Kings of the first men

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

in the series we come across a few parts where kings of the first men are said to have had their seat before the annals came. i'd really like some information on them, where they ruled, how long, and how they accumulated and kept their power as well as some info on any offshoots they might of had and if any of them are still alive as lesser lords. its a given that this would also cover the long history of the starks. i think it would so awesome to see how they took control of the north, as well as getting any info on the offshoot houses. right now we know about the karstarks, and the greystarks that held white harbor before the manderlys but were there more.

[NotToday]

The original inhabitants of Westeros were the Children of the Forest who had only weapons made of Dragonglass (Obsidean). The First Men were able to dominate them using bronze weapons and superior physical prowess (children of the forest were very small).

The north is the only place which does not have a lot of Andals, so likely most people there are descended from the First Men (Starks included). I think the Westerlings were also descended from the first men. We know that they sealed a pact with the Children of the forest on the isle of the faces (In the God's eye) wchich gave them dominion in the cities, and the children rule of the forests.

[dragginstoned]

in the series we come across a few parts where kings of the first men are said to have had their seat before the annals came. i'd really like some information on them, where they ruled, how long, and how they accumulated and kept their power as well as some info on any offshoots they might of had and if any of them are still alive as lesser lords. its a given that this would also cover the long history of the starks. i think it would so awesome to see how they took control of the north, as well as getting any info on the offshoot houses. right now we know about the karstarks, and the greystarks that held white harbor before the manderlys but were there more.

The First men didnt have seven kingdoms, that is an Andal construct.

There were many kingdoms amoungst eht first men, even in the north.

We know that the Starks were the "Kings of Winter" before the rest of the north bent the knee, each lord and king in turn. A King of the Neck was also mentioned (presumably the forebearers of the Reeds).

The Blackwoods and Brakens were kings before the Andals. And so were the Darrys. And the Casterlys of casterly rock, and (castemere?). etc.

[GreenHand]

We are told that the Andals descended on the Kingdoms of the First Men, conquering and carving out the 7 Kingdoms (a seemingly Andal construct).

However the Storm Kings and the Gardner Kings were First Men. They were the Lords of two of the Seven Kingdoms, and those of their blood continued to reign over what we are told were Andal conquests right up until the Targaryen conquest. If if there was some intermarriage They were still of the blood of the First Men, as much as the Starks who are said to have resisted the Andals.

Could someone clear up this discrepancy for me?

[The hairy bear]

However the Storm Kings and the Gardner Kings were First Men. (...)

Could someone clear up this discrepancy for me?

It is said that the Storm Kings and the Gardner Kings had "First Men" ancestry, but they were Andal families still. Probably they intermarried with First Men during their conquest, either to get some legitimacy, or to acquire the lands of some local lord. But they remained Andal in Faith and culture.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Many families, like the Brackens, converted to Faith to avoid being wiped out. It's possible that the Gardiners and the Storm Kings did it too.

[GreenHand]

OK, let's shift focus to the one lineage of "pure blood" First Men Kings. It is typical for Kings of the North to marry daughters of their bannermen, also descended from the First Men (except those at White Harbour). Is there any mention of a Stark marrying someone of Andal blood before Catelyn Tully? I would have thought this break was a big deal in the Stark history. Rickard Stark's Southron ambitions may have been politically advantageous but it dilutes the blood of the first men in the North.

In defending his choice of Jeyne Westerling as a wife Robb Stark says to Catelyn that she is from an ancient house. I assume this refers to their being descended from First Men. This they are, but they have intermarried, not least of which are with the Spicers, certainly not of the blood of the First Men.

While some regard is given to "The Blood of the First Men" in the North, I don't recall its dilution with the marriage to Catelyn Tully ever being mentioned. Not significantly.

...

[voodooqueen126]

We are told that the Andals descended on the Kingdoms of the First Men, conquering and carving out the 7 Kingdoms (a seemingly Andal construct).

However the Storm Kings and the Gardner Kings were First Men. They were the Lords of two of the Seven Kingdoms, and those of their blood continued to reign over what we are told were Andal conquests right up until the Targaryen conquest. If if there was some intermarriage They were still of the blood of the First Men, as much as the Starks who are said to have resisted the Andals.

Could someone clear up this discrepancy for me?

This seems very interesting, also weren't the Mudds mentioned in Brienne's chapter also First Men too? But they intermarried with the Andals. Perhaps the Gardiners and the Storm Kings were the same.

[idreamofpikas]

Does anyone know if the Conningtons are first men? The Arryns defeated the Griffin Kings to win the Vale is it possible that the Conningtosn were forced to move to the Stormlands afterwards(like the Manderlays).

[voodooqueen126]

Does anyone know if the Conningtons are first men? The Arryns defeated the Griffin Kings to win the Vale is it possible that the Conningtosn were forced to move to the Stormlands afterwards(like the Manderlays).

They have red hair, which seems to be a very Andal trait, so I would say no...

They probably just picked up the griffin as a symbol.

[idreamofpikas]

They have red hair, which seems to be a very Andal trait, so I would say no...

They probably just picked up the griffin as a symbol.

Ygritte and all the other Wildlings touched by fire suggest that its just as much a First man trait as it is an Andal.

[voodooqueen126]

Ygritte and all the other Wildlings touched by fire suggest that its just as much a First man trait as it is an Andal.

It's noted as being an extremely rare trait in the Wildlings.

Remember that the Night Watch (which would be full of Andal Criminals) must have had plenty of escapees over the years.

[Dragonfish]

The First men didnt have seven kingdoms, that is an Andal construct.

There were many kingdoms amoungst eht first men, even in the north.

No, the Seven Kingdoms were there before the Andals came. From the last Bran chapter in AGOT:

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all though the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea...The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure."

Does anyone know if the Conningtons are first men? The Arryns defeated the Griffin Kings to win the Vale is it possible that the Conningtosn were forced to move to the Stormlands afterwards(like the Manderlays).

First Men families tend to have short, descriptive names--Stark, Flint, Tallhart, etc. Andal families tend to have names that are...well, different--Lannister, Manderly, Arryn, etc. The name "Connington" seems to fall into the latter group, so I'd wager they're an Andal family.

[idreamofpikas]

First Men families tend to have short, descriptive names--Stark, Flint, Tallhart, etc. Andal families tend to have names that are...well, different--Lannister, Manderly, Arryn, etc. The name "Connington" seems to fall into the latter group, so I'd wager they're an Andal family.

While I concede the Conningtons are probably an Andal family I dont think the name can be seen as clear evidence. Connington isnt that different to First men families such as Overton, Condon, Mollen, Dustin Cerwyn and Bolton. Plus over thousands of years they may have altered their name or like the Greystarks/Kartarks added to their original name,

[Free Northman]

No, the Seven Kingdoms were there before the Andals came. From the last Bran chapter in AGOT:

"So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all though the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea...The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure."

First Men families tend to have short, descriptive names--Stark, Flint, Tallhart, etc. Andal families tend to have names that are...well, different--Lannister, Manderly, Arryn, etc. The name "Connington" seems to fall into the latter group, so I'd wager they're an Andal family.

I think that is slightly misleading. Most probably the birth of the Seven Kingdoms refers to the foundation of each of the Seven Great Houses. I don't think it means that all other lesser "kingdoms" were eradicated at that time.

Looking at the lineage of Stark Kings, the Marsh King - Ruler of the Neck - only bowed to Winterfell AFTER the Manderleys were granted White Harbor. And we know this happened about 1000 years ago.

The Andals, in turn, came much earlier than that, if the histories are correct.

So I think by the time the Andals came - apparantly between 2000 and 6000 years ago, depending on which Maester's timeline you believe - the Seven great kingdoms were firmly established, and clearly the most dominant forces in Westeros. But lesser kings like the Marsh King, and the Boltons still remained until as recently as 1000 years ago.

[GreenHand]

OK, interesting. On the actions of a former Stark towards Andals...

Jhogo, Jorah the Andal, to each of you I say, choose any horse you wish from my herds, and

it is yours.

"The Andal" was what the Dothraki called Ser Jorah.

I find this strange.

Does this mean that House Mormont is also an Andal house? I always thought that aside from White Harbour The North was made up entirely of Houses decended from the First Men since the North was never successfully taken by Andals.

We know that in relatively recent times the Andal house of Manderly fleeing from the Reach was granted a seat in the North. Was this gifting similarly done to bring another Andal House into the fold of the North, gifting them bear island. It is said that Bear Island was one by a Rodrik Stark (when did he reign?) in a wrestling match (presumably in from the Iron Men) and presumabley while the Starks were Kings, not Wardens.

We know that during the Andal invasions of Westeros which the North resisted, the Iron Islands subsumed the Andals. Wasn't House Hoare, that ruled the Iron Born until the Targaryen conquests, an Andal house. Rodrik the reader tells us that "House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came.” So was bear Island given to an Iron Born Andal House that had now sworn fealty to him? It seems unlikely but where else would an Andal house come from?

The North has largely kept to itself in Westeros History it seems to me. And it's clear that the Mormonts consider themselves to be thoroughly Northmen.

Any comment anyone?

[idreamofpikas]

Any comment anyone?

Its possible that the Dothraki are not aware of the different races in Westeros and presume them all to be the same. The Andals are the most prominent and probaly do the most trade with the rest of the world so everyone from Westeros gets labelled Andal. I have Scottish friends who are disgusted whenever people call them English and most of the Greeks I know get pissed off when people confuse current Macedonia with classical Alexander Macedonia.

[Dragonfish]

I think that is slightly misleading. Most probably the birth of the Seven Kingdoms refers to the foundation of each of the Seven Great Houses. I don't think it means that all other lesser "kingdoms" were eradicated at that time.

I wouldn't say that Maester Luwin is referring to the foundation of the "Seven Great Houses" (partly because a few of the Great Houses weren't even Great Houses until Aegon's Conquest), but I would agree that he is glossing over the existence of a few small kingdoms for the sake of conciseness.

[Free Northman]

Correction.

Discussion on another thread prompted me to do a more thorough study of Stark history, and I discovered that the Marsh Kingdom became part of the North much earlier than I first thought.

The Marsh King was vanquished by the son of Jon Stark, who built the castle at White Harbor. But this castle was built thousands of years before the Manderleys settled in White Harbor. Based on an analysis of the timeline given to Davos by Ser Bartimus in the Wolf's Den, it would appear that the Marsh Kingdom was absorbed into the North about 4000 years ago or more.

[mor2]

to bad there is no mention, which stark was in power at that time.