Wun Wun and Football

[Lord Eddard]

I think it adds a layer to the work, and doesn't detract for the others.

Hmm, ok. But where is the limit?

For example, would it be acceptable for Wun Wun to survive by making a run for the Wall, dodging his attackers, disabling his opponents with accurate stone throws and making a little victory dance before disappearing into the forest? Maybe, although hard to swallow.

A whole tribe of giants doing this? Would this be hilarious, insightful, clever? Err, no.

See what I am trying to say with this? For me, the limit was already reached with Patrek and Wun Wun, for you obviously not yet. Or ever.

[Whatever]

Well, i guess GRRM is the only one who decides where the limit is. Also, no reason to worry about Wun Wun doing a victory dance until he actually does...

Also: i don't know if you guys realized that Patrek the Cowboy is kinda important to the story... he could be either "the bleeding star" or a pretty damn good red herring. So, even if that guy wouldn't have suggested the Dallas Cowboys, GRRM would have put a kinght with a star as his sigil anyway...

[witless chum]

I am glad for you that you missed it, I didn't and it threw me off. And I dare to wager that an American Football fan would instantly recognize the "five-pointed blue star on a field of white" as the Dallas Cowboys insignia and then make the connection to "One One" the Giant - apparently Phil Simms is a legend.

I think you'd lose that bet. I follow American Football, also have a particular dislike for the Dallas Cowboys and their owner and I didn't notice the Cowboys reference. The symbol isn't anything out of place on a Westerosi shield, so it seems okay to me. But I'm amused by references like that, rather than annoyed. I sure didn't make the leap to Phil Simms, because he played mostly before my time.

[Tony Rigatoni]

Oh, and by the way, Martin is widely heralded as the "American Tolkien", I didn't invent this or came up with the Tolkien comparison on my own.

No one claims you came up with that. Read my post again. I said GRRM never compared himself to Tolkien. It was critics that did. However, you are still up on your high horse complaining that he's the American Tolkien yet includes things that Tolkien would never have included. By your logic I guess we should all be ashamed of GRRM for being the American Tolkien and including sex, incest, and too many grey characters into his stories.

I get it man, you're venting. But only one in a thousand would have noticed it (without the web), and out of those few, only one in a thousand would care. You're rage at this minuscule critique is as rare as Bran the Broken.

[arya horsefaceless]

I think you'd lose that bet. I follow American Football, also have a particular dislike for the Dallas Cowboys and their owner and I didn't notice the Cowboys reference. The symbol isn't anything out of place on a Westerosi shield, so it seems okay to me. But I'm amused by references like that, rather than annoyed. I sure didn't make the leap to Phil Simms, because he played mostly before my time.

yea, this. I'm a huge (american) football fan/sports fan in general. I hate the Cowboys (and hate the Giants), but I didn't pick up on this at all.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I'm sorry to hear some people were bothered by this, but I certainly didn't notice it on my reading and only learned about it afterward. I don't see how any of it, the giant, Patrek's name and sigil, seem out of place in the context of Westeros. It was clearly established in earlier books that there are giants, Patrek's name seems to fit the Westeros naming conventions to me, and his sigil didn't sound out of place with all the other sigils. I'm a bit surprised people were bothered by it. When I read about it later, I was amused and thought it was well done. Ah well. Different strokes and all that.

[Suldog]

yea, this. I'm a huge (american) football fan/sports fan in general. I hate the Cowboys (and hate the Giants), but I didn't pick up on this at all.

I'm a huge Cowboys fan, dislike the Giants, and I know who Phil Simms is and his number. I didn't pick up on it at all. I didn't know about the bet when I read the book.

In hindsight, knowing about the bet, it does seem pretty obvious, but at the time the sigil and name were no more obvious or contrived than any others in the book. As mentioned, it's not like we had Ser Romo wearing a cowboy hat.

[Argonath Diver]

I find it exceptionally hard to believe that this tiny reference 'ruined' the chapters for you. As in, you were sitting in your place of choice, reading away at a favorite author, when, "BAM!" obscure football reference made you bolt out of your chair in a cavalcade of righteous fury! To the message boards! The world will hear of this world-breaking insult!

I am a pretty big sports fan, and I didn't notice a thing. Then again, I'm not looking at every name and sigil and hoping to find a corollary in real-world-land. I'm enjoying the damn book.

[StarkofWinterfell]

We know that Ser Patrek was there to represent some Dallas Cowboys fan who won a contest of some sort, with the blue star and such.

And Wun Wun is a "Giant" who kills this allegorical Dallas Cowboy - which I assume is intentional as Martin is a monstrously huge Giants fan. So does Wun Wun's short-form name mean anything? It sounds suspiciously like "One One" and if that is true, the obvious reference there would be Phil Simms, legendary Giants QB with number 11 (a number that is now retired so it cannot refer to any current Giants players).

I'm leaning towards this Phil Simms homage being intentional, but I'd like to hear the opinions of others.

Except GRRM is a Jets fan, not Giants

[Greywolf2375]

I am glad for you that you missed it, I didn't and it threw me off. And I dare to wager that an American Football fan would instantly recognize the "five-pointed blue star on a field of white" as the Dallas Cowboys insignia and then make the connection to "One One" the Giant - apparently Phil Simms is a legend.

Oh, and by the way, Martin is widely heralded as the "American Tolkien", I didn't invent this or came up with the Tolkien comparison on my own.

I'm a 49ers fan. I didn't notice it, nor do I care that he did it anymore than - as Mormont has pointed out - the numerous other references that are in the books. There's actually, like, references to real live people that FREQUENT THE BOARDS! /horror

[Eugs]

As a lifelong Giant's fan I personally love it!! Makes me even bigger fan of the series. Just wish it was so easy in real life. Hopefully Ser Romo goes down as easily as Ser Patrek!

[Eugs]

As a lifelong Giant's fan I personally love it!! Makes me even bigger fan of the series. Just wish it was so easy in real life. Hopefully Ser Romo goes down as easily as Ser Patrek!

[Greywolf2375]

I am glad for you that you missed it, I didn't and it threw me off. And I dare to wager that an American Football fan would instantly recognize the "five-pointed blue star on a field of white" as the Dallas Cowboys insignia and then make the connection to "One One" the Giant - apparently Phil Simms is a legend.

Oh, and by the way, Martin is widely heralded as the "American Tolkien", I didn't invent this or came up with the Tolkien comparison on my own.

I'm a 49ers fan. I didn't notice it, nor do I care that he did it anymore than - as Mormont has pointed out - the numerous other references that are in the books. There's actually, like, references to real live people that FREQUENT THE BOARDS! /horror

[StarkofWinterfell]

Is it really much different from naming characters after Jack Vance, Robert Jordan, and the Three Stooges? Or having House emblems including a Blue Beetle and a Green Arrow? Westeros is full of these sorts of references, and always has been. Some might call it embarrassing - some might say he's just not taking himself too seriously.

There are no characters named Jack Vance or Robert Jordan.

You must be mistaken

[Lord Eddard]

But only one in a thousand would have noticed it (without the web), and out of those few, only one in a thousand would care. You're rage at this minuscule critique is as rare as Bran the Broken.

Hmm, seems to me you are taking my "rage" quite personally. Does it hurt you that I dare to criticize your beloved author or that through this discussion more people become aware of the whole Cowboys/Giants mess?

I ask again because I am genuinely interested: Where is the limit for you? The Giants race developing a fondness of throwing and catching rocks all of a sudden perhaps?

Or is there none, anything that Martin writes is gold and beyond reproach? Then we can pretty much stop discussing.

My limit is the inclusion of real world references for a cheap laugh like the Stooges or American Football and thankfully I am not all alone with these feelings if you read the thread.

(Short) references to other fantasy writers and their work I can stomach.

[Suldog]

Except GRRM is a Jets fan, not Giants

He's a fan of both teams. Which is another topic entirely... :)

[Spartan_MD]

I don't understand the uproar. I'm a huge football fan, and I didn't catch the reference, but now I think it's pretty cool. Tolkien used plenty of these inside jokes being a linguist, for example he hated the french language and placed Bilbo's home at Bag End rather than on the French cul-de-sac.

Personally, I'd love to see a dire wolverine being gutted by a greek style warrior, but that's just me.... :)

[dragginstoned]

Hmm, seems to me you are taking my "rage" quite personally. Does it hurt you that I dare to criticize your beloved author or that through this discussion more people become aware of the whole Cowboys/Giants mess?

I ask again because I am genuinely interested: Where is the limit for you? The Giants race developing a fondness of throwing and catching rocks all of a sudden perhaps?

Or is there none, anything that Martin writes is gold and beyond reproach? Then we can pretty much stop discussing.

My limit is the inclusion of real world references for a cheap laugh like the Stooges or American Football and thankfully I am not all alone with these feelings if you read the thread.

(Short) references to other fantasy writers and their work I can stomach.

I just read the thread. I think the reference is brilliant and not that over the top at all. We all know the series is full of references and easter eggs. They're fun to spot. its part of the magic. But this particular one has you all buttsore like you got buggered by Talhart Cavalry till you shit rabbit fur for a month. Why?

Why is this any cheaper than inverting Star Wars to the point of cutting off Jamie's hand? I mean he's blond, a brilliant swordsman and fucking his twin sister? That wasnt cheap for you but this is?

Tape a glass underneath each of your eyes. GRRM thrives on your tears.

Complain again and I'll parody it all over the interbutts. Dont make me get out the downfall video... Dont. Make. Me.

[witless chum]

I don't understand the uproar. I'm a huge football fan, and I didn't catch the reference, but now I think it's pretty cool. Tolkien used plenty of these inside jokes being a linguist, for example he hated the french language and placed Bilbo's home at Bag End rather than on the French cul-de-sac.

Personally, I'd love to see a dire wolverine being gutted by a greek style warrior, but that's just me.... :)

Jerel Worthy's arm will have to do until Martin gets on that.

And where does the "English Tolkien" get off making all these inside jokes in his books? He'll be subjected to such a harrumphing he won't show his face around the faculty club.

[Kadence]

The Giants have been my favorite team since I was a kid, Phil simms is one of my favorite players ever, and I loathe the Cowboys. I did not catch on to this reference at all until I read about the bet and Patrek being a Cowboy allegory.

I'm sorry to hear some people were bothered by this, but I certainly didn't notice it on my reading and only learned about it afterward. I don't see how any of it, the giant, Patrek's name and sigil, seem out of place in the context of Westeros. It was clearly established in earlier books that there are giants, Patrek's name seems to fit the Westeros naming conventions to me, and his sigil didn't sound out of place with all the other sigils. I'm a bit surprised people were bothered by it. When I read about it later, I was amused and thought it was well done. Ah well. Different strokes and all that.

Indeed. Far less than 1% of readers would catch this reference - you pretty much have to read his blog or the forums to have any chance to catch it, and even the great majority of those people will not catch it unless they read about the bet and Ser Patrek.

I don't understand the uproar.

One lunatic whining hardly constitutes an "uproar" :)

Why is this any cheaper than inverting Star Wars to the point of cutting off Jamie's hand? I mean he's blond, a brilliant swordsman and fucking his twin sister? That wasnt cheap for you but this is?

:blink: Wooow. I totally missed Jaime=Luke Skywalker. I guess this means Martin wishes Lucas had done the incest storyline instead! Wonder if Jaime will meet a female Han Solo. Heh, Sarella would probably be the closest thing, though I doubt they ever meet :)