Jump to content

[ADwD Spoilers] Dany Criticism Before and After ADWD


Recommended Posts

One of the main criticisms of Dany's character has always been that she is a Mary Sue. Said to be good at everything she tries, all of her opponents are evil, and she has no real flaws. For those who felt she was a Mary Sue before ADWD, do you still think she is? She makes tons of mistakes in ADWD. She's naive, maybe even delusional at times. Chronically indecisive. Her first chapter in the book ends with the results of a major mistake (not training or restraining her dragons) and things only go downhill from there. Her response, to just lock them away and give up on Drogon, that was wrong too. She also made a HUGE mistake thinking she could just move in and rule Meereen. In her final chapter she finally realizes she was wrong about that and Jorah was right. When she flies away things start going even worse. Nothing she does works out and it's not bad luck or tragic circumstances, it is the mistakes of a young, tired, flawed girl. Not to mention her romantic choices.

I'm not asking if people like her or not. I gather even more people dislike her now than did before, and she always had a lot of detractors. But is she still a Mary Sue?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, i can't say she is a Mary sue anymore, with her taste in men, lousy leadership skills, and her naivety. But I won't deny that if her situation ends like most people think it will, with her getting a new horde of dothraki, that it won't bother me. She made mistakes, she screwed up big, but she still gets a new horde of dothraki to serve her, kind of bothers me that even when she makes huge mistakes she still gets more power, while when other people make mistakes they end up dead (Robb, Ned, Jon).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know about being a Mary Sue, but she's self-absorbed, narcissistic and convinced she actually has the right to change whole cultures and societies to her liking (she doesn't). All in all, she's on an extremely high horse, especially considering her ancestral background and her immediate family (father, brothers, husband - complete assholes all). That was since book one. The difference in ADWD was that she was also given an inadequate love interest that made her look like a complete idiot and an unwillingness to actually learn from her mistakes (because, after all, she can't make mistakes).

The only thing that made me happy is that everything crumbled around her. She made the Slaver's Bay a worse place than it was before, she lost any chance in winning Dorne's friendship, she essentially lost two of her dragons, and now she's where she began - at the mercy of a Dothraki savage. I hope Jhaqo would kill her (prefferably at the very beginning of TWOW, so I won't suffer any more of her chapters), but in all likelyhood, she'll just fuck her way back into power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know about being a Mary Sue, but she's self-absorbed, narcissistic and convinced she actually has the right to change whole cultures and societies to her liking (she doesn't). All in all, she's on an extremely high horse, especially considering her ancestral background and her immediate family (father, brothers, husband - complete assholes all). That was since book one. The difference in ADWD was that she was also given an inadequate love interest that made her look like a complete idiot and an unwillingness to actually learn from her mistakes (because, after all, she can't make mistakes).

The only thing that made me happy is that everything crumbled around her. She made the Slaver's Bay a worse place than it was before, she lost any chance in winning Dorne's friendship, she essentially lost two of her dragons, and now she's where she began - at the mercy of a Dothraki savage. I hope Jhaqo would kill her (prefferably at the very beginning of TWOW, so I won't suffer any more of her chapters), but in all likelyhood, she'll just fuck her way back into power.

If I was a fifteen-year-old girl with pet fire-breathing dragons who was also the heir of an ancient royal dynasty and brought up to believe that my pedigree entitled me to respect and the Iron Throne of Westeros, and I found a city where the roads were lined with crucified slaves, I might want to change the local culture too. One, Dany is immature. Two, she was never taught to be a ruler, only a Targaryen heir. Three, the idea that it is wrong to change cultures is a modern one; not one that gets much abstract discussion in GRRM's world, outside of specific traditions that people might be reluctant to change. (like the Commander of the Night's Watch brokering a Northern lord's daughter's to a Wilding being a departure from tradition)

I'm not sure that Drogon would take kindly to Khal Jhoquo killing Dany; so the Khal will have to be more subtle. If he's capable of it.

If Dany is still blundering around Essos making mistakes left and right with her uncontrollable dragons in five years of her time, then I'll lose patience with her (and GRRM)...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Generally the people who were complaining about her in this book are not the same ones who thought that she was a mary sue.

The people who called her a Mary Sue probably hate her even more now because she was a moron in ADWD. Basically, I think there is a large group of people who are unhappy with ADWD Dany, and one subset of that group is comprised of the many people who said they didn't like her because she was a Mary Sue. I want to know if they still think she is a Mary Sue. I'm assuming they still don't like her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I was a fifteen-year-old girl with pet fire-breathing dragons who was also the heir of an ancient royal dynasty and brought up to believe that my pedigree entitled me to respect and the Iron Throne of Westeros, and I found a city where the roads were lined with crucified slaves, I might want to change the local culture too.

Her pedigree comes from an evil empire who sent slaves to mine inside active volcanoes. She has no right to think herself better than the Ghiskari on account of blood and birth. Even a lot of her more immediate forefathers and relatives were hardly paragons of admiring virtues. Her husband, who was always dear to her heart, is a killer and pillager who himself supported slavery and was going to fund her return to Westeros with gold made in slave trade. The fact that the Ghiskari treated slaves inexcusably cruelly doesn't give her the right to be the judge, jury and executioner of the Slaver Bay.

One, Dany is immature. Two, she was never taught to be a ruler, only a Targaryen heir.

Which doesn't stop her in thinking of herself as the rightful ruler both of the Slaver Bay and Westeros. The only right she will ever have will be the right of a conquering warlord, that's all she's good for.

Three, the idea that it is wrong to change cultures is a modern one; not one that gets much abstract discussion in GRRM's world, outside of specific traditions that people might be reluctant to change. (like the Commander of the Night's Watch brokering a Northern lord's daughter's to a Wilding being a departure from tradition)

By this logic the Ghiskari treated their slaves justly - this is their way of life for thousands of years and this is how they do things. If Dany has the moral right to come and ruin the Slaver's Bay, then so did they when they attacked Missandei's island and enslaved her or when they crucified the slaves in Dany's path etc. Bottom line is that Dany is a foreigner who knows nothing of them other than "They're teh evilz!11!1" and who presumed to judge them from atop her high horse and proclaim herself their ruler without knowing anything about ruling and showed no serious desire to actually learn ("Pfff, I hate the floppy ears.", "Pfff, another ugly Meereeneese comes to complain, can't they see how bored I am?", "Pfff, I wonder what Daario's asshole tastes like..." etc. - this was the way she ruled).

I'm not sure that Drogon would take kindly to Khal Jhoquo killing Dany; so the Khal will have to be more subtle. If he's capable of it.

And I'm not sure that I'll take kindly to having to read another two books worth of her whining. So, go Jhogo, rid me of this bitch! Not going to happen, I know, but a man has to keep his hopes up, no? Gooo Jhogo!!!

If Dany is still blundering around Essos making mistakes left and right with her uncontrollable dragons in five years of her time, then I'll lose patience with her (and GRRM)...

I lost patience with her in ADWD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I never thought she was a Mary Sue, and never stopped liking her even after the mistakes she made in ADwD. Then again, she is my favourite character, mainly because of her idealism and concern for the smallfolk, and also because she managed to make the most of a really lousy situation when she got married to Khal Drogo. She is a teenager that grew up on the run, without either of her parents, brought up by an elder brother who was a less than ideal role model, and even teenagers who grow up in solid family environments are bound to make mistakes. Hell, I made some awful mistakes when I was way older than her, but thankfully I'm still alive and kicking!

Seriously, though, I think that it was intentional on the part of Martin to show a sort of regression in her character, in order to have her learn from her mistakes and become a better ruler. I also think the key to her future character development lies in her last POV chapter in ADwD, when - faced with a very difficult, potentially fatal situation - she realizes her mistakes and wrong choices, most of all her obstinacy as regards staying in Meereen instead of heading to Westeros. In a way, I see that chapter as a parallel to the final chapter of AGoT, when she literally rises from the ashes and (as Illyrio puts it in one of the first Tyrion POV chapters) is reborn in blood and fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was one of those who have laughed over Dany & Jon's plot armour way back when in those far off pre-ADWD days so I'm fairly pleased with their development in ADWD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dany has always struck me as an annoying flaky tween. ADWD only reinforced that opinion. But Martin is adept at purposefully making characters that rub the wrong way and evolving them. I hope Dany evolves soon, b/c the only interesting thing about her right now is her dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Calling Dany a Mary Sue is absurd. A Mary Sue is an author avatar - like the author, only cooler, better and more powerful. George RR Martin is not and has not ever been a 15 year old girl. If we were to look for Mary Sues in his work we might examine the following:

Tyrion - not much like the author physically but clearly a great favourite of his.

Sam - one wonders whether the rather-large and nerdy GRRM was ever a bullied fat kid. Sam always comes out ahead despite all the odds, and is one of the nicest, and most intelligent characters in the series.

Lord Manderly - I could not help but imagine Lord Manderly as looking a bit like GRRM. Manderly's looks belie his intelligence and bad-assery. And the Frey pie made him awesome.

None of these quite fit as a Mary Sue since GRRM is too good an author just to put himself in the story.

The reason people think of Mary Sues as 15 year old girls is that most terrible self-insert fanfic is written by 15 year old girls, not because being a 15 year old girl has anything to do with a character being a Mary Sue. I wish this common misconception would go away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say this: many people seem to be like, ludicrously pissed off that Dany still has the hots for Daario. Which... I can totally get, he's a bum sellsword, she's the Mother of Dragons. Clearly homegirl is out of his league. I, however, was practically fist-pumping when she finally got that UST over with and actually slept with him. Yeah, you go, Dany! I'm happy my girl finally got laid :kiss: :leer: (Then again, I tend to function as the best friend of POVs so my opinion might be unique)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Calling Dany a Mary Sue is absurd. A Mary Sue is an author avatar - like the author, only cooler, better and more powerful. George RR Martin is not and has not ever been a 15 year old girl. If we were to look for Mary Sues in his work we might examine the following:

Tyrion - not much like the author physically but clearly a great favourite of his.

Sam - one wonders whether the rather-large and nerdy GRRM was ever a bullied fat kid. Sam always comes out ahead despite all the odds, and is one of the nicest, and most intelligent characters in the series.

Lord Manderly - I could not help but imagine Lord Manderly as looking a bit like GRRM. Manderly's looks belie his intelligence and bad-assery. And the Frey pie made him awesome.

None of these quite fit as a Mary Sue since GRRM is too good an author just to put himself in the story.

The reason people think of Mary Sues as 15 year old girls is that most terrible self-insert fanfic is written by 15 year old girls, not because being a 15 year old girl has anything to do with a character being a Mary Sue. I wish this common misconception would go away.

Completely agree with your assessment of the Mary Sue phenomenom.

As to Dany, I never believed her a Mary Sue for many reasons even beside the above, not least of which because she is the sworn enemy of the series' main protagonists in House Stark. The good guys never hate a Sue. Also, Sue's are rarely as ruthless, pragmatic and... treacherous as Dany was in ASOS. I was dissapointed with her in ADWD. But mainly because she abandoned the aforementioned traits in favour of compromise, peace and gentleness.

I miss my bloodthirsty conquerer Dany, last heir of the greatest dynasty in history. Heres hoping TWOW sees her return.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Calling Dany a Mary Sue is absurd. A Mary Sue is an author avatar - like the author, only cooler, better and more powerful. George RR Martin is not and has not ever been a 15 year old girl.

There are many definitions to the term 'Mary Sue':

Wikipedia

TVTropes + Article on their common traits

While there are many meanings and subtypes, with no clear consensus, the general trend is that it is an idealised character who serves as wish fulfillment but in an unrealistically positive manner and who has no genuine flaws (instead, being informed flaws, flaws that aren't really flaws such as being 'too beautiful', flaws that are easily overcome, etc). Mary Sues generally stand out physically as well by having unique hair and eye colours, unique abilities, cool/exotic pets, exotic names, etc; and has a tendency of becoming the centre of focus wherever she goes.

In addition, there's a special brand of Mary Sues called Anti-Sues who invert all or nearly all of the common Mary Sue traits to the point of seemingly having all negative characteristics with no redeeming value; while still possessing many of the Mary Sue's intrinsic/less concrete traits like remaining the centre of focus despite the lack of positive traits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She's doing pretty well in the ASoIaF Monster stakes. There aren't many people who can claim they've spread death, famine, disease and general destruction across a whole continent in just a few short months like she has. Now all she has to do is transfer to Westeros and start killing the people there too. Personally, I believe she can do it. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Longtime Daenerys hater here. Did anybody else get really and irrationally angry at her "Stark was a traitor who died a traitor's death" comments to Selmy? I get that Ned rebelled against her father and played a huge part in overthrowing her family's dynasty -- but, listen, lady, your dad kind of fried Ned's dad, strangled his brother, and your brother by popular account (which we the reader know to be wrong but Dany doesn't) kidnapped Ned's sister. Also, he tried to save your life when Robert wanted to kill you. It made me want to talk to some sense into the woman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Longtime Daenerys hater here. Did anybody else get really and irrationally angry at her "Stark was a traitor who died a traitor's death" comments to Selmy? I get that Ned rebelled against her father and played a huge part in overthrowing her family's dynasty -- but, listen, lady, your dad kind of fried Ned's dad, strangled his brother, and your brother by popular account (which we the reader know to be wrong but Dany doesn't) kidnapped Ned's sister. Also, he tried to save your life when Robert wanted to kill you. It made me want to talk to some sense into the woman.

Talk sense to Queen Cersei with three dragons? It wont be a taunt if I say " Greater men than you have tried and failed" :grouphug:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...