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Jon Targaryen

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 2 - Spoilers for ADWD

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Melisandre's powers are not an illusion. She predicted the outcome of the battle of the blackwater, created many shadow assassins, and used leeches to kill off three kings. Her similarity to Ygritte is either a random coincidence (Unlikely), or something orchestrated by Melisandre and her Red God. Melisandre and her God seems to have much power, and it would be unfortunate if Jon endangered himself by opposing them.

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Her similarity to Ygritte is either a random coincidence (Unlikely), or something orchestrated by Melisandre and her Red God.

She has red hair, and is female. I think that is not beyond the bounds of coincidence.

Sansa fills those two, near enough!

Oh, and at least once she used the same catch-phrase (you know nothing...).

That could easily just be a female thing, or something she saw Ygritte say in the flames...

Any other similarities?

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Rain,

Actually ... it's widely believed that Melisandre had nothing to do with the deaths of the three kings. She put together this seeming ritual as a means to convince Stannis to do what she believed right (sacrificing Edric). What most think is that she saw their deaths in the flames (a power we know she has), and appropriated these deaths to make them look as if she had caused them with her powers.

But I do believe Melisandre is actually as beautiful as she looks (the red eyes and red hair may be art rather than nature, though; proof that Melisandre has a flair for theatrics?) rather than using some sort of magic spell.

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Melisandre's powers are not an illusion. She predicted the outcome of the battle of the blackwater, created many shadow assassins, and used leeches to kill off three kings. Her similarity to Ygritte is either a random coincidence (Unlikely), or something orchestrated by Melisandre and her Red God. Melisandre and her God seems to have much power, and it would be unfortunate if Jon endangered himself by opposing them.

While I agree with you that Melisandre does have power as such, I think that your analysis gives her too much power. We all agree that Melisandre does have the qualities of a prophet; she, as Ran said, is thought to have seen the deaths of the three kings in her flames amongst other things. I think one of the major visions that she has seen is Ygritte's message to Jon Snow: "You know nothing, Jon Snow".

She has been seen to use her powers to manipulate people before, I believe that she has manipulated Stannis into giving her more credence than she is worth in reference to the three kings example. She will do the same again to Jon Snow - proving to him that she has 'real' power but using the leverage that gets her to advance her own ends. It cannot be denied that Melisandre has a certain political savvy.

One thing that I think should be mentioned in regards to Melisandre, is that we have seen animated shadows associated with two characters in the series; the first is obviously Melisandre, the second is Mirri Maz Durr. Both of these characters have used shadows to bring death, whether it is the physical death of a character: Rhaego, Penrose and Renly or the sapping of life from a character: Stannis, Jorah and to a certain extent Drogo. Yet Melisandre claims that shadows are the creatures of the Lord of Light.

If we take into account Patchface's song, I think there must be some sort of intrinsic link between the shadows, death, blood magic and R'Hollar. I think it will be interesting to see if indeed Melisandre's PoV sheds any more light on these links.

But I do believe Melisandre is actually as beautiful as she looks (the red eyes and red hair may be art rather than nature, though; proof that Melisandre has a flair for theatrics?) rather than using some sort of magic spell.

I agree Ran. I think that Melisandre is definitely using her appearance to gain leverage - could this be a further example of her manipulative character trait?

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Maybe this is an absurd thought but what if Roose and Stannis unite? The Bolton's haven't sworn an oath of loyalty to Tommen, and it wouldn't be worth much to them anyway so why not?

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Melisandre could be beautiful as she looks, but she also could be regular woman who use glamur. I think she use glamur. Jon once notice that she has not regular albino eyes like Ghost so it's less likely that she is albino and dye her hair. My opinion is that Jon is falling in love with Melisandre, but I dislike the idea.

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Maybe this is an absurd thought but what if Roose and Stannis unite? The Bolton's haven't sworn an oath of loyalty to Tommen, and it wouldn't be worth much to them anyway so why not?

Well, it would be the best thing for the North, for sure. But I don't see what Stannis could give both of the Boltons they don't already have - without stepping out of his very narrow horizon, and: Stannis is currently not too serious a threat to them. And, of course, there could be trouble from the South, depending on the stability down there.

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Maybe this is an absurd thought but what if Roose and Stannis unite? The Bolton's haven't sworn an oath of loyalty to Tommen, and it wouldn't be worth much to them anyway so why not?

I'm still of the opinion that the armies of Stannis, the Boltons, and possibly even those of House Manderly, will end up decimating one another, leading to a full-scale invasion of the North by the Others when the Wall comes down. Jon Snow, in turn, will end up rallying the remaining northern forces and retreating south. At some point the story has to start economizing with respect to the amount of characters left and George has already promised somewhat of a bloodbath. Beyond that, I wonder whether Stannis and the Boltons can truly serve the story in a meaningful way going forward; to me they have already been fully established and served whatever purpose they were intended to serve -- it's time to cut the string.

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Ironborns, Boltons and Stannis forces would bring doom to themselves. All of them would fight until they are all dead and none of them would give up theirs "claim" or unite each other.

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the wall will stand as it has for thousands of years. Jon Snow will hold the wall.....by any means necessary

I think this would change the series from being an epic story, to being a so-so story. It totally discredits the meme that the real threat is from beyond the wall, if Jon, with the forces at hand, can defeat them at the wall. It would be like if the the Russians had defeated the Germans at their border in 1941. I think the reason they call it, "The Great Patriotic War" is, because they won despite the Germans getting as far as Stalingrad.

If Jon defeats the Others at the Wall, hardly anyone in Westeros will even know what happened, and I think that the arch should be that all of Westeros is involved.

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I think this would change the series from being an epic story, to being a so-so story. It totally discredits the meme that the real threat is from beyond the wall, if Jon, with the forces at hand, can defeat them at the wall. It would be like if the the Russians had defeated the Germans at their border in 1941. I think the reason they call it, "The Great Patriotic War" is, because they won despite the Germans getting as far as Stalingrad.

If Jon defeats the Others at the Wall, hardly anyone in Westeros will even know what happened, and I think that the arch should be that all of Westeros is involved.

Maybe...but it wasnt the russians that stopped the germans...in the end it was the russian winter...it stopped Napolean too. Either way because of what mel said to jon about enemies on every side I think there will be battles on both sides of the wall! And I think Lord Snow is a legend in the making...but your idea leaves the door open for the return of the first ranger and maybe other heroes.

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I think this would change the series from being an epic story, to being a so-so story. It totally discredits the meme that the real threat is from beyond the wall, if Jon, with the forces at hand, can defeat them at the wall.

If Wall falls down, Jon would have no credibility as a leader, so his career is done. He would not be leader or important person. He would be bastard son of traitor who could not do his work as a "scum" of Night Watch.

GRRM invested effort to tell story of Jon, bastard son of noble lord who is now Lord Commander of Night Watch, organisation of Westeros scum, criminals and traitor... of merely humans, and who is determinat to fight vs. legendary evil Others, who are believed to be dead, almost alone in darkness and winter, side by side with charmed and beautiful enchantress, powerful religious fanatic, alomost nuanced and bright...... With enemies on every side....

So, I think that if Jon remain on Wall, it would be much interesting story.

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If Wall falls down, Jon would have no credibility as a leader, so his career is done. He would not be leader or important person. He would be bastard son of traitor who could not do his work as a "scum" of Night Watch.

This is a possible reaction. However, I believe if the Wall were to fall down, the fault would lie with Stannis. As plot development, the story would definitely be more epic if the Wall fell and the Others entered Westeros. The best way to do this and keep the 'blame' off Jon would have the Wall fall due to some mistake made by Stannis and Melisandre, something outside Jon's control. I have always felt that having Melisandre who so represents fire, both magically and symbolically, stationed on the Wall is not a good mix.

The details of how this would happen haven't been spelt out. Perhaps a magical fire used against the Others goes out of control?

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This is a possible reaction. However, I believe if the Wall were to fall down, the fault would lie with Stannis. As plot development, the story would definitely be more epic if the Wall fell and the Others entered Westeros. The best way to do this and keep the 'blame' off Jon would have the Wall fall due to some mistake made by Stannis and Melisandre, something outside Jon's control. I have always felt that having Melisandre who so represents fire, both magically and symbolically, stationed on the Wall is not a good mix.

The details of how this would happen haven't been spelt out. Perhaps a magical fire used against the Others goes out of control?

I agree with this. I think Stannis will have Jon kicked out of the Night's Watch.

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Jon will be known for the fighting retreat from the North, and the number of people he saves, and the eventual defeat of the others. :)

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The details of how this would happen haven't been spelt out. Perhaps a magical fire used against the Others goes out of control?

The most obvious way would be the Horn of Joramun, that is rumored to be able to topple the wall. It does seem a bit high fantasy for the series, but you never know. It might have some relation to Euron's horn, which is clearly connected to fire. Or maybe Mance's horn was a bluff and Euron's horn is the real Horn of Joramun.

Who ended up with Mance's horn, Stannis or the Night's Watch?

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The most obvious way would be the Horn of Joramun, that is rumored to be able to topple the wall. It does seem a bit high fantasy for the series, but you never know. It might have some relation to Euron's horn, which is clearly connected to fire. Or maybe Mance's horn was a bluff and Euron's horn is the real Horn of Joramun.

Who ended up with Mance's horn, Stannis or the Night's Watch?

Jon captured the horn, so presumably it would be with the Night's Watch. In either case, that horn is destroyed in this very spoiler chapter, so I doubt that it's the real Horn of Winter.

Euron's horn is a candidate insofar as it's a horn, but it's covered in Valyrian glyphs, which is an odd thing for a King-Beyond-The-Wall from the Age of Heroes (who would have lived before the rise of Valyria) to put on his horn. More likely it is what Euron claims it is.

Of course, there's more than two horns. Sam has a horn as well.

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... or something orchestrated by Melisandre and her Red God. Melisandre and her God seems to have much power, and it would be unfortunate if Jon endangered himself by opposing them.

I think we really shouldn´t count R´hllor as real entity. GRRM has habit to toss outlandish fantasy element here and there but this would be too out of the atmosphere of the story."R´hllorists" have their magical lore but it´s not necessary for their deity to exist.

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I think we really shouldn´t count R´hllor as real entity. GRRM has habit to toss outlandish fantasy element here and there but this would be too out of the atmosphere of the story."R´hllorists" have their magical lore but it´s not necessary for their deity to exist.

I agree. A lot of what "R'hllor" does can be accomplished by other mages who don't follow the red god. Quaithe is a shadowbinder like Melisandre, and she never references R'hllor. Daenerys has a bracelet that makes her immune to poison, just like Melisandre. Many characters (the Ghost of the High Heart, Jojen, many Targaryens, etc.) have seen glimpses of the future, just like Melisandre. There was a street performer in Qarth capable of doing powerful acts of fire magic, just like Melisandre. So there's no indication that R'hllor really exists.

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