Jenny of Oldstones Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 God I'm an idiot. I totally missed this possibility, but it makes sense. I just thought it was plain old weirwood sap, but given Jojen's gravity since arriving at the cave...and then I come across this passage:Bran's eyes widened. "They're going to kill me?""No," Meera said. "Jojen, you're scaring him.""He is not the one who needs to be afraid."I thought Jojen was just resentful that Bran was the chosen one and not him, but in this light...ick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Dancing Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 also, just a logistic thing. The human body contains 12 pints of blood or so, and people routinely give when pint when they donate blood. I somehow doubt that the paste was more than 50 percent blood, or that Bran was given more than a quart of it. That would mean that, even if they used Jojen, they wouldn't have needed more than a pint.Excellent point. I think Jojen being MIA in Bran's last chapter likely has to do with something even more serious than cannibalism. Three things I will want to know right away in the next book: 1. Jon alive or dead, 2. What is happening in the weirwood cavern and especially with Jojen, and 3. Is Rickon living on Skagos and what does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoJojo Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Turning Jojen into paste is definitely not the right way to win Bran's friendship. That would seem extremely stupid of Bloodraven. What makes you think Bloodraven gives two shits about winning Bran's friendship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrigan Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 What makes you think Bloodraven gives two shits about winning Bran's friendship?Because he worked really hard at summoning all the way from Winterfell through the crow dreams? Obviously he has something in mind for Bran, and the best way to accomplish whatever that is is through Bran's cooperation, which will come much more easily if he has his friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheepish Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I thought the paste was really just weirwood seeds... the fact that they get tastier and of such things smacks of magic. And that Bran tasted blood because he felt the beginning of the tree.Now I think weirwoods are all sacrificed pre-COTF men. Who were probably pretty bad, considering their bloody hands once covered the whole of Westeros.And Jojen - I didn't even consider that anything had happened to him. I thought he was just sick and he and Meera were both just restless and bored. Damn these boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Because he worked really hard at summoning all the way from Winterfell through the crow dreams? Obviously he has something in mind for Bran, and the best way to accomplish whatever that is is through Bran's cooperation, which will come much more easily if he has his friendship.Yes, of course it would be way better for Bloodraven (and the realm, I think) if Bran trusted him (if not liked him). Galen M makes a good point that blood could have been taken from Jojen without killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Based on the text, I came to believe that Jojen was sacrificed to make the paste. GRRM has shown us the dark side of the other religions in his world, and he's also made it clear that blood magic is the most powerful type of magic there is. The Old Gods having a very dark side is consistent with the story as a whole, and also consistent with the fantasy tradition that old powers are most grim and bloodthirsty. But I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up alive and more-or-less well in the next book . . .While I'm sure Bloodraven knows what's going on, I don't see him as entirely in control of the situation. Only his tree-fueled consciousness is alive, his body is dead and has become part of the trees, so he's as helpless as Bran. The greenseers are tools (for lack of a better term) of the COTF, and they're running the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocBean Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Jojen was definitely in the paste.I remember reading that chapter, and thinking "Ok, Bran, you're eating blood my boy." But I didn't make the connection to Jojen.I've been saying for years that Jojen won't live much longer, and Coldhands will do him in, but I thought we'd see it on screen.I actually like this much better, and assume it will be made much clearer in the next book.I love this storyline, and am honestly shocked that so many people trust Bloodraven, and the Children of the Forest so much.They may not be evil, but they're certainly very alien, and I've assumed since we first met Coldhands that he was on the side of the Others. I don't trust any of them.That last line where Bran says "He could taste the blood." has even more meaning when you think about him tasting the sap blood, rather then the blood soaking into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayne's Sword Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I still dont think its Jojen. although im surprised he lasted this book alive. On screen anyway. I agree that the children just come over..... well wrong.Still holding out that Bloodraven is a "goodie". I ran a Blackfye Rpg last year and i may run it again in the near future. and even now a year later im still jumping between the black and the red dragons. the whole dynamic really caught my iamgination from the Dunk and egg books. so to see BR in Dance was nape hairs standing upright time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 A few thing come into play in my mind lending credence some doubts about the CotF/3EC intentions with Bran/Meera/Jojen/Hodor:1- Cannibalism as a recurring theme in this book.2- Greenseers, do they have to have green or red eyes? Because Bran has blue. Gives me the feeling 3EC is being misleading and has other intentions for Bran.3- Big pile of bones on the stroll down into the caves brought Gendel's Children to mind.4- After Bran eats the weirwood paste, Jojen and Meera are not around. Along with how it looked like it had veins, Bran almost retching it up then thinking it was almost the best thing he ever ate by the time he finishes.5- ColdHands feeding them them some "pigs."6- There has to be some reason the Andals cut down all those weirwood trees. Especially now that we know some of how they can be used.7- Bran seeing the sacrifice through the wierwood and tasting the blood.8- "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." He does mention the moon going through a few changes, but why this particular description of time passing.9- I don't like how they are trapped in the cave with tons of wights just outside blocking their way out. Just seems to well setup.I don't know if any of this necessarily makes them evil, but I do feel like they are being deceptive. They may even be on the good side of this, but that doesn't mean that Bran/Meera/Jojen/Hodor are going to be happy with each of their individual fates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 :agree:I don't believe the Children are evil, but they're certainly not the cuddly tree-hugging bunnies some people still want to believe. They are, however, very clearly of the Darkness and on the opposite side from the followers of the Lord of Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellebore Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 The guess whoose comming to dinner arguement has well... arguements.Please present to me a counter-narrative not based on "but I like Jojen" and I'll give it fair consideration.The this is not the day I die arguement could very well be a red herring. or a bowl of red paste... or bowl of brown.I'm not sure about this whole Jojen paste thing.. but the text seems to point to it somewhat .. But Jojen may have willingly sacrificed some blood for Bran to gain more power.. he needn't sacrifice himself.. how much damn paste would there need to be for a whole body's worth of blood to only show as veining in the paste?! I think if it was Jojen's blood it was given by Jojen ..or at worst taken by force and the COTF have Jojen tied up in the lower tunnels to take more blood as needed .. but I don't think the COTF are bad guys.. I know in these books it's all about everyone having shades of Gray ..so I doubt they're perfect little angels .. but to get back to my point if the paste has blood in it it's either a little of Jojen's but not enough to cause his death.. or maybe it's blood given by one of the COTF?! Thoughts anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think there are too many hints for it not to be Jojen's blood, but while he could clearly spare the little required to provide just one of many ingredients for thesingle bowl fed to Bran, there's no saying who else was getting a ladle-ful from the same pot. If just a drop was required it would no doubt have made a nice little scene with say Jojen's hand being cut and a few drops running into the mix. Instead its all happening somewhere else and the reasonable interpretation is that he's had his throat cut and what blood wasn't required for the magic elixir has gone into the black puddings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think there are too many hints for it not to be Jojen's blood, but while he could clearly spare the little required to provide just one of many ingredients for thesingle bowl fed to Bran, there's no saying who else was getting a ladle-ful from the same pot. If just a drop was required it would no doubt have made a nice little scene with say Jojen's hand being cut and a few drops running into the mix. Instead its all happening somewhere else and the reasonable interpretation is that he's had his throat cut and what blood wasn't required for the magic elixir has gone into the black puddings.Why would he allow his throat to be cut though? For that matter, why would Meera? (Judging from her character, I'd say it's almost certain she wouldn't.) Really, besides Jojen not showing up in the last chapter, I really don't think there's any evidence at all. We know weirwoods have red blood-like sap, why assume it's anything else?The case can be made that he'd do it for Bran if that's what was needed, but since it was only one bowl, they wouldn't need to slit his throat for that, and I can't see him suddenly offering up his life for others he didn't know just so they could get a bit of Jojen blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Who said he "allowed it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lars Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Interesting take, but my instinct about the taste of the paste was that the weirwoods themselves feed on blood, hence the red sap and leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Who said he "allowed it"?Well in that case, I certainly don't think Meera would've stuck around there after they just murdered her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 5- ColdHands feeding them them some "pigs."I can't believe I didn't put this together but that's definitely very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I hope Jojen survives but clearly this is an alien world to him and his sister Meera. They are from the swamp marshy areas teaming with life and magic. they are stuck in a cave with tree people, and a bunch of ghollum like creatures with cat eyes. surrounded by others and wytes. This must be depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I hope they all eventually go somewhere. I don't really relish the idea of them sitting in a cave for the rest of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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