A Few Things To Get Off My Chest

[AsshaiKnight]

I've just finished Jon's second last chapter of the book, and there's a few niggling things going on in my mind.

They are are follows:

1: When Stannis mentions to Jon that Robb would have still be alive if he had not decided to play King and take the Riverlands, Jon replies 'I loved Robb'

Did I miss something, or was this the first time anyone has mentioned to Jon of his brother's death? Coz it seems to me he took it pretty well. I went back to the last two or three of Jon's chapters and in none does it mention Robb's death. He believed the wolf he seen to be Bran's, meaning he's aware Bran is alive, but I felt cheated because I was excited for the moment when he would be told that Robb had named him his successor...and that didn't happen either...

2: When Sansa goes with Littlefinger to the Fingers and they meet Lysa...am I the only one who thinks that Catelyn's sister was acting a little...out of character? She seemed like a very different person when we meet her in the Eyrie, not at all like the character I read about in Sansa's chapter. Also, when people in the book talk about the Vale when the Tully sisters and Baelish were in their youth, I always got the sense that Petyr was a weasely little perv and that the Tully sisters took pitty on him most of the time. Now I'm supposed to believe that not only did he take Catelyn's maidenhead, but apparently Lysa's madly in love with him and always has been? Something doesn't add up....also, in Catelyn's chapters she repeatedly makes reference to the night when Ned took her maidenhead...but this is internal narrative, and not actual dialogue, and so must be true, right? I mean, who is she lying to? So Littlefinger must be lying about this at least, but why? And why would he want to take part in Joffrey's death when it was him that tried to encourage Ned Stark to allow Joffrey to take the throne?

3: What the hell happened to Davos?????? Is he dead?? Was he the guy who got burned so the winds would carry Stannis north???

4: Where the hell is Benjen Stark????? (He's Coldhands, isn't he?? He must be! But why isn't he showing himself??)

[Robb_]

1. I think we're supposed to assume that Jon finds out about Robb's death in between chapters, which is really annoying because I was really looking forward to the part where he finds out.

2. The majority of this is answered in Sansa's final chapter in SoS.

3. I can't think of what has happened to Davos at the stage you're up to so won't say anything.

4. Most people assume he is Coldhands, but where I'm up to so far (first chapter of AFFC), there has been no mention of him.

[Alexia]

I've just finished Jon's second last chapter of the book, and there's a few niggling things going on in my mind.

They are are follows:

1: When Stannis mentions to Jon that Robb would have still be alive if he had not decided to play King and take the Riverlands, Jon replies 'I loved Robb'

Did I miss something, or was this the first time anyone has mentioned to Jon of his brother's death? Coz it seems to me he took it pretty well. I went back to the last two or three of Jon's chapters and in none does it mention Robb's death. He believed the wolf he seen to be Bran's, meaning he's aware Bran is alive, but I felt cheated because I was excited for the moment when he would be told that Robb had named him his successor...and that didn't happen either...

2: When Sansa goes with Littlefinger to the Fingers and they meet Lysa...am I the only one who thinks that Catelyn's sister was acting a little...out of character? She seemed like a very different person when we meet her in the Eyrie, not at all like the character I read about in Sansa's chapter. Also, when people in the book talk about the Vale when the Tully sisters and Baelish were in their youth, I always got the sense that Petyr was a weasely little perv and that the Tully sisters took pitty on him most of the time. Now I'm supposed to believe that not only did he take Catelyn's maidenhead, but apparently Lysa's madly in love with him and always has been? Something doesn't add up....also, in Catelyn's chapters she repeatedly makes reference to the night when Ned took her maidenhead...but this is internal narrative, and not actual dialogue, and so must be true, right? I mean, who is she lying to? So Littlefinger must be lying about this at least, but why? And why would he want to take part in Joffrey's death when it was him that tried to encourage Ned Stark to allow Joffrey to take the throne?

3: What the hell happened to Davos?????? Is he dead?? Was he the guy who got burned so the winds would carry Stannis north???

4: Where the hell is Benjen Stark????? (He's Coldhands, isn't he?? He must be! But why isn't he showing himself??)

Some answers to your Sansa questions:

He didn't take Catelyn's maidenhead. Tyrion tells Catelyn that he's been bragging about taking both of their maidenheads, though. IIRC, LF even brags about it to LF's face in ACOK. But Catelyn tells us herself that she gave Ned her maidenhead. It seems, based on Sansa's final chapter, that he got drunk and mistook Lysa for Catelyn.

LF wants Joffrey dead because Joffrey is a loose cannon. He didn't want Stannis on the throne, but Joffrey is just as dangerous.

Lysa is as delightfully nutty as ever. Why did you think she was out of character?

[AsshaiKnight]

Some answers to your Sansa questions:

He didn't take Catelyn's maidenhead. Tyrion tells Catelyn that he's been bragging about taking both of their maidenheads, though. IIRC, LF even brags about it to LF's face in ACOK. But Catelyn tells us herself that she gave Ned her maidenhead. It seems, based on Sansa's final chapter, that he got drunk and mistook Lysa for Catelyn.

LF wants Joffrey dead because Joffrey is a loose cannon. He didn't want Stannis on the throne, but Joffrey is just as dangerous.

Lysa is as delightfully nutty as ever. Why did you think she was out of character?

Well, I suppose, however...

I don't buy the loose cannon thing, though. I understand that Joffrey was a loose cannon but this would have been apparent even before Ned's death, especially to someone as apparently clued in as Littlefinger seems to be. What changed between Ned's death (which Littlefinger saw coming) and Joffrey's wedding? Didn't Littlefinger stand to gain more by remaining with the Lannisters? After all, he was granted the title of Lord for a start, even though Harrenhal was a bit of an poised chalice and an empty promise. He told Sansa, by way of explanation, that it was wise to make moves that don't even make sense and that you don't appear to profit from in order to keep your enemies guessing what you'll do next, but I can't help but think his part in Joffrey's death was a little forced, from a narrative standpoint. He doesn't really gain anything unless the final Sansa chapter has some twists in store which may explain it.

As for Lysa...yeah okay, she was a bit nutty in AGoT, true. But in a different sense. She was paranoid, erratic, cold and stubborn. A pretty horrible person, really! In ASoS, she's just...well, a silly little child, I suppose. It totally flipped perspective for me, because I always envisioned Littlefinger would have a job on his hands trying to woo Lysa. I thought she had always viewed him as weird little Petyr, which is reasonable based on the little we heard of their childhood in the Vale! But then all of a sudden she's demanding he marry her on the spot, then and there. And he's the one trying to play it down! And then there's the sex scene, which was completely at odds with how I imagined Lysa's cold, bitter demeanor.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Lysa would travel down from the Eyrie to the Fingers just to see Petyr when she couldn't even send a raven in response to her dying father at Riverrun, much less travel there! Which makes sense as she's paranoid since there's a war going on, and last I heard about her she has holed herself up in the Eyrie. Why leave now? And without Robert! The son she smothered and spoiled in AGoT?? Nah, I just don't see that happening.

[Kaisia]

I remember from one of the earlier books some memory where Catelyn and Lysa, when they were girls, had been kissing Littlefinger (just as kids playing around), and Catelyn was really put off by it but Lysa liked it. (Don't remember the details or what book this was in or where, sorry.) You could tell that Littlefinger was infatuated with Catelyn, but it was Lysa who had always had a crush on him.

So as crazy as she was when we saw her previously at the Eyrie, I think it makes sense that she reacted how she did to Littlefinger coming back. She's so far gone that she's kind of retreated into this fantasy with Littlefinger to cope. Marrying him is her lifelong dream come true.

But just finish the book. You'll get a lot more info in the last chapter before the epilogue, and hopefully it will make more sense then.

[Alexia]

More on Lysa:

Yeah, you might want to reread some of Catelyn's chapters and this is also explained in the final ASOS chapter. She hates Lord Hoster, that is why she didn't respond to Catelyn's ravens or come to pay him a visit. Catelyn figures out why, but that is confirmed in the final chapter. Lysa has always loved Petyr, which is the ultimate reason for her hatred of Hoster, of Catelyn, and of Sansa.

Also, LF still officially supports the Lannisters.

[Tammy]

Well, I suppose, however...

I don't buy the loose cannon thing, though. I understand that Joffrey was a loose cannon but this would have been apparent even before Ned's death, especially to someone as apparently clued in as Littlefinger seems to be. What changed between Ned's death (which Littlefinger saw coming) and Joffrey's wedding? Didn't Littlefinger stand to gain more by remaining with the Lannisters? After all, he was granted the title of Lord for a start, even though Harrenhal was a bit of an poised chalice and an empty promise. He told Sansa, by way of explanation, that it was wise to make moves that don't even make sense and that you don't appear to profit from in order to keep your enemies guessing what you'll do next, but I can't help but think his part in Joffrey's death was a little forced, from a narrative standpoint. He doesn't really gain anything unless the final Sansa chapter has some twists in store which may explain it.

As for Lysa...yeah okay, she was a bit nutty in AGoT, true. But in a different sense. She was paranoid, erratic, cold and stubborn. A pretty horrible person, really! In ASoS, she's just...well, a silly little child, I suppose. It totally flipped perspective for me, because I always envisioned Littlefinger would have a job on his hands trying to woo Lysa. I thought she had always viewed him as weird little Petyr, which is reasonable based on the little we heard of their childhood in the Vale! But then all of a sudden she's demanding he marry her on the spot, then and there. And he's the one trying to play it down! And then there's the sex scene, which was completely at odds with how I imagined Lysa's cold, bitter demeanor.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that Lysa would travel down from the Eyrie to the Fingers just to see Petyr when she couldn't even send a raven in response to her dying father at Riverrun, much less travel there! Which makes sense as she's paranoid since there's a war going on, and last I heard about her she has holed herself up in the Eyrie. Why leave now? And without Robert! The son she smothered and spoiled in AGoT?? Nah, I just don't see that happening.

I don't know that anyone really saw Ned's death coming. He was supposed to take the black; that was the agreement that Cersei had made. Up to that point there was no real indication that his mother wouldn't be able to control him and influence him in his role as king. However, it soon became very apparent that there was no way to control Joffrey and his bad decisions. It's one of the reasons Tyrion wishes that Tommen were on the throne, because he was more tractable. I think LF realized that Joffrey remaining king was a threat to all of his plans. And by all appearances he is still with the Lannisters. Cersei, as far as I remember, doesn't even suspect LF in Joffrey's death.

[AsshaiKnight]

I've just read the final chapter...

wow, what a twist! Lysa killed Jon Aryn! Jesus! I had never saw that coming! And LF pushed her through the Moon Door! What an end!

It answered some of my questions, yes. Lysa was always in love with LF, secretly. I didn't believe it at first when LF bragged about it at the court in King's Landing, but..damn...there it is...Lysa started the whole damn war for love of LF!!!! The Lannisters did not try and kill Bran OR Jon. And Ned was killed because of Joffrey, though Cersei wanted him to take the Black...crazy how it's all changing. I had thought the Lannisters evil twisted bastards but...that's kind of not the case now, I think.

[Alexia]

I've just read the final chapter...

wow, what a twist! Lysa killed Jon Aryn! Jesus! I had never saw that coming! And LF pushed her through the Moon Door! What an end!

It answered some of my questions, yes. Lysa was always in love with LF, secretly. I didn't believe it at first when LF bragged about it at the court in King's Landing, but..damn...there it is...Lysa started the whole damn war for love of LF!!!! The Lannisters did not try and kill Bran OR Jon. And Ned was killed because of Joffrey, though Cersei wanted him to take the Black...crazy how it's all changing. I had thought the Lannisters evil twisted bastards but...that's kind of not the case now, I think.

Huh?

The Lannisters did so try to kill Bran! Remember? Poor kid had a run in with Jaime and then Joffrey's hired assassin. Cersei is definitely innocent of Jon Arryn's murder though.

There's a standing theory that LF gave Joffrey the idea to kill Ned so that Catelyn wouldn't learn of his betrayal of Ned, and to allow him the opportunity to kidnap Sansa. We see from the dwarf-at-wedding incident that he has some influence over Joffrey.

[AsshaiKnight]

Huh?

The Lannisters did so try to kill Bran! Remember? Poor kid had a run in with Jaime and then Joffrey's hired assassin. Cersei is definitely innocent of Jon Arryn's murder though.

There's a standing theory that LF gave Joffrey the idea to kill Ned so that Catelyn wouldn't learn of his betrayal of Ned, and to allow him the opportunity to kidnap Sansa. We see from the dwarf-at-wedding incident that he has some influence over Joffrey.

Oh, I meant when Tyrion...

...discovered at the wedding that it was Joffrey, not Jaime or Cersei, who hired the guy to kill Bran in his bed. I'd always thought Jaime and Cersei were behind that, but turns out even they had no part in it! And yeah, I'd always assumed LF had some kind of influence in the court, so I can see that he may have had an influence. But then why tell Catelyn it was Tyrion who did it, if he knew it was Joffrey?

[Mattyp]

I believe Littlefinger is very much guilty of planting the idea to kill Ned into Joffery's mind. All it would have took was a comment like "You don't want to look soft infront of the Realm do you my Lord?" and Ned was as good as dead.

I also believe Lysa's change in character to be a lapse in quality of writing on GRRM's front. She definitely had a big change in character. Her irrational hatred of Tyrion now seems even more irrational knowing that it was infact her that was responsible for Jon Arryn's death. It could be that perhaps she is insane and wanted Tyrion to take the hit for the murder so she could feel wholly innocent of it, but I remain unconvinced. It is clear she hated the Lannister's from her ramblings in AGOT, but now there isn't really a reason for her hatred.

[Alexia]

I believe Littlefinger is very much guilty of planting the idea to kill Ned into Joffery's mind. All it would have took was a comment like "You don't want to look soft infront of the Realm do you my Lord?" and Ned was as good as dead.

I also believe Lysa's change in character to be a lapse in quality of writing on GRRM's front. She definitely had a big change in character. Her irrational hatred of Tyrion now seems even more irrational knowing that it was infact her that was responsible for Jon Arryn's death. It could be that perhaps she is insane and wanted Tyrion to take the hit for the murder so she could feel wholly innocent of it, but I remain unconvinced. It is clear she hated the Lannister's from her ramblings in AGOT, but now there isn't really a reason for her hatred.

Yes, there is. Robert and Tywin had made arrangements for Tywin to foster the Sweetrobin. :lol:

[Birdsong65]

I've just read the final chapter...

Adds a whole new twist to Lysa'a accusations towards Tyrion at the Eyrie, no? Was that the only shocker for you at the end? I'm just wondering, is all....:P

I think I'm one of the few who believes that LF still wanted Catelyn, and thus the letter, and manipulations on his part in getting Ned named the hand were to that end. Hell, maybe he thought that if Ned was the hand, Catelyn would be with him in KL eventually. Given his manipulations with Lysa, is it too hard to believe that LF thought he could do the same with Catelyn? Once he saw that he still couldn't have her, after seeing her at KL, he determined his only effect on her would be through destruction of everything she held dear.

And only after Catelyn's trip to KL did he actually encounter Sansa, shifting his obsession to her, pliable, and physically so like a younger version of her mother. At least, initially, everything he noticed about Sansa was described as it related to his memories of Catelyn. IOW, I find it hard to believe that LF manipulated all this so that he could capture Sansa when he hadn't even encountered her before, nor had there been any great understanding in the seven kingdoms of her beauty, or her resemblence to Lady Stark, as far as I can tell.

I also think that there is some suggestion that Lysa was always somewhat unstable, even as a child, weaker and impulsive, moreso than Catelyn, who really strikes me a stereotypical eldest sibling where the Tully offspring are concerned, strong, determined, dutiful to the overall House, substitute mother to younger sibs. She, Lysa, made for a much easier a target for LF, Cat was too independant, if such a trait could be applied to women in Westeros.

In an alternate Westeros, It would have been interesting how Ned taking the black would have been negotiated. So his union with Catelyn is voided?

[wildlin out]

I believe Littlefinger is very much guilty of planting the idea to kill Ned into Joffery's mind. All it would have took was a comment like "You don't want to look soft infront of the Realm do you my Lord?" and Ned was as good as dead.

:agree: Absolutely. If there was one thing on Petyr's personal agenda, it was to see Ned Stark dead.

I also find Lysa's mood switch to be a bit far fetched. I mean, one minutes she's cray-cray Norman Bates' Mommy and then the next time we see her it's all OMGPETYRMANIA*faintswoon*! I understand how this could all correlate, but us not spending much time with her except with these two opposite extremes was a bit jarring.

But Alexia totally hit the nail on the head as far as her resentment of the Lannisters: nobody takes her precious Robert! I bet him and the Mad King would have gotten along splendidly though. "Make him fly!" - "Let's make him burn instead!" - "YAYAYAYAY!"

[Silmarien]

1: When Stannis mentions to Jon that Robb would have still be alive if he had not decided to play King and take the Riverlands, Jon replies 'I loved Robb'

Jon likely had heard about the Red Wedding before, and grieved privately. It would've been out of character for him to react emotionally in front of King Stannis and Melisandre, neither of whom he really trusted.

You didn't miss anything, I just don't think Jon's grief was portrayed in his POV chapters (I think it's certain that he felt terribly and grieved the loss of his brother), since the main focus was first being double agent Wildling, then leading the NW when the Wildling's assaulted the Wall, then after his victory, Slynt and co. have him shoved into an ice cell, only to yank him out to "treat" with Mance (hoping he'll get killed). Then Stannis shows up, saves the day, etc. The plotline at the wall wasn't focusing on reacting to events that happened South - it was focused on the Wildling siege.

2: When Sansa goes with Littlefinger to the Fingers and they meet Lysa...am I the only one who thinks that Catelyn's sister was acting a little...out of character? A) She seemed like a very different person when we meet her in the Eyrie, not at all like the character I read about in Sansa's chapter. Also, when people in the book talk about the Vale when the Tully sisters and Baelish were in their youth, I always got the sense that Petyr was a weasely little perv and that the Tully sisters took pitty on him most of the time. B)Now I'm supposed to believe that not only did he take Catelyn's maidenhead, but apparently Lysa's madly in love with him and always has been? Something doesn't add up....also, in Catelyn's chapters she repeatedly makes reference to the night when Ned took her maidenhead...but this is internal narrative, and not actual dialogue, and so must be true, right? I mean, who is she lying to? So Littlefinger must be lying about this at least, but why? C) And why would he want to take part in Joffrey's death when it was him that tried to encourage Ned Stark to allow Joffrey to take the throne?

A) Lysa seems out of character, but only because we haven't seen her truly happy before. Petyr Baelish was her childhood love, and instead of him, she was forced to marry a man twice her age, had a loveless marriage, lost 5 children via miscarriage or stillbirth, and has only a single, weakling living child. We see Lysa finally happy because she can marry her love, Petyr Baelish, and that's why she seems "out of character" from the cold, snappy, insane woman we met first in aGoT.

B) Um, LF might boast (just as Tormund boasts about his "member"), but it's a lie he took Catelyn Tully's maidenhead. She was a virgin upon marrying Ned Stark. LF wasn't lying in the sense that he actually took Lysa's virginity - he was very drunk though, and he did call her "Cat", so he might actually believe that was Cat. But in reality no, LF got Lysa pregnant, and that (and his duel with Brandon Stark) was one of the reasons he got kicked out as a ward.

C) LF is all about timing. Immediately after King Robert died, supporting Joffrey seemed the best option for LF because he knew Cersei, and knew that no matter what Ned did, Cersei would grab for power immediately and try to rule through her son. LF also knows that if Cersei's children are discovered and revealed as bastards, that Stannis Baratheon would take the throne. Stannis would have dismissed the entire small council (at least - he might've even put their heads on spikes). So having Stannis rule instead of Joffrey wasn't in LF's best interests.

After Joffrey has ruled for awhile, long enough for most to realize he's going to turn out worse than Aerys II, well that was a different ballgame. So he played the Tyrells, never revealing himself that Joff was a sociopath, but had his servants spread rumors. After, The Queen of Thorns and Margery ask Sansa, and get the truth. Then, LF is free to plot with the Queen of Thornes to keep Margery safe from Joff (by arranging for him to get poisoned at their wedding), instead having Margery marry the kind, pliable Tommen. This way LF keeps the titles (Lord of Harrenhall) bestowed by the Lannisters, and gets rid of Joffrey, a dangerous player of the game of thrones.

3: What the hell happened to Davos?????? Is he dead?? Was he the guy who got burned so the winds would carry Stannis north???

You'll find out in ADWD.

4: Where the hell is Benjen Stark????? (He's Coldhands, isn't he?? He must be! But why isn't he showing himself??)

He could be Coldhands, but opinions differ. The Children do say he is very old, and that doesn't fit well for Benjen, who would only have been dead a year at most at that point. Benjen's fate is still a mystery at this point.