[ADWD SPOILERS] Unrevealed Prophecies

[Kadence]

It was hinted that Aegon came to Westeros based on a prophecy, but there is zero indication that he thought himself to be the PTWP. That seems highly doubtful because if that were actually the case we'd likely have heard of it.

More likely he thought the PTWP would come from his line. We don't know what Aenar Targaryen's vision was, but our best guess is that it indicated that the PTWP would be a Targ descendant.

Serious question though, where did this "sisters who aren't sisters" thing come into play? I don't recall reading that part of the prophecy.

The TS seems to be inventing it. I cannot recall anything like this in the books at all.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Wasn't the whole sister thing just an assumption made by the OP as he/she was trying to flesh out the theory? Either which way, I just realized that if the assumption that the two sisters have some special meaning is correct, and if the conclusion is that Jon marry his "sisters," I'm suddenly not so keen on Arya and Sansa fulfilling those roles... :stillsick:

Either which way; that Aegon believed he was the PTWP and we never heard of it, does not seem so unlikely to me. From what we know, it certainly seems that a number of Targaryens were aware of the prophesy, yet no non-Targaryen character has mentioned it as far as I recall.

ETA: Well, I guess Barristan mentioned it...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"Fire and blood" = a red dragon sigil. I don't think there's any more to it than that, really.

My own pet theory is that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer, and it's a crossed-wires reading of the Night's Watch's vows that has people hunting for a literal sword ("I am the sword in the darkness"). Azor Ahai and the Night's Watch were both involved in the Battle for the Dawn, so it makes sense that they're linked and that a "new" AA would have Night's Watch ties. Perhaps the original Azor Ahai was himself a Night's Watch commander or even the first commander.

[tze]

Wasn't the whole sister thing just an assumption made by the OP as he/she was trying to flesh out the theory? Either which way, I just realized that if the assumption that the two sisters have some special meaning is correct, and if the conclusion is that Jon marry his "sisters," I'm suddenly not so keen on Arya and Sansa fulfilling those roles... :stillsick:

You're correct---the entire line of speculation was geared towards comparing Aegon the Conqueror with our current AA candidates and seeing if that comparison could shed light on what the Targs knew about AA/PTWP that GRRM hasn't yet told readers about. (The idea that Aegon believed himself to be AA reborn is speculation, obviously. But if Aegon the Conqueror thought he was AA reborn, it would go a long way towards explaining why he chose conquering Westeros over rebuilding the Valyrian empire, as Volantis wanted his help in doing. It could provide an explanation for the whole incest thing, as well as clarifying why Rhaegar believed he was AA and then mysteriously abandoned that theory in favor of his son being AA.)

Jon is a candidate for AA, and he has two sisters who are also not his sisters. He shares that quality with Aegon the Conqueror. I'm speculating that Aegon the Conqueror married his sisters, not because it was a Valyrian custom or because it was necessary for dragonriding, but because he misinterpreted an as-yet-unrevealed AA prophecy as requiring him to marry his sisters so that they would be both his sisters and not his sisters. Jon, if R+L=J, has accomplished the same thing (Sansa and Arya are his true sisters, via the Ghost/Lady/Nymeria relationship, and also not his biological sisters) but without the creepy incest.

In ADWD, the High Priest of R'hllor in Volantis started going on about how death itself will bend the knee to AA. That certainly hasn't been included in any prophecies Mel has given us. And various Targs were studying prophecies for years---there has to be more here that we haven't yet been told.

I must say, I don't understand how anyone could read the original post and think I was claiming that the "sisters who are not his sisters" comparison was a prophecy GRRM had explicitly given us. Was the title "Unrevealed Prophecies" unclear here?

"Fire and blood" = a red dragon sigil. I don't think there's any more to it than that, really.

But Valyrian families don't appear to have had House mottoes. The Targs probably chose "Fire and Blood" as a motto after landing.

Aegon the Conqueror was associated with the black dragon, yet every time someone in the novels or in the Dunk/Egg novellas starts going on about the "black dragon" they mean the Blackfyres, the false Targaryens. This, to me, seems odd.

My own pet theory is that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer, and it's a crossed-wires reading of the Night's Watch's vows that has people hunting for a literal sword ("I am the sword in the darkness"). Azor Ahai and the Night's Watch were both involved in the Battle for the Dawn, so it makes sense that they're linked and that a "new" AA would have Night's Watch ties. Perhaps the original Azor Ahai was himself a Night's Watch commander or even the first commander.

I like this theory.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But Valyrian families don't appear to have had House mottoes. The Targs probably chose "Fire and Blood" as a motto after landing.

Aegon the Conqueror was associated with the black dragon, yet every time someone in the novels or in the Dunk/Egg novellas starts going on about the "black dragon" they mean the Blackfyres, the false Targaryens. This, to me, seems odd.

Why couldn't the sigil and the motto be contemporaries? I don't see how "fire and blood" couldn't still translate directly to the red dragon sigil without some other overly complicated subtext being involved. Sometimes a rock is just a rock.

Well the Blackfyres are more recent and more "on the mind" in the Dunk and Egg stories, aren't they? So it'd make sense for them to have displaced Aegon for the time being in terms of referencing "black dragons." I don't find it particularly odd.

[hotweaselsoup]

The bastard sigil is the sigil of the main house, only with the colors reversed. The Blackfyre sigil is a black dragon on a red field - hence the "black dragons".

That said, it does seem strange that Aegon took a red dragon, and not a black, as his sigil in the first place. In light of the bastard "Blackfyre", It's also interesting that Balerion was said to breathe black fire. (Black fire, shadow fire, dark flame - light and darkness together, oxymoronically? :dunno:)

[hotweaselsoup]

hotweaselsoup

I think your last sentence captures exactly what I think will happen... :crying: And I don't think the PtwP is Dany.

Yeah, I think the ptwp is either Jon or Bran. Old Nan's story of the Last Hero tells of him (or her) going off to seek the aid of the Children of the Forest. Old Nan gets interrupted, so of course we don't know what happens exactly - but since humanity is still around, we can assume that the Last Hero found the Children, and learned from them the ancient magics that threw back the Others. But, I think we can also assume that the Children probably didn't give the Last Hero the intel for nothing. So, what was promised in return?

[Eyron]

"Fire and blood" = a red dragon sigil. I don't think there's any more to it than that, really.

My own pet theory is that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer, and it's a crossed-wires reading of the Night's Watch's vows that has people hunting for a literal sword ("I am the sword in the darkness"). Azor Ahai and the Night's Watch were both involved in the Battle for the Dawn, so it makes sense that they're linked and that a "new" AA would have Night's Watch ties. Perhaps the original Azor Ahai was himself a Night's Watch commander or even the first commander.

I like it too, it hurt my eyes the first time I saw it but I have surrendered, and I think it is the neatest and best theory of the AA and lightbringer around. And since I am inclined to interpret the stories and prophecies in this more non literal fashion it's actually strange why I did not like it at first sight. I had invested my ideas in other theories and did not want to part from them so easily I think :)

Tze, I agree with you on the dragon sigil, why did he choose a red dragon? Why not let the dragonheads be in the different colours of their dragons or just black like his dragon?

The bastard sigil is the sigil of the main house, only with the colors reversed. The Blackfyre sigil is a black dragon on a red field - hence the "black dragons".

That said, it does seem strange that Aegon took a red dragon, and not a black, as his sigil in the first place. In light of the bastard "Blackfyre", It's also interesting that Balerion was said to breathe black fire. (Black fire, shadow fire, dark flame - light and darkness together, oxymoronically? :dunno:)

Interesting that Balerion breathed black fire. I have to think on this...

But about the bastard Blackfyre, was he not called that after he received the sword Blackfyre? That was Aegon I sword.

I think the Last Hero had to give something in return to the CotF too. I have not figured out what though. I keep thinking it has to do with Winterfell, and that there always have to be a Stark in Winterfell. And that the Starks have manned the Wall for 8000 years or so they say.

[Black Crow]

I think the Last Hero had to give something in return to the CotF too. I have not figured out what though. I keep thinking it has to do with Winterfell, and that there always have to be a Stark in Winterfell.

I like this suggestion.

As you all know I'm firmly of the belief that the Children and the Others are one and the same. The fact that Old Nan's story was interrupted means that something very important is being kept from us. Now given that a lone hero, no matter how heroic, with no dog and a lost or broken sword, is going to have a bit of an uphill struggle to reverse what is clearly a lost war all by his little self, what really happened?

Did the Children call off their dogs, the White Walkers, in return for something from the Starks. Are the Starks in some way bound to the Children and is this why the Direwolves were sent and Bran has been taken?

[PatrickStormborn]

Yeah, I think the ptwp is either Jon or Bran. Old Nan's story of the Last Hero tells of him (or her) going off to seek the aid of the Children of the Forest. Old Nan gets interrupted, so of course we don't know what happens exactly - but since humanity is still around, we can assume that the Last Hero found the Children, and learned from them the ancient magics that threw back the Others. But, I think we can also assume that the Children probably didn't give the Last Hero the intel for nothing. So, what was promised in return?

I'm not disagreeing with you and respect your opinion, but may I ask why you think the prince who was promised will be Jon or Bran, rather than Daenerys? I see a lot of posters talking about how they think those are TPWWP, but I haven't ever seen many reasons as to why they think this.

[Black Crow]

Is Prince Bran the Prince That Was Promised - to the Children - by the Last Hero?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not disagreeing with you and respect your opinion, but may I ask why you think the prince who was promised will be Jon or Bran, rather than Daenerys? I see a lot of posters talking about how they think those are TPWWP, but I haven't ever seen many reasons as to why they think this.

I can only speak for myself, but I can only really see Dany as AA in conjunction with other people (as in, there are three AAs). I reject the idea that she, on her own, is AA. I think she's a sleight of hand, the "obvious" choice who peaked early and had people thinking that the prophecy had been fulfilled when in fact it hadn't been yet.

I like it too, it hurt my eyes the first time I saw it but I have surrendered, and I think it is the neatest and best theory of the AA and lightbringer around. And since I am inclined to interpret the stories and prophecies in this more non literal fashion it's actually strange why I did not like it at first sight. I had invested my ideas in other theories and did not want to part from them so easily I think :)

Thanks! I'm quite fond of it and the more I think about it and rewrite it, the better it looks to me. :)

[kephv]

As you all know I'm firmly of the belief that the Children and the Others are one and the same.

How so? One group is normal sized and pale and cold, the other is small of stature and doesn't have strange glowy eyes.

[Eyron]

I like this suggestion.

As you all know I'm firmly of the belief that the Children and the Others are one and the same. The fact that Old Nan's story was interrupted means that something very important is being kept from us. Now given that a lone hero, no matter how heroic, with no dog and a lost or broken sword, is going to have a bit of an uphill struggle to reverse what is clearly a lost war all by his little self, what really happened?

Did the Children call off their dogs, the White Walkers, in return for something from the Starks. Are the Starks in some way bound to the Children and is this why the Direwolves were sent and Bran has been taken?

:)

I am still holding to my theory that the children are not the Others...

I think the Starks were involved with the Others somehow, maybe they sacrificed to them, treated them like gods (like Craster) or something, and it came back to bite them. The hero went to the CotF for help, because he knew the CotF had their ways to deal with the Others. They demanded a price, and he payed and got the obsidian and whatever else they gave, the help of the giants to build the Wall, the magic to stop the Others or the power to warg, I don't know.

I think the price is related to the bones in the crypts, that they are kept there for eternity and can never rest, very much like the greenseers of the past, but in a nastier place. The swords that keep the spirits bound there has something to do with this I think, maybe they are there to guard the north like the 79 sentinels and all of the the NW and whatever sacrifices had to go into building the Wall. Yeez maybe the giants are sleeping IN the wall!!! like the sentinels buried in the ice...

My first thought was that there always must be a Stark in the NW, for every generation there has to be one, but I don't know if it adds up. But it would make sense if Mance is a Stark (or a Snow) and he was sent there as a baby because there had to be one for a very profound reason and whoever where there before had died or deserted, and before he took off from the Shadow Tower Benjen had arrived in Castle Black IIRC.

[Eyron]

And before Benjen went north never to return, Jon had arrived...

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

My own pet theory is that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer, and it's a crossed-wires reading of the Night's Watch's vows that has people hunting for a literal sword ("I am the sword in the darkness"). Azor Ahai and the Night's Watch were both involved in the Battle for the Dawn, so it makes sense that they're linked and that a "new" AA would have Night's Watch ties. Perhaps the original Azor Ahai was himself a Night's Watch commander or even the first commander.

If this is true, the story of the forging of Lightbringer should probably* not be taken literally. I wonder what water/lion/Nissa Nissa could be metaphors for? E.g. Nissa Nissa: Blood sacrifice for the magic in the Wall, or perhaps simply the part of the NW oath about taking no wife, fathering no children.

*There could have been an actual sword as well, I guess.

[PatrickStormborn]

I can only speak for myself, but I can only really see Dany as AA in conjunction with other people (as in, there are three AAs). I reject the idea that she, on her own, is AA. I think she's a sleight of hand, the "obvious" choice who peaked early and had people thinking that the prophecy had been fulfilled when in fact it hadn't been yet.

Okay. I can see where you're coming from, although I personally disagree. Stannis is the obvious red herring - not just to the readers, but to Westeros itself. I don't think he can be revealed to be a fake AA/PWWP by Dany ("slayer of lies"), only for her to then be revealed as a fake AA/PWWP. Especially considering that there are only two books left.

And apart from that, she's the only character to have actually fulfilled the prophecy. She was born amidst salt and smoke, and woke dragons from stone at the end of the long summer beneath the red star. The conditions have already been set, which is why I don't think that anyone else can fulfill the prophecy now. (I know some people think the prophecy won't be literal, and that the bleeding star might be a sigil... but I think too much emphasis has been placed on that particular comet for it to not be important.)

I think that the thing we should be trying to figure out now is who the other two heads of the dragon are. I do see why people are still questioning who Azor Ahai Reborn/The Prince Who Was Promised is, but I think the point Martin is trying to make is that the prophecy isn't the most important part of the story. It was fulfilled before we even found out about it, and by someone who no other character would have even considered.

If Jon or Bran is TPWWP, would they still be a dragon rider? I see Bran's role as being very different from that of Dany's (and the other two heads of the dragon, who for various reasons I believe to be Jon and Tyrion). Because if, for example, Jon is TPWWP and is riding a dragon, he'd be riding Rhaegal or Viserion. I know it's not exactly concrete evidence, but it wouldn't really make much sense from a literary point of view to have the main hero of the series on one of the smaller dragons. :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If this is true, the story of the forging of Lightbringer should probably* not be taken literally. I wonder what water/lion/Nissa Nissa could be metaphors for? E.g. Nissa Nissa: Blood sacrifice for the magic in the Wall, or perhaps simply the part of the NW oath about taking no wife, fathering no children.

*There could have been an actual sword as well, I guess.

I had a thread a few days ago that was just about my "Lightbringer is the Night's Watch" theory, and proposed that the Nissa Nissa thing is directly linked to the Night's Watch men being unable to marry.

[hotweaselsoup]

Interesting that Balerion breathed black fire. I have to think on this...

But about the bastard Blackfyre, was he not called that after he received the sword Blackfyre? That was Aegon I sword.

Yes, you are right I think. Too many sigils and other sundry details to keep track of!

I think the Last Hero had to give something in return to the CotF too. I have not figured out what though. I keep thinking it has to do with Winterfell, and that there always have to be a Stark in Winterfell. And that the Starks have manned the Wall for 8000 years or so they say.

I think you are right here, too. There is definitely the sense that there is some ancient agreement/pact between the Starks and the Children. I also think that "The North remembers" has something to do with the idea that the North remembers that long-ago Stark sacrifice (whatever it was/is).

I'm not disagreeing with you and respect your opinion, but may I ask why you think the prince who was promised will be Jon or Bran, rather than Daenerys? I see a lot of posters talking about how they think those are TPWWP, but I haven't ever seen many reasons as to why they think this.

Well, it's more a gut feeling than a well-reasoned conclusion, but it is centered around the idea (sketched above) that the PtwP is an entity who will be sacrificed to honor a long-ago pact. Right now, I'm thinking that the pact was made between the Starks and the Children, but it could be even more elementally between the First Men and the Old Gods, and it's for this reason that I think either Bran or Jon best fit this idea of a "promised prince". That said, both Aemon and Melisandre think of the PtwP as synonymous with Azor Ahai, and clearly Daenarys best fits the AA prophesy. Saalador Saan describes Azor Ahai as forging Lightbringer in the sacred fires of a temple, so I've always envisioned Azor Ahai as a red priest from Essos - which is pretty far removed from the Starks and the frozen north of Westeros!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay. I can see where you're coming from, although I personally disagree. Stannis is the obvious red herring - not just to the readers, but to Westeros itself. I don't think he can be revealed to be a fake AA/PWWP by Dany ("slayer of lies"), only for her to then be revealed as a fake AA/PWWP. Especially considering that there are only two books left.

Stannis is the red herring within the story. We, the readers, know that Stannis is a fraud, but not everyone in Westeros does. Dany is the red herring outside of the story — the person that readers themselves have been led to believe is the leading candidate for AA. That might be worded confusingly, but I see a definite difference between "Stannis isn't the real AA" and "Dany isn't the real AA." One is used in dramatic irony terms (Stannis), and one is a narrative sleight of hand (Dany). Martin does something similar with Cersei's "younger and more beautiful queen." The dramatic irony "fake" is Margaery (whom Cersei suspects), while Dany is again likely to be the sleight-of-hand "fake" (whom readers are led to suspect). Watch the queen of the prophecy turn out to be neither of them.

I also think that Dany can prove Stannis is a fake without having to be AA herself. And really, for all the prophecies and epithets related to Dany (mother of dragons, slayer of lies, whatever), none of them really suggest that she alone is AA. There's no "savior/messiah" thing going on there. Sure there are priests and people like Aemon who think she's AA, but the actual prophecies that she's heard herself don't point to that, at least in my interpretation. You could argue that the fact that so many people, so early in the story think that Dany is AA is an even stronger indicator that in the end, she isn't.