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[ADWD Spoilers] Bran's Endgame


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Oh oh, what if the cave connects to the crypts in Winterfell......? We don't know where the cave ends, theres an underground river, it may be very long....I somehow seem to recall a certain raven in Bran's visions pointing him towards the crypts? Maybe it wasn't just a sign of where to hide when the boogieman came? Maybe it was a subtle hint as to where Bran was supposed to go to find his fate....?

I should loosen a little on the medication I think. Or this forum. The more I read the more I come up with weird stuff... :tantrum:

Medicate on, if for no other reason cause it is fun. I like the idea of the caves leading Bran and his group south of the wall and LOVE the idea that Bran finds his own wierwood throne under Winterfell. Heck Lady Dustin and Theon note how the lower levels of the crypts are blocked off - i.e. totally possible that they connect but no one knows about it since no one knows how deep the crypts go.

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If Bran is going to end up as a superwarger, I hope he manages to get out of that cave and make it to the Isle of Faces. That would seem to be the best spot for him to work from. I have no idea how to get him there, short of an extraction mission by a team of dragonriders. I fear for Summer. I really don't want to see any more of the direwolves die, but Summer doesn't seem to be eating well, (he's living on wight flesh), and getting him out by dragon seems unlikely.

I wouldn't be selling a life insurance policy to Jojen, unfortunately. I truly hope Meera survives. I'm hoping she marries someone from Dorne, so we can have a wedding feast that includes frog legs with Dornish peppers.

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I know Bran really wants a body, hey we all do. But I think the whole ark here is moving beyond the physical limitations (not just of having no workable legs, but the limitations of a body). He is going to be a big friggin consciousness and play out like that. I know everyone wants him to be able to physically walk and move, but there is a lot more going on here with his mind and that is how he will be a factor.

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Bran's greenseer ablities are where the action is going to be but I am not discounting the idea that he may need to leave the cavern for some reason and Hodor is there to carry him. I like the idea that the tunnels and maybe river are able to take him south of the Wall. I also like the idea that he maybe one of the future dragon riders in a special saddle. He would finally get to be a warrior on a badass dragon!

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Bloodraven has been looking for him for a longtime. Not sure if this means Bran in particular or that there was going to be a great greenseer to do some heavy mystic stuff on the others etc..Either way it means he is exceptional kinda like the AA PTWP of the greenseer world. As such his reach and influnce will be great and not requiring his physical presence since he can fly anywhere. Rem the origonal ravens spoke their messages. so brans wrags a raven and flys off to chat to whoever, he can be the internet of westeros. He will link all the interested parties. He has communicated with jon before and this will become easier directing him to sort the others out. Doesn't matter if jon is dead. He can talk to the dead. Wasn't he warned off attempting to talk to Ned which also implyed he could have drawn him back.

Just thought maybe this is how jon comes back, much better that the red woman and magic which has too much of a dark side. The downside here perhaps GRRM's bittersweet ending is jon has to go back to being dead after the others are defeated and westors is put to rights.

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Some things I think I think at this point...

1. CotF caves connecting to crypts under WF-- I just don't see it. That's a loooong ways away. I think even the caves leading south of the wall or to Hardhome may be a stretch. The underground river would presumably flow to the sea, which would be a faster trip (by boat or raft) and put them in the vicinity of the Hardhome storyline or the Davos/Rickon storyline (or both). As an added bonus, we could get a collision course with "dead things in the water"! I don't discount the idea of some magical transport to the Isle of Faces via weirwood door either, though Leaf's story of her long wanderings in the realms of man makes that seem unlikely to me.

2. Bloodraven and the CotF=evil?-- I think this is still very up in the air, as we have evidence pointing both ways. On the one hand, the CotF were, not initially, but eventually, allies of the First Men. They "sing the song of the earth". They seem like a gentle and peaceful race. Oh yeah, except for the fact that their cave is littered with the bones of animals, children, giants and men. And the peace treaty made with men loooong ago has been absolutely violated by said men, which may not sit so well with them. And they're headed for extinction. Blood sacrifices to the weirwoods are also a bad sign, imo. Bloodraven has a very checkered past: bastard, hero, Hand of the King, LC of the Night's Watch, practicer of dark magics (hearsay) and head of a vast network of spies, and now, dessicated corpse/tree with a hive mind. He tells Bran that darkness is his friend, his cloak and his armor, that darkness will make him strong. All things considered, I lean toward Bloodraven and the CotF probably being the bad guys here.

3. Bran's crew-- I think it's safe to say Joen's day is very near. I don't think he makes it out of the caves and he knows this. But I believe his self-sacrifice will allow all of the others to escape. I think Meera, Summer, and Hodor get out of the caves. Bran... I don't know. I certainly hope so. I also wonder if they gain a companion to their party here. I think it more likely that Leaf, not Summer, leads them out of the caves.

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I posted this in a different thread today, so apologies for everyone who's seeing it twice.

Among other things, I think Bran will turn out to be the narrator. I thought of this when the Children started talking about the songs of the earth. That to me sounded like "song of ice and fire," so it made me wonder if the whole book series is intended as a tale told by the children of the forest--and then another poster mentioned that Bran has the first named chapter in the series and suggested he'll have the last. I think that's absolutely correct, and that it'll turn out he's "telling" us this story, long after the fact, having seen all the past and present events through the trees and through other visions.

I also think he'll have other things to do along the way, though.

I do not see how this could turn out to be true. How can Bran be telling us about the events of places were heart trees are not present? How can Bran narrate the story in such a way where he gives us the feelings and thoughts of other characters, rather than just their actions? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post.

On the endgame for Bran: It seems like too much of his story has been about him traveling to see the TEC and master his warging skills. I do not think it is set in stone that he will be a tree forever (maybe he will leave the cave? Who knows), but somehow his master warging skills will have to come into play. The easiest way for that to happen, though, is if he stays a tree.

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I do not see how this could turn out to be true. How can Bran be telling us about the events of places were heart trees are not present? How can Bran narrate the story in such a way where he gives us the feelings and thoughts of other characters, rather than just their actions? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post.

He has other visions too, though, and can also see through the eyes of animals, so he can see scenes that aren't near heart trees. But while you're right about him not being able to read everybody's minds, I think the literary conceit of him being the narrator can still work. I'm thinking of books like Mists of Avalon, where Morgaine is supposedly the narrator and admits up front that the story includes stuff that happened before she was born or when she wasn't on the scene, and handwaves it with something like "well, I have the Sight, plus I knew all these people really well and they told me things."

Edited to add and on a different aspect of the topic: I now want to reread the books and make note of everywhere a heart tree appears! And I wonder if the weirwood doors in Braavos work too...

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Varamyr was taught by a wildling though - warging will have been a children of the forest/greenseer thing, and as they are a different species to the humans, it'll be no different than Bran warging into a wolf etc.

So if Bran ends up as a greenseer there shouldn't really be anything morally wrong with hum warging into a human... and Bloodraven as a greenseer won't see anything wrong with this anyway - so i doubt Bran will be taught it's a cardinal sin.

As I wrote on another thread, Bran's character is increasingly dark as the story progresses. In the beginning we have Bran liking scary stories about winter and white walkers, then he starts to distance himself from other people, in ASOS he wargs Hodor ( I grant you, it was on accident), but in ADWD he is full on losing his morality. He eats human flesh when in Summer, but also in his human skin and he also wargs Hodor regularly even though he is well aware that Hodor is scared out of his mind by it. There is no way you can just wave his warging Hodor off based on not being tought by other wargs. There is simply no worse thing you can do to a person than to take away their free will and their control over their own body and actions. I do not need a lesson from a learned warg to know that. What Bran is doing to Hodor is equal to repeated mind-rape.

In comparison, we have in say HP the Unforgivables- one of them Imperius (which takes away person's control of one's actions), noone needs explaining why that one's bad.

Also you seem to think that warging Hodor or other humans is okay because Bran is becoming something other than human ? It does not matter. Humans are sentient beings, you do not take away free will that defines sentience. By your reasoning it would be okay for Bran to warg some random CoF because he's bored and he isn't of the same race as they are or he can warg Bloodraven because he isn't full greenseer yet. That is like saying that if a human rapes an elf it's no rape because they are not of the same race.

I'm sorry, I just do not see your reasoning as sound in this case.

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Some things I think I think at this point...

1. CotF caves connecting to crypts under WF-- I just don't see it. That's a loooong ways away. I think even the caves leading south of the wall or to Hardhome may be a stretch. The underground river would presumably flow to the sea, which would be a faster trip (by boat or raft) and put them in the vicinity of the Hardhome storyline or the Davos/Rickon storyline (or both). As an added bonus, we could get a collision course with "dead things in the water"! I don't discount the idea of some magical transport to the Isle of Faces via weirwood door either, though Leaf's story of her long wanderings in the realms of man makes that seem unlikely to me.

2. Bloodraven and the CotF=evil?-- I think this is still very up in the air, as we have evidence pointing both ways. On the one hand, the CotF were, not initially, but eventually, allies of the First Men. They "sing the song of the earth". They seem like a gentle and peaceful race. Oh yeah, except for the fact that their cave is littered with the bones of animals, children, giants and men. And the peace treaty made with men loooong ago has been absolutely violated by said men, which may not sit so well with them. And they're headed for extinction. Blood sacrifices to the weirwoods are also a bad sign, imo. Bloodraven has a very checkered past: bastard, hero, Hand of the King, LC of the Night's Watch, practicer of dark magics (hearsay) and head of a vast network of spies, and now, dessicated corpse/tree with a hive mind. He tells Bran that darkness is his friend, his cloak and his armor, that darkness will make him strong. All things considered, I lean toward Bloodraven and the CotF probably being the bad guys here.

3. Bran's crew-- I think it's safe to say Joen's day is very near. I don't think he makes it out of the caves and he knows this. But I believe his self-sacrifice will allow all of the others to escape. I think Meera, Summer, and Hodor get out of the caves. Bran... I don't know. I certainly hope so. I also wonder if they gain a companion to their party here. I think it more likely that Leaf, not Summer, leads them out of the caves.

Could Bloodraven be the "one who can't be named" by the red priests, and in control of the Others??

The CoF have survived in the caves for centuries, and have been waiting for Bran to come. If his skills are many and more than Bloodravens perhaps they need him to take over the job.

So perhaps the whole fight is not so much between men, but between FIRE ie Dragons/Red God and ICE ie the Others/Bloodraven/CoF with mankind caught in between?

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Ifear that after reading ADWD Brans endgame may be the saddest, he may well be the most significant player in the war to come but i feel the cost will be great. I believe he will have become like bloodraven entangled in weirwood for the rest of his days, and he never get to know the love that i feel he and meera share.

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Can I clarify what people are talking about when they refer to Bran "eating blood"?

Now, I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to recall that when Bran took the bowl of "food" he thought it "looked like blood", not that it was blood. Which I took to mean the "food" (or whatever it was) was made up of weirwood, weirwood sap, weirwood nuts, etc etc, therefore connecting him to the trees.

Did I completely misunderstand this?

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I think that when Bran wargs into something (possibly Summer) then the Great other is going to take his body and use it as his vessel. I could see Jon coming to the Great Others lair only to find his "brother" walking, alive, and talking with glowing blur eyes and Jon is going to have to end up killing his brother's body as means to defeat te Great Other and Bran is basically lost forever warging into other things. From tree's to wolves, and everything else in between his soul will forever wander in from place to place. Jon defeats the Other but at the expense of slaying his kin (hence the bittersweet ending). This causes Jon nightmares since the one thing he loves more then anything is his family and end up having to kill one to save the world.

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Can I clarify what people are talking about when they refer to Bran "eating blood"?

Now, I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to recall that when Bran took the bowl of "food" he thought it "looked like blood", not that it was blood. Which I took to mean the "food" (or whatever it was) was made up of weirwood, weirwood sap, weirwood nuts, etc etc, therefore connecting him to the trees.

Did I completely misunderstand this?

See the following quote from Bran's dream through the eyes of the weirwood at Winterfell.

"And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth...but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

The blood he tastes isn't in reference to the weirwood paste, but to the actual blood sprayed from the man that is killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree.

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See the following quote from Bran's dream through the eyes of the weirwood at Winterfell.

The blood he tastes isn't in reference to the weirwood paste, but to the actual blood sprayed from the man that is killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree.

Yeah, he's warging the tree, so he tastes what it tasted.

It's possible there's also blood in the paste, but it's not certain, and the scene works with or without it.

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I would agree that Bran's story is far from over, with two more books to come I don't see Bran just "being in the trees", that would just be one of the dumbest ways to end Brans journey.

That being said I have a few ideas about where Martin is going with Bran. First off: Show down between Bran and Melisandre, I don't like Melisandre, for one I don't like religious fanatics, and secondly human sacrifice is morally wrong. I have a feeling that The Lord of Light's enemy "the other who must not be named is the Green Seer, and the CotF. Secondly: The Children of the forest, were the first people to live in Westeros, and I have a feeling they are not overly happy about how Men the (old and the new) have treated them and the weirwoods over the years. In some sick and twisted way, the "others" might be there weapon against the realm of men. Things are still very up in the air about the Red Lady, and the Cotf / the green seer, and who is good and who is evil. I also don't think things are black and white either because nothing in martins books are ever good vs evil, or black and white. Now I have a feeling that Cold Hands is Benjen and that we have not seen the last of him.

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My speculation:

Bran will never be just a tree...

Nicely done. This was my take on it too.

Bran being in endgame position, while not being endgame trained, leaves him stuff to do while still offering the possibility that GRRM might actually end this thing in two books.

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I'm also leery of the Children of the Forest and their motives. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "evil," but nor do I think they're entirely benevolent in the way that we understand that word.

I think they are benevolent to Balance and Nature and Life. Unlike normal zombie myths, GRRM makes the Others out to be a threat to all animal life at a minimum. I think a world of re-animated dead things wandering around a world of eternal Winter is enough of a threat to them and theirs to get them on board with the Wolves and Dragons.

But, no, I don't think they would do much to help if the Others just wanted to rid the world of humans and leave the rest alone.

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It was something Melisandre said after thinking she might have dreamt of the Great Other. "the wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with wolf's face...they were his servants, surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers. "

It sure sounds like Bran and she believes that he might be the champion for the others but I have been wrong before.

Yep, sounds like Mel thinks Bran is evil, but she also genuinely believes that Stannis is AA reborn thus proving that her interpretations of the flames aren't exactly flawless.

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See the following quote from Bran's dream through the eyes of the weirwood at Winterfell.

The blood he tastes isn't in reference to the weirwood paste, but to the actual blood sprayed from the man that is killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree.

Ok, fine, but then why are people assuming that these are blood sacrifices?

The weirwoods have significant and far ranging reach, who's to say that the blood he tastes isn't simply one of the many many many many battles (or even executions) that would have taken place within the vicinity of a weirwood over the ages?

Also, I'm pretty sure someone said at some stage that they were concerned that "Bran had to taste blood as part of his training". Which I think is just plain incorrect.

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