[ADWD SPOILERS] Unrevealed Prophecies

[Eyron]

I interpreted the whole Targaryen incest thing as a means to keep the blood pure since there were no other Valyrian dragonlords and ladies around to marry.

That they made do with other people at times, and looked for Valyrian descendants when the blood line was thinning out.

But I could have gotten that wrong.

[tze]

I interpreted the whole Targaryen incest thing as a means to keep the blood pure since there were no other Valyrian dragonlords and ladies around to marry.

That they made do with other people at times, and looked for Valyrian descendants when the blood line was thinning out.

But I could have gotten that wrong.

Euron thinks he can control a dragon with his horn, and the Greyjoys don't appear to have any Valyrian blood at all.

As a practical matter, I'd be shocked if GRRM has "purity of blood grants you special abilities" as a theme. To me, that sounds very . . . Nazi-esque?

[Cydal]

If you can find a textual source for that, I'd love to see it. The whole "incest was needed to control dragons" theory is, I think, something fans came up with on these boards that has been repeated so many times that many people assume it's gospel. The Dance of the Dragons, for example, involved Rhaenyra, whose mother was an Arryn, and Aegon, whose mother was a Hightower, and they were both dragonriders; their parents didn't need to be siblings for them to ride dragons.

Obviously they don't need to marry themselves all the time, they do it occasionally to keep the blood line as pure as possible makes sense. I am pretty sure it was mentioned in the book that Valyrians did it, I know because I knew this even before I joined this forum or any other. It was mentioned I AGOT I think in Dany's chapter. I will find it if I can.

[Eyron]

Euron thinks he can control a dragon with his horn, and the Greyjoys don't appear to have any Valyrian blood at all.

As a practical matter, I'd be shocked if GRRM has "purity of blood grants you special abilities" as a theme. To me, that sounds very . . . Nazi-esque?

I think you misunderstood me, what I meant was that this was the Targaryens reason for intermarrying, because THEY believe it is important.

I don't think the blood matters :) I have tried to make a point of it actually. I think GRRM is making a statement with all the uncertain identities and their sense of self and that is that blood does not matter to your identity, family goes beyond that, as do sense of duty sometimes (seen in Dany when Viserys was killed).

[tze]

Obviously they don't need to marry themselves all the time, they do it occasionally to keep the blood line as pure as possible makes sense. I am pretty sure it was mentioned in the book that Valyrians did it, I know because I knew this even before I joined this forum or any other. It was mentioned I AGOT I think in Dany's chapter. I will find it if I can.

Is it this?

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men.Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.

If that's what you're referring to, I don't think that's evidence that Valyrian blood actually gives a person any advantages in dragonriding. Viserys wasn't exactly a learned or neutral source.

Honestly, the idea that "purity of blood" is something that grants you special gifts . . . well, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I think many people would agree.

I think you misunderstood me, what I meant was that this was the Targaryens reason for intermarrying, because THEY believe it is important.

I don't think the blood matters :) I have tried to make a point of it actually. I think GRRM is making a statement with all the uncertain identities and their sense of self and that is that blood does not matter to your identity, family goes beyond that, as do sense of duty sometimes (seen in Dany when Viserys was killed).

Okay then, I misunderstood you. :) I absolutely agree that seeking pure blood isn't going to end up being a virtue.

[Eyron]

Hey Tze did you miss this part in the quote?

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men.Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.

So since Aegon huh.

And the part that they do not mate with the beast of the field implies that they do not marry those who are not dragons. Other dragonlords would do I suppose so nothing in this quote says Valyrians intermarry within families specifically.

[Sevumar]

Euron thinks he can control a dragon with his horn, and the Greyjoys don't appear to have any Valyrian blood at all.

As a practical matter, I'd be shocked if GRRM has "purity of blood grants you special abilities" as a theme. To me, that sounds very . . . Nazi-esque?

And nobody's blood is really that pure anyway, as the Jaime chapter in ADWD highlights for us. Too many people's ideas about identity and power are tied to the "purity" of blood in a land where there's actually a lot of shared blood.

[Sevumar]

And the part that they do not mate with the beast of the field implies that they do not marry those who are not dragons. Other dragonlords would do I suppose so nothing in this quote says Valyrians intermarry within families specifically.

I think the problem is that one character (Catelyn) has some reason to believe that Targ incestuous polygamy goes back to the practices of Valyria. Viserys only seems to know about his family's history since Dragonstone, but he's not that great a source of information.

The fact of the matter is that early in the Targaryen rule of Westeros, they married out of their own family and they have several times down the line. Viserys might believe that the dragon is better than "the beasts of the field" but he shows through his own behavior that that ideal is not one that the family has ever lived up to.

[Black Crow]

And of course the celebrated Targaryen madness could be down to their inbreeding - not healthy at all

[FanTasy]

As a practical matter, I'd be shocked if GRRM has "purity of blood grants you special abilities" as a theme. To me, that sounds very . . . Nazi-esque?

Exactly. And mudbloody.

[Eyron]

@ sevumar

yeah I know, I have made a familytree for the royal Targaryens from Dany and her brothers back to Aegon and Rhaenys. Genetically they stopped being inbred with Aerys the Mad king and Rhaella. So that Dany can hatch dragons have nothing to do with how much dragonblood she has, it was something else that made it possible.

According to GRRM the Targs can handle more heat than most but that is all. It is not a big deal.

Black Crow don't get me started on the inbreeding!!! It is not a factor anymore. Look at the last three generations before Aerys, who did they marry?

[tze]

Hey Tze did you miss this part in the quote?

So since Aegon huh.

Nah, didn't miss it. I'm just at the point where I take every word Viserys ever said with a gigantic grain of salt, so relying on literally anything he says is very difficult to contemplate. :)

And of course the celebrated Targaryen madness could be down to their inbreeding - not healthy at all

And then there's this.

Black Crow don't get me started on the inbreeding!!! It is not a factor anymore. Look at the last three generations before Aerys, who did they marry?

To be fair, we don't know who Maekar's wife was, nor do we know Aegon V's wife (all we know is that he married for love, and that could've meant he picked one sister over the other), nor do we know who Jaehaerys II's wife was. They could have all married their sisters, we just don't know; (it would certainly explain Aerys's madness if they were, however). But at the same time, if they were all marrying their sisters, it certainly didn't help them hatch dragon eggs, and we know the Targs had been trying for a while, so I agree that there's no evidence at all that "pure" Targ blood allows you to hatch dragons.

[Eyron]

Well I just think that since all the other Targaryen queens have been named, why would these three be both not named as queens and not mentioned amongst their siblings?

Maekars sisters are named and both had children with other men, one married their brother Aerys I.

Aegon V could have been in love with one of his sisters I guess, we will have to wait and see about that.

Jaehaerys II had one sister and she married a Baratheon, so no Targ there.

Edit: mistake, Maekar had only one sister and she wed their brother Aerys. So unless there is a forgotten princess here he did not marry a sister...

[Dragonfish]

I really don't know how to make myself any clearer. Sansa and Arya will always be Jon's sisters, even if R+L=J, because they were all bonded (for greater and lesser lengths of time) to direwolves from the same litter. To the vast, vast, vast majority of people in ASOIAF, a wife isn't a sister and a sister cannot be a wife. I'm saying there's a parallel between Aegon the Conqueror and Jon, in that Rhaenys/Visenya served two different "relationship" roles to Aegon (as wives and as sisters) which would ordinarily be impossible, just as Sansa and Arya serve two different "relationship" roles to Jon (as true sisters and as biological cousins) that would ordinarily be impossible, as most cousins don't have the option of being bonded to sibling direwolves.

I understand what you're saying, I just think "sisters who are not his sisters" is a poor way of phrasing it. It makes it sound as if Aegon's sisters ceased to be his sisters or something.

[tze]

I understand what you're saying, I just think "sisters who are not his sisters" is a poor way of phrasing it. It makes it sound as if Aegon's sisters ceased to be his sisters or something.

Okay. I used this phrase because, honestly, I'm just not sure how else to express this idea without resorting to a paragraph of explanation. :) They're his "sisters", but they also embody roles that would ordinarily mean they couldn't be his sisters. But I can see this phrasing could lead to confusion.

[The Mother of The Others]

There's an obvious problem in that we've got two different mythologies; one from Westeros speaking of the Last Hero and one from Essos or further east speaking of Azor Ahai. They could fundamentally be one and the same, but what if they are different?

Well if Stormy & Jon are Azor and Last Hero reborn, respectively, then instead of them leading opposing armies into battle they'll see each other, fall to the ground and have hot sex in the snow while Belwas looks on. Problem solved. Ice and Fire resolving their issues by getting it on.

[FanTasy]

Its a bit hard to tell after 8,000-odd years, but given the circumstances related in Old Nan's tale I'd tend to suspect that the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are two different people - unless of course Azor Ahai translates as Last Hero.

I have a theory... (well somebody's got to)

There's an obvious problem in that we've got two different mythologies (not histories 8,000 years on, but mythologies); one from Westeros speaking of the Last Hero and one from Essos or further east speaking of Azor Ahai. They could fundamentally be one and the same, but what if they are different?

First of all: I like your thinking and the thinking of all those other clever posters. I stumbled upon this board and thought, no this is not my cup of tea. But I drank some of it and liked it. Because understanding and knowledge is only obtained by learning from other people's thoughts. And on this board there is a pretty big community of good minds.

Back to this unrevealed prophecy thing.

It is good thinking to consider that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero could be one as well as different.

There is another mythology that could be meaningful here.

The Dothraki also believe in some hero being born: the mythology of the stallion that mounts the world.

Could this Dothraki-mythology basically be the same as elsewhere called Azor Ahai, or Last Hero, or Prince That Was Promised?

In every mythology or belief there is someone who saves humanity or parts of humanity.

This Stallion-prophecy the Dothraki believe in is of course very basic and simple: their hero is a conquering hero, that submits other people to Dothraki-rule and use. That fits in their way of thinking. But basically all mythology is like that, there are always others (or maybe Others) that have to be conquered to be erased from this world or made to submit to those who win.

If the Stallion-prophecy is not the same, that makes it simple: just another prophecy. Nice that we had a trip to Dothraki-county but it was just instrumental to get Dany in possession of the three dragons, get her to Meereen and later to Westeros. She has to go east to go west.

But what if the Dothraki mythology is the same, then things become very interesting and it could give more meaning to the Dothraki-storyline in the bigger picture of things

Dany gave birth to what the Dothraki - and she - believed to be the fulfillment of the prophecy. The promised stallion did not live but evenso the prophecy of someone with the capability could be fulfilled. Prophecies don't always bring exactly what they promise, even if they are fulfilled.

Many consider Dany as the one in which one of the other prophecies is fulfilled: born in smoke and salt etcetera. My problem with this is the comet-thing, if that was the bleeding of the stars.

I always thought it was implied that when the comet was seen in the sky the promised one will be re-born or act upon the prophecy.

Dany was born long before the comet showed, as was Stannis. Of course there could be some re-birthing going on, as Melisandre thought happened with Stannis.

But ... we know of an actual birth that took place when the comet was there: the child Dany gave birth to.

Could it be that the prophecy of Azor Ahai has already been fulfilled, that night on the Dothraki plains? By Dany, as a means to an end?

Or / and has she still to fulfill a part of the prophecy or a separate prophecy?

And what, if anything, does this mean for what Jon - if he is not dead - still has to do?

Well, here are my thoughts. Mind you, I am far from convinced that these are correct - and very interested in your reactions on this.

_{- Sorry edited, English is not my native tongue}

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Well if Stormy & Jon are Azor and Last Hero reborn, respectively, then instead of them leading opposing armies into battle they'll see each other, fall to the ground and have hot sex in the snow while Belwas looks on. Problem solved. Ice and Fire resolving their issues by getting it on.

I could see that. If Dany weren't so annoying lately... :)

[Clementine]

Well, since everyone's discussing pet theories about AAR/PTWP... ^_^

How is this related to ASOIAF? Let's say the wacky seasons of Westeros and impending ice zombie apocalypse are the result of or cause a magical imbalance. AAR/PTWP's appointed task is to correct this imbalance by fighting and, presumably, defeating the Others in the war for the dawn. Now consider that, had events like Brandon brashly challenging Rhaegar in King's Landing gone differently, Robert's Rebellion may have ended with the Targaryen dynasty still intact or, indeed, never happened at all. Who would've been AAR/PTWP then? Rhaegar? Aegon? The list goes on and on.

So, it makes sense to me that the identity of AAR/PTWP is not set in stone but conforms or, rather, adapts to the course of events as determined by free will. Dany may have held the title when she births the dragons. However, by swanning about Essos for her next three to four books without an inkling that there's an existential threat for her to face half a world away, another potential candidate, Jon, has been chosen by fate. Or, really, the magical underpinnings of ASOIAF's universe that mere mortals interpret as fate, shaped by chance and choice like a river's flow might be diverted by natural and man-made obstacles.

In my view, any and all of the proposed AAR/PTWP contenders can fulfill the relevant prophecies, in whole or part, consecutively or concurrently. My speculation's that Jon takes the role until Dany finally arrives in Westeros, at which point the two may share. With Bran and others, like the riders of the dragons, also contributing.

First of all Yeade, this is a truly amazing theory and I'm definitely glad you hijacked the thread to post it :) I'm going to attempt to grapple with some of the points you brought up if I may. Sorry if this reads pretty rough

So if I understand you correctly, and in keeping with your Star Wars analogy (although I apologize, I’m not overly familiar with Star Wars), the Targaryens would be a ‘lightening rod ‘for AA/PTWP, correct?

One of the reasons why I like this is exactly for the reasons you mentioned in your 2^nd post- agency. The problem with prophecies in general is that they deny free will of the characters, and makes the story that much more predictable/deterministic.

Well, since everyone's discussing pet theories about Maybe around the time five(?) thousand years ago when the prophecy of AAR/PTWP originates? Hence why the terminology of the war for the dawn is largely eastern and an organized religion (R'hllor) dedicated to the concept has sprung up on that continent whereas, in Westeros, memory of the Long Night has faded to Old Nan's tales and northern traditions like the Stark words or NW vows. Essos simply fights off the Others or their Shadow counterparts thousands of years more recently than Westeros. This all might even tie into Valyria, which is on the rise then, and thus the Targaryens. Who would have reason to believe their dragons are crucial to defeating the Others if they've done so before. Food for thought, I hope. Or, you know, crazy talk. :blush:

Over on the Lighbringer = Night’s Watch thread, someone mentioned that if in fact Lightbringer is the Night’s Watch, then AA ( or one of the AAs) would by extension also have to be a Lord Commander of the Nights Watch ( since it’s the LC of the Night’s Watch that ‘wields’ Lightbringer]. So perhaps the LC of the Night’s Watch is another one of those ‘lightening rods’”, that focus the ‘prophetic energy', which is why the Night's Watch was founded in the first place?

This makes sense when you mentioned the possible overland linkage between Westeros and Essos. The Targs were originally from Essos – perhaps they were meant to ‘guard the balance’ in the East then, like the Night’s Watch in the West? Or if not the Targs themselves, then perhaps any dragonriders ( of whom the Targs are the only survivors) or an equivalent organization to the Night's Watch that was lost in Old Valyria ( associated with Quaithe’s origins perhaps?).

So then, could the shadows that Mel uses be ‘fire Others’, the equal-but-opposite to the White Walkers? I could be biased here since the red priests have always creeped me out, but perhaps it’s the red priests (among other things potentially) that have screwed up the balance with those shadows, and the white walkers exist to restore that balance back? Perhaps this is where the Doom of Valyria fits in, since its mentioned in the books that Valyria is covered in Shadows now. Maybe the Doom of Valyria is part of the cause for the unbalance? Since many people here believe that the Others are not entirely evil, this fits - they’re just a natural phenomenon of a magical world, like hurricanes are in our world. This is why AA( or the AA collective, lol) has to be the song of Ice and Fire - alluding to that balance.

I disagree somewhat, though, in that I do think that the exact circumstances of the first AA prophecy are relevant, if only to guide people to suspect possible sources of the new AA, and to eliminate some contenders. But yeah, overall I like the idea that the events that are currently going on in the world shape who AA can be, and this changes over time.

On a possible side note - Remember how the wildlings were spooked out by Craster making the sacrifices of his male children to the white walkers? Perhaps there is ( or was) an older faith beyond the wall that is the ‘ice’ parallel to the Rhillor religion, and the First men used to do blood sacrifices to the ‘ice’ others like the red priests do to the ‘fire’ others ( causing the children of the forest to intervene).

I could go on, but maybe I've just thread-jacked too. But either way I think your idea of 'balance' and malleable prophecies is really getting at the heart of the series. So if you want to open up another thread to discuss this, you definitely won't be talking to yourself :)

[Lannister_Lion]

I swear in ADWD the COTF are mentioned as distant brethren to the Giants.