(ADWD SPOILERS) Reek Chapters

[Ygritte's fur]

I do think they were the most well written of the book. I liked the way the chaper titles changed as he gets stronger too.... :)

Yes. Agreed. The Theon chapters were the strongest, IMHO. When Jojen first told Bran about the man smiling as he sliced off Bran and Rickon's faces: now that literally kept me up one night. I was afraid to sleep.

But while Ramsey is a scary dude, I thought these chapters were more notable for the way Martin brOught Theon back to life. I liked the way his different selves (Reek, Theon of Winterfell, Theon of Pyke) were competing for real estate in his brain.

I thought he also came around in terms of his thinking about Winterfell and the Starks. At one point he rationalizes "This was never my home. I was a hostage here." But in a later PoV we see: "The nearest thing to a home that remained to him was here, amongst the bones of Winterfell."

I didn't read the castration. He does mention losing fingers, toes "and that other thing."

Maybe one of his nuts. I read the lines about him not being a man were more about being psychicly broken than physically castrated.

[Ethan Dirtch]

Probably the most fascinating aspect of the Reek/Theon chapters was the thought: what if it was me? Would I buckle under the treament he received in the same way? It colored all my reactions to the story as told from his point of view. I really enjoyed the Reek/Theon chapters in a way I didn't enjoy the rest of aDwD - the character grabbed me more thoroughly than any of the others in this book.

Yeah, it was a nice study on someone who had been so thoroughly broken fighting AGAINST himself before finding his humanity again. It was a very good read, I thought. It did a few things: the first is that it made Theon a more sympathetic character, regardless of what he did to everyone's favorite Northron Family. Second, it setup Ramsay as THE new 'it' guy for hate (which, at least to me, was previously held by Theon himself for awhile for his adolescent pride and blustering). Ramsay will get his, and it may even come from Theon, but it'd be more bittersweet if Theon simply witnessed the man's end, or otherwise had a hand in it, i.e. providing the evidence necessary to put the man on the chopping block for instance.

I didn't read the castration. He does mention losing fingers, toes "and that other thing."

Maybe one of his nuts. I read the lines about him not being a man were more about being psychicly broken than physically castrated.

yeah, I agree with you in that it's more of a psychological thing. Again, as I said earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if Theon did in fact get castrated, but at this point it just seems redundant in misery. Had he not been so thoroughly tortured and lost x-number of digits and toes already, it might have left more of an emotional impact, but at this point it'd just be gratuitous and a lesson in wanton and excessive misery. It'd be enough for him to have the damage he has while still being a prisoner and never gaining the respect of the north folk until some daring, possibly suicidal, endeavor earns him their favor once again.

[Rinso]

Whenever Theon is a POV character, he's one of the best POVs in the book. It was true both in ACOK and here. I don't know, maybe it's just in the eye of the beholder, but he's one of the best characters GRRM has made so far, easily amongst the best POVs. In AGOT and ACOK he was a good representation of a grey character, but in ADWD George just made one of the most vicariously gut-wrenching subplots in the whole series. In large part, the North Story was great because of Theon.

I wouldn't say I had exactly a hard time reading about him, because it was just so well-written. His POV offered a lot of insight into the lesser lords of the North, gave us a true monster in Ramsay, fleshed out the previous generation of Starks (I think I would have liked Brandon Stark as a character, and that comes from a sworn Stark-despiser) and gave a lot of great moments (I love his reunion with Asha and I can't wait to see how their relationship will evolve from here on (assuming they are still alive, but I'm on the opinion that Ramsay's letter was a lie and a calculated risk, and Theon, Jeyne, Asha and Stannis are all together and alive as of the end of ADWD)). The brutal torments he had to endure hopefully will satisfy all his haters (I was never one of them, but I can't say I liked him as a person either).

As for the, ah, matter down there, I too thought that Ramsay may have cut his cock off. It seems like something he would totally do, especially knowing how much Theon enjoyed having sex. The idea that he flayed it... is even more fitting and horrible :stillsick:

I was never one to say such naive things, but I truly hope that GRRM has some very sick death in store for Ramsay.

[white_walker]

I was never fond of Theon and after the sacking of Winterfell I stopped paying attention in his chapters. However, in Dance I got completely caught up in Reek. What really caught me was when Roose told him he was going to get him a bath and new clothes and Reek freaked! I felt horrible that he had been broken down so much that the man was afraid to bathe and be seen. Which leads me to believe he was not only gelded, but possibly flayed in patches all over his body.

I think the letter from the Boltons is a fake. I don't believe Stannis is dead. I think Theon is sitting in the camp with his sister waiting for Stannis to make a decision and do something. I wonder what Asha will do when she finds out what has been done to Theon. She was never fond of him, but it is her brother.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

I found Theon's chapters to be the best writing in the novel. I simply loved his arc.

I do think he has some things left to do to fully redeem himself, but saving Jeyne was a nice start.

A man has to be in purgatory before he can understand, repent and be absolved of his sins. We're just now getting to the beginnings of that repetence and absolution.

I do think that Theon's chapters in ADwD had the effect of exposing the double-standard readers have regarding characters killing innocents.

Victarion has killed countless innocent people - do the people who hate Theon have the same attitude towards him and what he "deserves" at the hand of someone like Ramsay?

Stannis arguably has betrayed some of his own bannermen in the same way - do you think of his crimes in the same light? You could say he even allowed Mel to kill his own brother.

I think people personalize Winterfell because that's where the series started. Those miller's boys are no different than Sandor riding down Micah, Jaime attempting to murder Bran and only failing because of dumb luck, Stannis and Mel giving "heathens" to the fire.

[jons nissa]

I do think that Theon's chapters in ADwD had the effect of exposing the double-standard readers have regarding characters killing innocents.

Victarion has killed countless innocent people - do the people who hate Theon have the same attitude towards him and what he "deserves" at the hand of someone like Ramsay?

Stannis arguably has betrayed some of his own bannermen in the same way - do you think of his crimes in the same light? You could say he even allowed Mel to kill his own brother.

I think people personalize Winterfell because that's where the series started. Those miller's boys are no different than Sandor riding down Micah, Jaime attempting to murder Bran and only failing because of dumb luck, Stannis and Mel giving "heathens" to the fire.

actually my problem with theon is not the miller's boys. its his attacking winterfell in the first place and his killing of the very people he grew up with while living there. they may have been servants but they were truly innocent and had treated theon well. and, its the miller's boys, too.

as for the rest, victarion, stannis, jaime, etc, who says they got a pass?

[jons nissa]

Stannis ... You could say he even allowed Mel to kill his own brother.

could say?? HE DID!!!

he may not have told her to do what she did, but he has to be aware that something very wrong/evil happened that cannot be explained by normal means, which means mel's magic. i can only assume mel told him renly didn't have right on his side or something ridiculous like that and stannis turned a blind eye.

[Darth Dragonstone]

Martin took it too far; he should be embarrassed at how he sold out one of his best written characters for some cheap fanboy applause. His writing was overindulgent & sly, too. Repetitious about some forms of pain Theon experienced, but after strongly hinting that Theon's penis was flayed to the point where he begged for it to be cut off, ...he never once in the whole book has pain that emanates from the groin area. Some things dont make rational sense, like a man who was starved (& ate a live rat ..after only 3 days?) would turn away steak instead of mincing it & swallowing it. Or a man with shattered teeth would slurp mashed pea soup-age...which would stick to every exposed nerve in his broken grill & hurt like the bayjaybus.

And of course Spittle-Flecked Lips, who has widely been referred to on the board as "cartoonish" in his villainy, keeps upping the shocking abuse. Oh noes! Shocking abuse is meant to shock us! "REEK!CATCH THIS ROTTTEN HEAD, REEK", "REEK! GO DOWN ON MY WIFE, REEK!", "REEK! IMMA CUT YOUR LIPS OFF WHEN WE GET BACK HOME, REEK!"

Out of all the disgusting shit he put the character through to give the fanboys their 2 lbs of flesh, literally, the worst for me was reading about him not being able to sleep & having a pounding headache...thats just miserable on a level that makes you want to put down the book & take some Excedrin.

Theon of course has had some effect on plot, more than peripheral but his highwater mark was the capture of Winterfell, which was a material part of the destruction and disperal of House Stark. In other respects, his importance is mostly limited to giving us a POV on other key characters and developments in the story, chiefly the Boltons, and a reason for us to learn about the Iron Islands and set the stage for Victarion, who I think will prove to be the most important Ironman in the story.

I think perhaps even more important, his exploits and POV has shown us what happens to a guppy gets thrown in with sharks. Theon is surely young, handsome, athletic, likeable and not without some ability in martial arts and leadership. And he is not innately evil or duplicitous. Rather, he is led to poor judgment by his flaws -- he is young, callow, impetuous, vainglorious, etc... But he is simply smashed, crushed when he runs up against more substantive men.

I think Barristan Selmy would say of Theon what he said of Gerris Drinkwater. "False coin."

In Texas, we have another saying to capture the same essence. "All hat, no cattle."

Thus is Theon.

[Dragons Dancing]

I find the argument that he is damaged goods and can't possibly contribute anything of value now offensive. Just because someone is handicapped doesn't mean they are useless and should die. This what people like Hitler thought and acted on.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

I thought it was clear that Theon had been gelded by Ramsay.

Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."

For a moment he did not understand. "I... do you mean... m'lord, I have no... I..."

"With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. (p. 499)

This passage really leaves no room for doubt IMO.

Theon was definitely a villain in earlier books, but what Ramsay does to him is truly obscene. I'd say the Starks would be hard pressed to say that the wrongs done to Winterfell weren't fully avenged. I believe he will go on to be a linchpin in the overthrow of the Boltons. He may die doing it, though.

[Mark Antony]

I've always been a huge fan and sympathizer of Theon so maybe that's why I had such a hard time with what Ramsay did to him. I'm not faint of heart and rather enjoyed the Red Wedding, among other heinous acts of violence throughout the series. But I honestly almost could not continue reading about Reek/Theon. That level of physical and emotional torture and human suffering hurt my heart and made me almost ill. I was so sad for him. At one point, he prays to a weirwood tree and I actually cried real tears (I've only done this once ever in my life and it was the book Outsiders. Ha!)

Am I the only one that had such a hard time with this?

Also, for those of you that hated Theon post ADwD, has your opinion changed or are you feeling like he's getting all he deserves?

And one more question...Did Ramsay cut off Theons, uh, you know...His manhood? I couldn't tell if that was the case or not.

My PM's dont work, Freakin out hah

[Jeejee]

Theon of course has had some effect on plot, more than peripheral but his highwater mark was the capture of Winterfell, which was a material part of the destruction and disperal of House Stark. In other respects, his importance is mostly limited to giving us a POV on other key characters and developments in the story, chiefly the Boltons, and a reason for us to learn about the Iron Islands and set the stage for Victarion, who I think will prove to be the most important Ironman in the story.

I think perhaps even more important, his exploits and POV has shown us what happens to a guppy gets thrown in with sharks. Theon is surely young, handsome, athletic, likeable and not without some ability in martial arts and leadership. And he is not innately evil or duplicitous. Rather, he is led to poor judgment by his flaws -- he is young, callow, impetuous, vainglorious, etc... But he is simply smashed, crushed when he runs up against more substantive men.

I think Barristan Selmy would say of Theon what he said of Gerris Drinkwater. "False coin."

In Texas, we have another saying to capture the same essence. "All hat, no cattle."

Thus is Theon.

I think this is a pretty great description. Since he's likely to remain a POV, I imagine we'll begin to see a different side of Theon.

I find the argument that he is damaged goods and can't possibly contribute anything of value now offensive. Just because someone is handicapped doesn't mean they are useless and should die. This what people like Hitler thought and acted on.

I doubt anyone is arguing this. The "damaged goods" most likely refers to his mental state which is, frankly, a legitimate concern if he intends to rule.

[Knight of Ashes]

I find the argument that he is damaged goods and can't possibly contribute anything of value now offensive. Just because someone is handicapped doesn't mean they are useless and should die. This what people like Hitler thought and acted on.

oh for R'hollor's sakes- if this is in reference to my post about how Theon's story should end where it is- what I meant was I preferred what he said last to Asha as the last time we see him rather than, say,- some cornball,final confrontation with Ramsay or something.

[Domenceus]

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[Aelinor]

I would have found it to be poetic justice had it been the woman who forced him to please her. As it is, it wasn't likely a pleasant experience for Jeyne, even if it was supposed to "get her ready."

[Kalasin]

Honestly, I've never hated Theon, although his ASoS chapters weren't my favorites. He's an unappealing character and has made bad decisions, but there have been a lot of things that happened in his life to make him that way, and he clearly struggles internally with his own loyalties and desires. Which is not to defend him or say that he's secretly good or that he doesn't have to answer for what he did, because he does. But I never found him outright despicable like some of the other characters. He's a weak guy in a tough spot with dreams of glory, and he does some really stupid stuff as a result. But he definitely has some good in him and some love for the Starks. He just also has weaknesses and jealousies and desperation and this inability to get things right, and he lets that stuff take over. I think he's one of the more human characters in the book, to be honest.

So him as Reek just broke my heart. I found it by far the most affecting part of the book, and some of the best writing GRRM has ever done in getting us to really feel the fear and pain. Those chapters were really beautiful in their devastation. It will be interesting to see how he is now as Theon again, and how his time with Ramsay has and hasn't changed him.

[Domenceus]

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[Kalasin]

oh for R'hollor's sakes- if this is in reference to my post about how Theon's story should end where it is- what I meant was I preferred what he said last to Asha as the last time we see him rather than, say,- some cornball,final confrontation with Ramsay or something.

For a while there I thought he'd get killed by Jon when Jon goes south. I think his story will probably end either with that or with some kind of confrontation with Bran. At least, it's a possibility.

[inkasrain]

I would have found it to be poetic justice had it been the woman who forced him to please her. As it is, it wasn't likely a pleasant experience for Jeyne, even if it was supposed to "get her ready."

Agreed. It's ironic in its way, but given that Jeyne is basically about to be raped (and Theon wants no part of what he's forced to participate in either) I don't think the words "poetic" or "justice" apply at all.

[Domenceus]

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