[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 2 - Spoilers for ADWD

[Ser Howsmelly]

Keep in mind, more than a couple of the Northern lords, or their families are aware of what the Bastard of Bolton did to...who was it? I want to say Lady Glover but that would be wrong. It had Rodrick all pissed off.

It was Lady Hornwood. Widowed. He abducted/married her in order to claim her lands and title. Ser Rodrik would've been personally aggrieved because she seemed to show some interest in him when she passed through Winterfell.

[Hound Reborn]

I wonder who will become the new Lord of Winterfell?? Will it be one of the Karstarks or will Bran come back in time to stake his claim before someone else becomes Lord? Thoughts?

[Lady Winter Rose]

I wonder who will become the new Lord of Winterfell?? Will it be one of the Karstarks or will Bran come back in time to stake his claim before someone else becomes Lord? Thoughts?

I hope Bran will be Lord Of Winterfell, then Rickon, but always as Lady Protector: Lady Arya Stark.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Short question: Is Jon falling in love with Melisandre.?

[Ran]

I don't think so. I think he's very wary and scared of her. At the same time, though, he's a young man, and she is a very exotic and very, very beautiful woman. So I suppose some part of him responds to that -- he's not made of ice -- but that's an unwanted reaction and nothing I'd see him indulging.

[Crowboy]

Maybe he's developing a preference for red haired women...

[Lord Varys]

That is a totally open question I think. The whole 'You know nothing Jon Snow' line is quite foreshadowing, and also the fact that Ygritte had red hair. We have to keep in mind that Jon's knowledge about the creepy deeds of Melisandre is just gossip. He has not yet seen her in 'action. And he will choose get to know her by himself, to make his own choice about her. The whole burning stuff certainly is not going to entice him that much, but if she proves to be loyal to him, the cause of the Night's Watch I really can see him starting to trust her. Especially if she really is helping him to uncover a plot among the NW against his life, or outright saving his life with some spell.

Actually, I really would like to see Jon Snow and Melisandre of Asshai to be (for a time) the unofficial King and Queen of the Wall, mostly because I find the Melisandre to be most creepy, and I really would like to see if she actually is still human...

And it would be interesting to see if Melisandre really is capable of love.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Oh, mistaken.

[Lundy]

Hello there. I haven't been here in aeons and I doubt anyone remembers me, but Hi again anyway. (and wasn't there a board previous to this one Ran?)

I read somewhere on this board that GRRM stated Jon would become a greyer character in ADwD. I find that intriguing. Can't wait to read how that comes about. I just re-read the Jon sample chapter at GRRM's website and what sticks in my memory at the moment is Stannis telling Jon;

"Keep your ruins, as they mean so much to you. I promise you, though, if any remain empty when the year is out, I will take them with your leave or without it. And if even one should fall to the foe, your head will soon follow. Now get out."

What if a castle falls and Stannis attempts to carry out his threat? Or there is talk of it... I can't see Jon *ever* finding a reason to leave the wall, but if he's a greyer character... makes me ponder.

[Lady Winter Rose]

"Keep your ruins, as they mean so much to you. I promise you, though, if any remain empty when the year is out, I will take them with your leave or without it. And if even one should fall to the foe, your head will soon follow. Now get out."

What if a castle falls and Stannis attempts to carry out his threat? Or there is talk of it... I can't see Jon *ever* finding a reason to leave the wall, but if he's a greyer character... makes me ponder.

Stannis will take them with his leave or without it and Jon could do nothing.

[jurble]

I think all my writing is going to be in Comic Sans from now on.

[Lundy]

Stannis will take them with his leave or without it and Jon could do nothing.

"...And if even one should fall to the foe, your head will soon follow. Now get out."

I'm more interested in that ^^^^ part of Stannis' statement and his threat on Snow's head should a castle fall to the foe. 'course I guess Stannis enjoys threatening Snow's head... (ha ha)

Still looking for thoughts on how Snow's character will go grayer. Thoughts, anyone?

[MightilyOats]

He'll probably just going to do more morally questionable things.

Using Gilly's kid as a stand-in was just the tip of the iceberg, he's going to find out what it really means to be a lord.

And commander.

A lord commander.

[Lundy]

Thanks for responding y'all.

[Dragonfish]

Hi all, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I just wanted to share a small theory with the board that I came up with during one of my recent re-reads. Sorry if someone else has already posted about this, I used the search function and came up with nothing.

Anyway, my mini-theory has to do with the whole "two kings to wake the dragon" quote from the Jon spoiler chapter on GRRM's website. Specifically, it has to do with the part that says "the father first and then the son, so both die kings." Several people have tried to interpret this as referring to Dany and the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego, but, as has been said before, that interpretation doesn't really work since Rhaego died before Drogo and not after.

However, what if this prophecy (if it is indeed a prophecy) refers to the deaths of Khals Ogo and Fogo, the ones killed by Drogo in one of the later Daenerys chapters? After all, it was the injury that Drogo took in his fight with them that indirectly lead to the birth of Dany's dragons. And the fact that Fogo was killed after his father, thereby making him khal when he died, is mentioned at least twice by two different characters. Now, I realize this may seem like a bit of a stretch, since these khals' deaths probably didn't contribute anything directly to the birth of the dragons (as the deaths of Drogo and MMD did). But remember, we don't actually know how this prophecy is worded. For all we know, it could say something along the lines "First one kings dies, then another, his son, then come the dragons," or something more eloquent. It's easy to see how Melisandre might misinterpret a prophecy worded this way as saying "in order to wake dragons, you must kill two kings," while in reality it is saying that each of these events follow closely on the heels of the other. In other words, the deaths of Ogo and Fogo may simply have been harbingers of, rather than direct contributors to, the birth of Dany's dragons.

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this.

[Lundy]

What about the deaths of Drogo and Viserys?

Sorry if that's dumb, I haven't had a chance to catch up on all the theories on this board yet.

[Dragonfish]

Well, I could see how the death of Viserys might fit, since he and his father both died kings, but I'm not sure what you mean by including the death of Drogo. Could you maybe clarify this part a bit?

[Lundy]

So sorry my previous post (now gone) was from a tired, sick brain-dead person... feeling better now. One thing that bugs me about all the "prophecies" in this series is, why do we have to take them so literally? What if they could be subject to... say, artistic interpretation?

[Lundy]

So Stannis and lady red mean to burn Mance and his babe. Stupid methinks as Mance is no true king, just a turncloak. Why would lady red ('cause I can't recall how to spell her name) want to waste her energy on such a charade? To fool or continue fooling Stannis? Is Stannis truly that foolish? Seems too simple for a GRRM plot point... guess I need to search the board for the theories in question.

On another thread Masha asked; "Why did Khal Drogo count toward Dany's dragons - did he have enough power to be considered the king of Dothraki or being Khal - warlord/chieftan was enough?"

I have the same doubts, just as I doubt Mance and his son are sufficient. *shrug*

[Prince of the North]

...she is a very exotic and very, very beautiful woman...

But, of course, that beauty is nothing more than an illusion like everything else about Melisandre Hopefully, Jon figures it out before it's too late.

(And, before anyone gets up in arms about how we don't "know" this, of course we don't. I fully admit that. It's simply my opinion.)