StarkofWinterfell Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Whether it's JojenPaste or tree sap, I don't think the "veins" are literal; I think they're "ribbons" of red that are in the paste but not fully mixed in.This is a candle, but it's kind of what I'm picturing as "veins".http://candlemarketingsweeti.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/swirlycandle.jpgYgritte is right.Did everyone know here that leaves have veins, and that the leaves of the weirwoods are red?Ergo, they have red veins and if this sap was made with some weirwood leaves, it is OK to assume that the leaf veins would appear in the sap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miriel Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 It seemed to me that Jojen was becoming actually sick, not just that he was depressed. I like Jojen and hope that was not the day he dies, but I could see him sacrificing himself or if the COTF are evil that they killed him. I thought he was sick as well. Don't green seers have shorter lives than your average Westerosi? I know Jojen only has green dreams, but maybe he is weaker than an average person b/c of it.The JojenPaste (such an exciting word!) theory seems to be the most plausible, given the evidence in the chapter. However, I feel closing Bran off into the weirwoods and sacrificing his friends seems to run counter to the general theme of maturation and growing up that characterizes all the child POVs in the series. If the JojenPaste theory is true and he was killed offscreen, I doubt we will see much more of Bran as his character now has much less room to interact and develop in interesting ways. Bran yes, defintley, but Jojen did seem a kind of one note character though, and he was not terrbily immature. (I don't want him too be paste though, I'm just saying!)You know, turning Bran into a tree and killing pre-teen Jojen is pretty grim. Too grim now I really think about it. If he is dead then I would assume the CotF are evil and Bran needs to get out of there ....I really hope JojenPaste turns out to be just a crackpot theory, and is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I think evil is very relative. The Children make a compelling argument against humans while Bran is down there. I can't seem to remember it, but something about how they destroy everything. I absolutely think the Children do not have mankind in their best interest.My crackpot theory....They can control the Others, much like Colderhands. If the Others really didn't want Bran to reach the cave, he wouldn't have. I think the Others are more to keep them in than keep them out. Knowing that they would be against the White Walkers, they only let it be known they controlled the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Answer this:Why weren't there fragments of bone or organs in this paste? But you guys say there were veins. Doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Answer this:Why weren't there fragments of bone or organs in this paste? But you guys say there were veins. Doesn't add up.When I make a stew I leave out the bones, liver, and other organs. Why do I do this? I don't know, it just doesn't add up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 When I make a stew I leave out the bones, liver, and other organs. Why do I do this? I don't know, it just doesn't add up...well, as a former chef, this isn't quite right. You use the bones, some organs, etc. to make the base, strain it, and then stew the meat.However, this theory isn't about Jojen stew, it's about a weirwood paste that specifically contains his blood, and blood is one thing that is never used for stew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 well, as a former chef, this isn't quite right. You use the bones, some organs, etc. to make the base, strain it, and then stew the meat.However, this theory isn't about Jojen stew, it's about a weirwood paste that specifically contains his blood, and blood is one thing that is never used for stew.Ummmm..... maybe you haven't gotten the grasp of the Mccormick lazy housewife stew... just add meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Ummmm..... maybe you haven't gotten the grasp of the Mccormick lazy housewife stew... just add meat.just boil the meat, no stock? boring :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miriel Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I think evil is very relative. The Children make a compelling argument against humans while Bran is down there. I can't seem to remember it, but something about how they destroy everything. I absolutely think the Children do not have mankind in their best interest.Agree that evil is relative, and Martin does a great job of illustrating that. And I would not expect the CotF to be all good in a Tolkien elf way. They definitely have to have a bit of grey going on.But, this thread is really making me think about trhe Children. Why were all those bones down there? How creepy is that. And they did seem to feel that mankind had messed everything up.Maybe the CotF are not the saviors I was vaguely assuming they would be ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Dancing Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Why were all those bones down there? Well, I can think of a couple possible reasons. The COTF have lived there for 8,000 years so maybe some of those bones are theirs. Maybe some of the giants took shelter there to escape the Others/Wights and died there. Maybe the COTF have sheltered humans in the past. A lot can happen in 8,000 years. The children have not been treated particularly well by humans. This is why they are living north of the Wall but I strongly doubt that they would prefer a never ending winter with Others ruling Westeros to human rule. The COTF have fought against the Others in the past and I see no compelling reason why they would not again regardless of their feelings for humans. Humans are the lesser evil. Also, Bloodraven is a human and he appears to be the head honcho. Why would he want to erradicate the humans? Doesn't compute for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautodidact Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Varamyr Sixskins in the prologue says "I ate his heart and drank his blood, and still he haunts me." Talking about his skinchaning master Haggon. It's a reach to draw a line between Varamyr/Haggon and Bran/Jojen, but the similarities are there.Both Varamyr and Bran are more powerful than their 'teachers', and Varamyr seems to believe that eating the flesh and blood of Haggon made him more powerful so I imagine the same would apply to Bran/Jojen.A farther out there theory is that Bran will eventually Warg Jojen and take over his body completely. Which though it is a weakened body, is still better than a crippled one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I think Jojen will willingly go to his death to fully bind Bran to the Weirwoods, which will make Bran one of the Old Gods. I don't think he's dead yet. He need to say "This is the day that I die" first. For drama!only reason why i could think he's not dead yetps: i LOVE how we're talking about whether the blood and the organs go in the stew or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Beauty Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 A farther out there theory is that Bran will eventually Warg Jojen and take over his body completely. Which though it is a weakened body, is still better than a crippled one.That doesn't make sense since the books have been heavily foreshadowing that Bran will warg Hodor. There's a lot of stuff about how Bran wargs into Hodor a lot, and Hodor is very traumatised by it, retreating deeper and deeper into himself as a result, implying that eventually there will be nothing of Hodor left, with Bran totally in control of his body.The whole Bran plotline is starting to remind me strongly of the movie Avatar. Mystical alien humanoids? Check. Disabled person finding new freedom by possessing a different body? Check. Mysterious world tree god thing? Check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragginstoned Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 You know what else can happen? A lot of blood sacrifice. Someone has to keep the Weirwood Internet going.I've been calling it treenet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Just noticed in the appendix that one of the Children's name is Blackknife (or something like that).Wonder if he ever uses his obsidian dagger for sacrifices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I've been calling it treenet.epic win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 You know what else can happen? A lot of blood sacrifice. Someone has to keep the Weirwood Internet going.It does look like Children and the First Men were into such sacrifices; others do them to, the Ironborn and the Red Priests seem to do it quasi-constantly lately. Having said that, I don't think the Children are "evil", not anymore than the average human faction in Westeros is, at least. Not in league with the Others. Whatever was in the paste, be it weirwood sap as Bran thought before he ate it, or blood from someone as the text seems to be suggesting to the reader, it is clear that Bran needed it to develop his ability further. And this ability will undoubtedly be needed in the war against the Others. The "veins" are probably just streaks of red in the paste. Could be red weirwood sap (as Bran assumes it to be), could be blood. Blood apparently can have a magical effect on the heart trees, as the sacrifice at the very end of the chapter showed.The line about the moon being a (sharp) crescent appears multiple times in the chapter, and besides adding to the sinister atmosphere (in what is one of the most beautifully written chapters of the whole of ASOIAF, IMO) it seems to show a lot of time has passed while Bran and the Reeds are in the cave. It starts in mid-ADWD, but when this chapter ends, where would Bran be in the timeline relative to Dany and Jon and co? If the answer is close to the end of ADWD (I have no idea, personally), then his next chapter in TWOW could follow up right away after this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Maybe Varys is doing the bidding of the Children of the Forest. Maybe the Children are sick of humans and Varys is doing his best to create chaos, and war. Kevan may have restored some peace to Westeros, so he had to be eliminated. Supporting Dany or any Targ for that matter would be beneficial because he would know the kind of conflict it could create.The Children purchased Varys when he was an Unsullied (something that hasn't been discussed yet), and Varys, being an Unsullied, is bound to his task till the end. Oh if GRRM goes down this path it will be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I don't think Jojen will make it back across the wal but I don't think he was in the paste. I think he's still alive but won't be for long. Something will happen and I think Jojen will have a choice to meet his destiny or run away and will choose death to achieve some other goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 also, just a logistic thing. The human body contains 12 pints of blood or so, and people routinely give when pint when they donate blood. I somehow doubt that the paste was more than 50 percent blood, or that Bran was given more than a quart of it. That would mean that, even if they used Jojen, they wouldn't have needed more than a pint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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