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Kadence

Wun Wun and Football

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We know that Ser Patrek was there to represent some Dallas Cowboys fan who won a contest of some sort, with the blue star and such.

And Wun Wun is a "Giant" who kills this allegorical Dallas Cowboy - which I assume is intentional as Martin is a monstrously huge Giants fan. So does Wun Wun's short-form name mean anything? It sounds suspiciously like "One One" and if that is true, the obvious reference there would be Phil Simms, legendary Giants QB with number 11 (a number that is now retired so it cannot refer to any current Giants players).

I'm leaning towards this Phil Simms homage being intentional, but I'd like to hear the opinions of others.

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I am convinced the Phil Simms reference is intentional and I am not at all thrilled about it. I always thought Martin was proud about the rich and believable background of his series (world-building and all) and with American Football inclusions - a knight in Dallas Cowboys colours getting defeated by a (New York) Giant, come on! - he makes a cheap joke out of his own creation. Pretty embarrassing.

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I am convinced the Phil Simms reference is intentional and I am not at all thrilled about it. I always thought Martin was proud about the rich and believable background of his series (world-building and all) and with American Football inclusions - a knight in Dallas Cowboys colours getting defeated by a (New York) Giant, come on! - he makes a cheap joke out of his own creation. Pretty embarrassing.

Is it really much different from naming characters after Jack Vance, Robert Jordan, and the Three Stooges? Or having House emblems including a Blue Beetle and a Green Arrow? Westeros is full of these sorts of references, and always has been. Some might call it embarrassing - some might say he's just not taking himself too seriously.

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It's not cheap and embarassing. Myself, i think it's brilliant :)

..but it's just because i lived in america for a while and i have a vague idea of what you're talking about

Except that millions of people who don't know/care about football don't give a fucking shit about this. Most of us Europeans, for start.

Exactly. it's not like anybody outside the US know anything about american football

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Some might call it embarrassing - some might say he's just not taking himself too seriously.

Well, on the other hand he claims that immersion in his world is paramount, he wants to put the reader through the experience of actually living in his world.

I don't know about you but when I read about "Ser Patrek of King's Mountain" aka Pat from Pat's fantasy hotlist from Montreal (King's Mountain, get it?), a Dallas Cowboys fan getting written into the story with the Cowboys' insignia AND getting killed be Phil "Wun Wun" Simms, the Giant, it pretty much destroys my immersion in Martin's world. It rips me out of Westeros and back in the real world, so to speak.

In addition I am not sure if "taking himself not too seriously" and implementing "clever" easter-eggs for cheap laughs in the story is commendable for an author undertaking to write one of the greatest fantasy epics ever. It shows a lack of respect for your own creation.

I wonder if the real Tolkien would have thought it fun to dress Saruman in a Premier league soccer shirt for example.

Obviously the "American" Tolkien has a different opinion.

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Except that millions of people who don't know/care about football don't give a fucking shit about this. Most of us Europeans, for start.

Now you know. I'm glad I could be of help and hope I thus enhanced your reading experience. Think fondly of me on a re-read of ADWD when this time you won't miss the part where the Dallas Cowboy and the Giant battle it out at the Wall. It makes Westeros so much more alive and believable :thumbsup:

And I'm from Europe as well and don't know anything about football either. The reference unfortunately was hard to miss for any one following Martin's blog or Pat's fantasy blog which are both widely read. So yeah, quite ruined the chapters for me these phoney incidents were in.

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Except that millions of people who don't know/care about football don't give a fucking shit about this. Most of us Europeans, for start.

One of them right there :smug: but let's see... I live in Spain, and I don't know a shit about american football (it's soccer what we follow here), but if I knew I think I wouldn't mind seeing a joke of that sort. If Martin had created a character naming him, for example, Leo "The Messy", a whining beggar who receives the favor of the masses in tournements for... whatever, and that Messy guy keeps deceiving (for pure luck) his enemies' attempts to kick his ass, then I, as a furious support of F.C. Barcelona (the team in which Leo Messi plays), would have say: "OK, Martin is a supporter of Real Madrid :rolleyes: poor guy" and I would have had a laugh about it. It's like the Princess Leia Organa scene: so Alys Karstark goes to Jonbi-Wan Kesnowbi to ask his help? OK, I simply LMAO when I read it and then go on with the book.

But in fact that Ser Patrek thing is in the middle of one of the most shocking scenes of all the five books, and, if some of you are correct, maybe he and his murder will be pretty important in Jon's future (as Azor Ahai, if it turns out to be him). So, if you tell me that Martin lost a bet, then created a character, dressed him with the colors of his football rival and then killed him at the hands of his football team and all this scheme serves him to fulfill a prophecy and take a "giant" step for one of his main character's destiny and the world's edge hour, then I simply would fall and kiss his bloody feet :bowdown:

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Now you know. I'm glad I could be of help and hope I thus enhanced your reading experience. Think fondly of me on a re-read of ADWD when this time you won't miss the part where the Dallas Cowboy and the Giant battle it out at the Wall. It makes Westeros so much more alive and believable :thumbsup:

Oh please . It's so obscure and subtle , it's not like it compromises the story.

Now if Ser Patrek was named Ser Romo and wore a cowboy hat , then you'd have something to complain about....

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Well, on the other hand he claims that immersion in his world is paramount, he wants to put the reader through the experience of actually living in his world.

I don't know about you but when I read about "Ser Patrek of King's Mountain" aka Pat from Pat's fantasy hotlist from Montreal (King's Mountain, get it?), a Dallas Cowboys fan getting written into the story with the Cowboys' insignia AND getting killed be Phil "Wun Wun" Simms, the Giant, it pretty much destroys my immersion in Martin's world. It rips me out of Westeros and back in the real world, so to speak.

In addition I am not sure if "taking himself not too seriously" and implementing "clever" easter-eggs for cheap laughs in the story is commendable for an author undertaking to write one of the greatest fantasy epics ever. It shows a lack of respect for your own creation.

I wonder if the real Tolkien would have thought it fun to dress Saruman in a Premier league soccer shirt for example.

Obviously the "American" Tolkien has a different opinion.

Well, again, if Patrek and the Giant threw you out of the story, but Lharys, Khurleket and Mohor were not an issue, then that's a shame for you but can't really be levelled as a criticism of the writer - he's been doing it all along. If the difference is that this is the first time you noticed, that's not really his fault.

As for 'cheap laughs' or 'lack of respect', another way of putting those might be 'affectionate tribute' and 'sense of perspective'. It's all opinion, and we're all entitled to our own. I'm fairly sure GRRM will keep writing the story the way he likes to write it.

p.s. there was no Premier league in Tolkien's day. But you knew that. ;)

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The reference unfortunately was hard to miss for any one following Martin's blog

DON'T TELL ME. lol.

And, guess what? it's almost time for more NFL posts!

One of them right there :smug: but let's see... I live in Spain, and I don't know a shit about american football (it's soccer what we follow here), but if I knew I think I wouldn't mind seeing a joke of that sort. If Martin had created a character naming him, for example, Leo "The Messy", a whining beggar who receives the favor of the masses in tournements for... whatever, and that Messy guy keeps deceiving (for pure luck) his enemies' attempts to kick his ass, then I, as a furious support of F.C. Barcelona (the team in which Leo Messi plays), would have say: "OK, Martin is a supporter of Real Madrid :rolleyes: poor guy" and I would have had a laugh about it. It's like the Princess Leia Organa scene: so Alys Karstark goes to Jonbi-Wan Kesnowbi to ask his help? OK, I simply LMAO when I read it and then go on with the book.

That "jon snow you're my only hope" made me LOL as well. Now, let's hope Parris will never read this post or we'll have ser Lionel of Messi killed by a knight whose sigil is a white circle with a blue stripe in the middle and weird golden simbols on it.

And, again, the real word is "(association) football"! (opposed to "american football") Soccer is mostly an American heresy! (i could bitch about this for hours!)

Oh please . It's so obscure and subtle , it's not like it compromises the story.

Now if Ser Patrek was named Ser Romo and wore a cowboy hat , then you'd have something to complain about....

This.

And now i'm picturing Patrek wearing a cowboy hat. LMAO! :D

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Well, on the other hand he claims that immersion in his world is paramount, he wants to put the reader through the experience of actually living in his world.

I don't know about you but when I read about "Ser Patrek of King's Mountain" aka Pat from Pat's fantasy hotlist from Montreal (King's Mountain, get it?), a Dallas Cowboys fan getting written into the story with the Cowboys' insignia AND getting killed be Phil "Wun Wun" Simms, the Giant, it pretty much destroys my immersion in Martin's world. It rips me out of Westeros and back in the real world, so to speak.

In addition I am not sure if "taking himself not too seriously" and implementing "clever" easter-eggs for cheap laughs in the story is commendable for an author undertaking to write one of the greatest fantasy epics ever. It shows a lack of respect for your own creation.

I wonder if the real Tolkien would have thought it fun to dress Saruman in a Premier league soccer shirt for example.

Obviously the "American" Tolkien has a different opinion.

Geeze, someone get this guy a violin. I'm sorry that your immersion is ruined forever because of this one reference that you "picked up on," aka read on the boards or through a fan website. Maybe next time avoid these sites until your done reading and then you'll see it doesn't impact the story at all.

Also, GRRM never claimed to be Tolkien. He did not attempt to invent alternative languages which Tolkien relied heavily on to create names for the people and places of Middle Earth. You're bitching about this is like someone complaining that Tolkien is a terrible writer because he copy and pasted characters and place names from Beowulf for Rohan, and basically stole half the words from Finnish to create Elvish.

No one should care where the inspiration comes from as long as it works and tells a good story. And unless you are following the boards or fan websites, there is no way a reader could even deduce that Sir Patrik and Wun Wun are anything but a stupid knight that messed with the wrong giant.

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p.s. there was no Premier league in Tolkien's day. But you knew that. ;)

No, I actually didn't :). Let's say, cricket team then, I am sure there had to be some cricket in Tolkien's time.

The thing that irks me is, I thought it to be quite a blatant reference. Following Martin's blog I couldn't help to notive that the Giants and the Jets are his favorite team and that he despises the Cowboys. To see this implemented in the series I love was a slap in the face. Maybe if I read the novels differently, more like an amusing tale with lots of references to the real world and with satirical elements, I probably wouldn't care so much.

But for me, at least in the first four book, I was IN Westeros, I laughed, cried, fought and lived with the characters and experienced the world as they did. You're right, the Stooges reference would have annoyed me (had I caught it), I don't mind the Jordayne of Tor or the Jack Vance thing. Jordan and Vance are fantasy and if it's merely a nod I doesn't disturb the setting.

Dallas Cowboys Patrek and Phil "Wun Wun" Simms, the Giant, was simply too much. It's real life sports, has nothing to do with fantasy, and came up way too often. Patrek even had some speaking scenes with Jon! That really killed my immersion in the world. I wouldn't have cared about Pat the poacher getting hanged but this... too blatant, too out of tone and definitely an atmosphere killer.

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Now, let's hope Parris will never read this post or we'll have ser Lionel of Messi killed by a knight whose sigil is a white circle with a blue stripe in the middle and weird golden simbols on it.

That's what the Brotherhood of the Weird Violet Symbols would want, not what they would achieve :lmao: Lionel of Messy will always survive, mark my words... :lmao:

And, again, the real word is "(association) football"! (opposed to "american football") Soccer is mostly an American heresy! (i could bitch about this for hours!)

Peace :commie: I didn't know it :frown5: here we've always hear that "our" football is called "soccer" there in the US... :blush:

Anyway. That Ser Patrek thing is a joke, but a very clever one: Martin didn't simply put the guy in a page and then killed him (as the bet said, I think) but he created a character, gave him a personality, created other character (Wun Wun) and then told us a complete story about how the giant is nursed by Jon, how the cowboy wants to marry Val, how Jon tells him how to do so, how the cowboy tries to do it and how the giant kills him. And while writing this, Martin makes all the story just "clicks" with one of the most important moments of all the series: the fallout of the Wall. Impressive :bowdown:

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Haha, football for me is soccer as well, so I had to do a double-take on this thread's title. I already imagined Wun Wun kicking ser Patrek's head...

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And unless you are following the boards or fan websites, there is no way a reader could even deduce that Sir Patrik and Wun Wun are anything but a stupid knight that messed with the wrong giant.

I am glad for you that you missed it, I didn't and it threw me off. And I dare to wager that an American Football fan would instantly recognize the "five-pointed blue star on a field of white" as the Dallas Cowboys insignia and then make the connection to "One One" the Giant - apparently Phil Simms is a legend.

Oh, and by the way, Martin is widely heralded as the "American Tolkien", I didn't invent this or came up with the Tolkien comparison on my own.

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That's what the Brotherhood of the Weird Violet Symbols would want, not what they would achieve :lmao: Lionel of Messy will always survive, mark my words... :lmao:

Peace :commie: I didn't know it :frown5: here we've always hear that "our" football is called "soccer" there in the US... :blush:

Anyway. That Ser Patrek thing is a joke, but a very clever one: Martin didn't simply put the guy in a page and then killed him (as the bet said, I think) but he created a character, gave him a personality, created other character (Wun Wun) and then told us a complete story about how the giant is nursed by Jon, how the cowboy wants to marry Val, how Jon tells him how to do so, how the cowboy tries to do it and how the giant kills him. And while writing this, Martin makes all the story just "clicks" with one of the most important moments of all the series: the fallout of the Wall. Impressive :bowdown:

Actually, ser Patrek might also be "the bleeding star" so the whole story is even more complicated than it looks xD

the brotherood of the weird violet symbols made me lol xD. So, you're from spain, aren't you?

Anyway, Ass. Football is only called Soccer in the US, which is a complete mess if you (like me) studied brit english and then you move to georgia. I had my part of embarassing moments xD like "OMG, you have so many weird sports here in high school! I've never heard of "softball" before.. And WFT is "soccer"? "seriously? You're telling me you're from europe and you don't know what soccer is?" "..ahem, should i know it?"

EDIT:

I am glad for you that you missed it, I didn't and it threw me off. And I dare to wager that an American Football fan would instantly recognize the "five-pointed blue star on a field of white" as the Dallas Cowboys insignia and then make the connection to "One One" the Giant - apparently Phil Simms is a legend.

Oh, and by the way, Martin is widely heralded as the "American Tolkien", I didn't invent this or came up with the Tolkien comparison on my own.

yes, but he doesn't go around calling himself "tolkien 2: the return" - this is just what the guys at bantam print on the books to sell them :)

Anyway, i agree with you about the Dallas Cowboys thing. (but i missed the one one reference.. shame!) I recognized it, and i'm not even American... for what i remember there are many people just a little obsessed with football in the US, and i'm sure half of the people who read DANCE got the reference :D

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I think it adds a layer to the work, and doesn't detract for the others.

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Personally I don't like it, I'd rather it wasn't known that Ser Patrek isn't a character he actually came up with but somebody he named after a football pat, so he had to come out with someone called Patrick, or Patrek. It's pretty lame, but as long as this does not happen more frequently it's not a big deal.

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Personally I don't like it, I'd rather it wasn't known that Ser Patrek isn't a character he actually came up with but somebody he named after a football pat, so he had to come out with someone called Patrick, or Patrek. It's pretty lame, but as long as this does not happen more frequently it's not a big deal.

come on, it's not lame, it's brilliant. I'm hoping for another of this "contests" so i can suggest Ser Fabio the Blue Knight. lol

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