Jump to content

Elia & Rhaegar


Stubby

Recommended Posts

It is entirely logical for a man whose sister has been kidnapped to be really upset about it and to make threats to the man who did it. Any person, including a king, would have understood why Brandon was upset - his reaction was entirely appropriate under the circumstances. Unfortunately Aerys was mad so he fried Brandon. This is entirely unreasonable and unexpected and inappropriate to the situation. Neither Brandon nor Rhaegar could have predicted this outcome.

Wow. Not really. It is logical for a man whose sister has been kidnapped to be angry, sure. But no matter how angry he was, threatening the crown prince is treason. Aerys could have understood *why* Brandon was upset, but he didn't have to care. We're talking absolute monarchy here. Kings throughout history have executed people for less than that.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around here. No one person bears full responsibility and no one is innocent. Probably, a lot of it can be written off to poor communication. Ravens are slow, messengers slower. Until proven otherwise, I'll believe that Brandon, Ned, Robert, and even Aerys did not know what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna. Either because they kept their plans secret, or because a message went astray. Doesn't really matter, I can see a rational reason for them to do either.

R+L (Or just R if he kidnapped her)probably realized that there would be some negative fallout. Hence the hiding. I don't think that they could have anticipated full-scale war. And, indeed, if everyone else had acted reasonably, there wouldn't have been a war. So, anyway, R+L= Bad decision #1.

Brandon makes bad decision #2. He runs off to Kings landing (I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably thought Lyanna was in real danger.) Still, demanding the death of the crown prince is not acceptable behavior.

Even after Brandon's treason, war was still avoidable...if only Aerys hadn't been a complete nutter. A benevolent king would have put Brandon in his place non-lethally. An average king would have had Brandon tried and killed. Unfortunately, Aerys kills Brandon and Rickon and then demands the deaths of Ned and Robert. His desire to kill a whole bunch of important noblemen is what really starts the war. No matter what Robert liked to think he was fighting for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Not really. It is logical for a man whose sister has been kidnapped to be angry, sure. But no matter how angry he was, threatening the crown prince is treason. Aerys could have understood *why* Brandon was upset, but he didn't have to care. We're talking absolute monarchy here. Kings throughout history have executed people for less than that.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around here. No one person bears full responsibility and no one is innocent. Probably, a lot of it can be written off to poor communication. Ravens are slow, messengers slower. Until proven otherwise, I'll believe that Brandon, Ned, Robert, and even Aerys did not know what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna. Either because they kept their plans secret, or because a message went astray. Doesn't really matter, I can see a rational reason for them to do either.

R+L (Or just R if he kidnapped her)probably realized that there would be some negative fallout. Hence the hiding. I don't think that they could have anticipated full-scale war. And, indeed, if everyone else had acted reasonably, there wouldn't have been a war. So, anyway, R+L= Bad decision #1.

Brandon makes bad decision #2. He runs off to Kings landing (I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably thought Lyanna was in real danger.) Still, demanding the death of the crown prince is not acceptable behavior.

Even after Brandon's treason, war was still avoidable...if only Aerys hadn't been a complete nutter. A benevolent king would have put Brandon in his place non-lethally. An average king would have had Brandon tried and killed. Unfortunately, Aerys kills Brandon and Rickon and then demands the deaths of Ned and Robert. His desire to kill a whole bunch of important noblemen is what really starts the war. No matter what Robert liked to think he was fighting for.

:agree: and actually have nothing much to add, as I think this is pretty much an accurate summary of what happened.

A lot of bad judgment was shown by all in this situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Not really. It is logical for a man whose sister has been kidnapped to be angry, sure. But no matter how angry he was, threatening the crown prince is treason. Aerys could have understood *why* Brandon was upset, but he didn't have to care. We're talking absolute monarchy here. Kings throughout history have executed people for less than that.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around here. No one person bears full responsibility and no one is innocent. Probably, a lot of it can be written off to poor communication. Ravens are slow, messengers slower. Until proven otherwise, I'll believe that Brandon, Ned, Robert, and even Aerys did not know what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna. Either because they kept their plans secret, or because a message went astray. Doesn't really matter, I can see a rational reason for them to do either.

R+L (Or just R if he kidnapped her)probably realized that there would be some negative fallout. Hence the hiding. I don't think that they could have anticipated full-scale war. And, indeed, if everyone else had acted reasonably, there wouldn't have been a war. So, anyway, R+L= Bad decision #1.

Brandon makes bad decision #2. He runs off to Kings landing (I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt and say he probably thought Lyanna was in real danger.) Still, demanding the death of the crown prince is not acceptable behavior.

Even after Brandon's treason, war was still avoidable...if only Aerys hadn't been a complete nutter. A benevolent king would have put Brandon in his place non-lethally. An average king would have had Brandon tried and killed. Unfortunately, Aerys kills Brandon and Rickon and then demands the deaths of Ned and Robert. His desire to kill a whole bunch of important noblemen is what really starts the war. No matter what Robert liked to think he was fighting for.

Great post. I think that most kings in Aerys place would have send Brandon to the Night's Watch, forgiving most of the people that went with him.

However, Rhaegar probably didn't think Aerys would do what he did, but he had to know his father wasn't fully sane. In fact, if Varys was right, he didn't and the tournament of Harrental was a form of preparing to take over the throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would Brandon go nuts and commit treason if he thought his sister wanted to be with Rhaegar? There is no evidence that he was erratic, insane, suicidal, or senselessly violent before this event. All recollections of him seem to be fond. The level of his distress seems to indicate that he was extremely concerned with Lyanna's safety. The Blackfish (I think) calls Brandon "a gallant fool" for going off to save Lyanna. Would he be described as gallant if he was trying to stop Lyanna from doing something she wanted to do? Would he throw his life away just to cock block his sister? If Ned knew, Robert would know, as they were together in the Vale when it all went down, and Robert seemingly did not have any idea that Lyanna went with Rhaegar consensually. Ned figured it out later, but there is zero evidence that they knew before the war, and some decent evidence that they didn't.

ETA: Do you have a text-based reason why Brandon would have reacted with such fury at Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar if he thought it was consensual?

quoted from this post

Why did Brandon (aka the “Wild Wolf”) act rashly? Well there are two parts to that answer, I believe. He was angry for the same reason the Freys were angry with Robb, for the same reason Tywin was angry with Tyrion when he marries without his consent, for the same reason Hoster Tully doesn’t talk to his brother for years. Do you need text citations to show these are “text-based reasons"? Because custom dictates children marry whomever the Lord dictates they wed, not whom they wish to wed. I believe Lyanna chose to refuse to do her “duty” to her family and left with the Crown Prince. This not only is an outrage on Lyanna’s part but it is also is an outrage by the royal family in the person of Rhaegar to interfere in the rights of a major house to form the marriage alliances they wish to join in. From the same perspective as Hoster, Tywin, and Walder, Lord Rickard and his heir Brandon have every right to be livid with Lyanna and with Rhaegar. Brandon just reacts to it in his own way. He doesn’t end communication. He doesn’t force his sister into some insidious and degrading sexual assault. And he doesn’t plot to kill either Rhaegar or Lyanna in some sneaky ambush over dinner. No, Brandon is the Wild Wolf because he believes a “bloody sword is a beautiful thing.” Or to put it another way, a death in combat is a honorable and decisive way to settle things. Brandon thinks Rhaegar should be willingly to “come out and die” in honorable combat that will settle the stain on Stark honor and the lack of respect given to the Stark’s pledged word and rights.

Is it stupid and rash? Yes, I think so (as Hoster Tully - not the Blackfish - thought as well,) but it doesn’t mean Brandon believes his sister was kidnapped. As has been pointed out before, he doesn’t call out for his sister to be released. He calls out for Rhaegar to come out and die (another text-based reference.) He primary concern is for a fight to restore Stark honor, not for the concern of his sister’s safety.

Add into this any plans that Lord Rickard had for his “southron ambitions” (another text based reference) and you have all the fuel for Stark anger that one needs - even if, as I think is true, all the Starks knew from the beginning that Lyanna left willingly. Lord Rickard certainly seems to have been building a power bloc of great houses that no king could not take note of, or ignore. If Rickard wanted this alliance to rival or challenge Targaryen supremacy then Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s action put this in danger. So, from a political perspective, there is no need for a concern for Lyanna’s safety to be the motivating factor for Brandon to do what he did. He had plenty of reason to do so without that at all. In fact, I think it shows a mistaken modern view to reduce his actions to just a concern over his sister’s safety. We have plenty of context from the world Martin has given us to suggest otherwise.

Look, to the point of whether or not the brothers knew, it makes no sense, if a romance was started at Harrenhal between Lyanna and Rhaegar, that the brothers would be totally ignorant. We know from Meera Reed’s account of the Knight of the Laughing Tree (another text based reference) that Lyanna was moved by Rhaegar’s singing. We know that Rhaegar presented her with the crown of love and beauty. Both of these things are known to the brothers as well. I think the fact Lyanna dies holding on to blue roses, perhaps even the same roses Rhaegar gave her at the tourney, shows there was a romance, and for the brothers to be totally ignorant of what is going around them seems unlikely at best. Especially Ned, who Lyanna talks to about her doubts about Robert (another text-based reference.) Obviously Lord Rickard would get reports on the happenings at the tourney from Brandon and others, so he could not be totally ignorant either.

My point is just this, we are given many reasons that can explain Brandon’s actions, so it is not “apparent” that he acted out of outrage from his sister being kidnapped. Perhaps that was the reason, but it doesn’t take a lot of digging into what Martin has given us to come up with what I think are convincing reasons for him to have acted the way he did while knowing full well his sister went with Rhaegar willingly.

I have a question for you as well. What makes you think the Starks are immune from the cultural attitude towards arranged marriages vs. marrying for love? What makes you think that if Rickard and Brandon, and possibly Ned as well, knew Lyanna loved Rhaegar and didn't want to marry Robert -both of which are supported by text-based references - would they then set aside their pledged word to Robert and tell Lyanna it was all ok? I don't see anything about Rickard and Brandon that points to them doing so. Is is just the attitude that the "good guys" would support Lyanna's wishes? I don't get the idea that they would put love over honor. That's not the Starks I've read about. Now, Ned is another case. I think he does do just that, but it is at his sister's deathbed and after a split with Robert over killing innocent children. Perhaps if Benjen ever shows up again we may learn the truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, to the point of whether or not the brothers knew, it makes no sense, if a romance was started at Harrenhal between Lyanna and Rhaegar, that the brothers would be totally ignorant. We know from Meera Reed’s account of the Knight of the Laughing Tree (another text based reference) that Lyanna was moved by Rhaegar’s singing. We know that Rhaegar presented her with the crown of love and beauty. Both of these things are known to the brothers as well. I think the fact Lyanna dies holding on to blue roses, perhaps even the same roses Rhaegar gave her at the tourney, shows there was a romance, and for the brothers to be totally ignorant of what is going around them seems unlikely at best. Especially Ned, who Lyanna talks to about her doubts about Robert (another text-based reference.) Obviously Lord Rickard would get reports on the happenings at the tourney from Brandon and others, so he could not be totally ignorant either.

All that the actions at the tourney suggest was that Lyanna had a little crush on Rhaegar like girls today have crushes on movie stars and rock stars. That doesn't mean that all teen girls crushing on stars want to have sex with the A-lister that they admire from afar. The girl could easily get herself into a date rape situation. From Brandon's perspective, it is just as likely that his little sister, who like many girls in Westros, was starstruck by Rhaegar the rock star, was lured into a situation because of her crush, and ended up getting kidnapped as it is that she ran off with him willingly.

Additionally, just because Brandon was a bit of a player with women, that doesn't mean that he wants his sister to be used in the same way. There's a reason why many a parent tell their teen boys to treat their dates as they would want someone to treat their sister. Sometimes, teen boys needed to be reminded about this.

I'm willing to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt on this. He was a player and rash, but nothing suggests that he saw his sister as little more than chattel. I think that he did think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (perhaps Iago Littlefinger gave him that idea) or at the very least he thought that a much older, married man was taking advantage of his naive teenaged sister.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh, maybe you're right. Maybe I gave Brandon too much credit. It seems excessively foolish to do something so extreme over a consensual elopement. I would think, if it were just that, he would have gone through more proper channels to handle it. He couldn't have thought that his challenge would have gone over well, nor that he was likely to win even if he was granted a duel, considering Rhaegar's considerable prowess. The only motivation that I thought was likely was that he was concerned over her safety, but I could be wrong. But one thing is clear: he WAS outraged, and the word went out to everyone that it was a kidnapping. She was taken at sword point (also textual evidence) which lent credence to this. I think it's more likely that Brandon thought it was kidnapping, but we'll have to wait and see who's right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh, maybe you're right. Maybe I gave Brandon too much credit. It seems excessively foolish to do something so extreme over a consensual elopement. I would think, if it were just that, he would have gone through more proper channels to handle it. He couldn't have thought that his challenge would have gone over well, nor that he was likely to win even if he was granted a duel, considering Rhaegar's considerable prowess. The only motivation that I thought was likely was that he was concerned over her safety, but I could be wrong. But one thing is clear: he WAS outraged, and the word went out to everyone that it was a kidnapping. She was taken at sword point (also textual evidence) which lent credence to this. I think it's more likely that Brandon thought it was kidnapping, but we'll have to wait and see who's right.

IRL, overprotective brothers can have rash reactions to their sisters running off with guys they don't approve of. They might even try to go beat the guy up, thinking that he's been a bad influence. Perhaps Brandon felt the same way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

nor that he was likely to win even if he was granted a duel, considering Rhaegar's considerable prowess.

Brandon was considered one of the best swordsman of his time. Once GRRM described that while Ned was one of the best military strategists, Brandon was one of the best swordsman. He would have been a match for Rhaegar.

I think all facts show up and Brandon and everyone else thought that Lyanna was kidnapped, there are many circumstantial evidences for us in the books pointing otherwise but not that much for the characters at that time (when everything was happening)..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IRL, overprotective brothers can have rash reactions to their sisters running off with guys they don't approve of. They might even try to go beat the guy up, thinking that he's been a bad influence. Perhaps Brandon felt the same way?

He may have felt the same way, but would he have behaved in SUCH a rash manner? Is there any precedent for anyone challenging a crown prince to a single duel and being granted it? Is there any reason to think he wouldn't have been punished and received no satisfaction for the way he went about it?

Brandon was considered one of the best swordsman of his time. Once GRRM described that while Ned was one of the best military strategists, Brandon was one of the best swordsman. He would have been a match for Rhaegar.

Do you remember where it said that? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't remember reading that. Rhaegar is a great jouster, but I guess Robert was better hand to hand...

I think all facts show up and Brandon and everyone else thought that Lyanna was kidnapped, there are many circumstantial evidences for us in the books pointing otherwise but not that much for the characters at that time (when everything was happening)..

We just don't have enough info and are forced to make inferences. The level of rashness certainly suggests to me that Brandon thought some horrible thing was being done to Lyanna, but maybe he was just pissed that they ran off together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He may have felt the same way, but would he have behaved in SUCH a rash manner? Is there any precedent for anyone challenging a crown prince to a single duel and being granted it? Is there any reason to think he wouldn't have been punished and received no satisfaction for the way he went about it?

As I said, IRL an overprotective brother might go beat up the guy his sister's with, and damn the consequences. In Brandon's world, the equivalent of that is challenging someone to a duel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I said, IRL an overprotective brother might go beat up the guy his sister's with, and damn the consequences. In Brandon's world, the equivalent of that is challenging someone to a duel.

Let me put it you this way: if it turns out that you and SFDanny are right about Brandon knowing full well it was consensual, I'm going to be forced to think he was kind of an idiot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me put it you this way: if it turns out that you and SFDanny are right about Brandon knowing full well it was consensual, I'm going to be forced to think he was kind of an idiot.

Would he be any less of an idiot if it turns out he believed his sister was kidnapped? Committing treason in the capital is generally not the best way to remedy such situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would he be any less of an idiot if it turns out he believed his sister was kidnapped? Committing treason in the capital is generally not the best way to remedy such situations.

I can understand doing something totally crazy if you thought a guy was raping your sister and holding her captive, though it was still unlikely to produce the desired result. I would say I could sympathize more and would think maybe he was truly unhinged by the thought of Rhaegar harming his sister. I would think he was just an impulsive idiot if he did it b/c his sister defied their family and undid his father's ambitions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even after Brandon's treason, war was still avoidable...if only Aerys hadn't been a complete nutter. A benevolent king would have put Brandon in his place non-lethally. An average king would have had Brandon tried and killed. Unfortunately, Aerys kills Brandon and Rickon and then demands the deaths of Ned and Robert. His desire to kill a whole bunch of important noblemen is what really starts the war. No matter what Robert liked to think he was fighting for.

This is a point that a lot of people who want to blame Brandon or Rhaegar or Rhaegar/Lyanna seem to overlook. The war was entirely avoidable if it had not been for the deaths of Lord Rickon and IIRC all the other fathers who answered the summons for their sons crimes. The calls for Ned and Robert's heads were just icing but showed the extent of Aerys' crazy. Brandon didn't go to KL alone and I believe all of his companions and their fathers were killed. Arguably there were legit reasons to kill Brandon and his friends (extremely cruel reasons but it could be justified in a monarchy setting for precisely the reasons you pointed out), but killing the lords was totally unreasonable and I think at that point even if Aerys hadn't asked for Ned and Robert's heads the war would have been on. No lord is really going to sit for a king that will kill him and wipe out his family for no reason, which is functionally what Aerys did. For that reason even though I'm not sure he was sane enough to be culpable as we understand it, I blame Aerys for the war.

As I write this I'm also forced to ask why Aerys wanted Robert dead, was it because of the Lyanna connection? Ned dead sort of makes sense if one accepts that Aerys in his crazy mind saw Brandon showing up in KL as annoucing the Stark's intention to rebel, but as Robert was already Lord of Storm's End it wasn't like he had a father or brother whose "crimes" he had to answer for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can understand doing something totally crazy if you thought a guy was raping your sister and holding her captive, though it was still unlikely to produce the desired result. I would say I could sympathize more and would think maybe he was truly unhinged by the thought of Rhaegar harming his sister. I would think he was just an impulsive idiot if he did it b/c his sister defied their family and undid his father's ambitions.

I have no trouble believing him an impulsive idiot!

He's described as wild, a hothead, crude, with something of a mean streak.

If he ever did anything generous or kind, I've yet to hear about it.

(I think Catelyn dodged a bullet when Brandon was killed).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no trouble believing him an impulsive idiot!

He's described as wild, a hothead, crude, with something of a mean streak.

If he ever did anything generous or kind, I've yet to hear about it.

(I think Catelyn dodged a bullet when Brandon was killed).

Just because Lady Dustin says something is true doesn't mean that it is. She was willing to defile Ned's bones over a perceived slight and allow Jeyne to be raped and abused by Ramsay.

I do think that Brandon was a player, but I don't think that he was any worse than Robert or Theon. I'm assuming that Barbrey Ryswell slept with Brandon solely because she thought that it put her at the head of the Lady Stark sweepstakes. She thought that by jumping in bed with Brandon, Brandon would marry her. (Unfortunately for her, Brandon is less honorable and more practical than Robb). I think that Brandon is a whore, but that doesn't mean that he has some good qualities. He could be a manwhore who loved his sister.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While its true that Brandon could not have been granted what he wanted (a duel with Rhaegar to the death) I think most kings would have punished rhaegar in some way and forced him to return Lyanna to her family maybe in exchange for Brandon taking the black. The fact that the Mad King went apeshit and refused to acknowledge any guilt on the Targ side is the reason why he was justly overthrown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is Brandon Stark would probably have been executed if he lived in the Middle Ages and said what he said about a prince. He threatened the prince's life. That is a crime and he should have been punished for it. The way Aerys did it was wrong but there's no way anybody should be able to waltz into King's Landing and threaten the crown. If Aerys let him walk his whole reign would have been cheapened. His enemies would view him as a coward - as weak. His actions brought on a war anyway but what he did showed that any way against him would be brutal and bitter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is Brandon Stark would probably have been executed if he lived in the Middle Ages and said what he said about a prince. He threatened the prince's life. That is a crime and he should have been punished for it. The way Aerys did it was wrong but there's no way anybody should be able to waltz into King's Landing and threaten the crown. If Aerys let him walk his whole reign would have been cheapened. His enemies would view him as a coward - as weak. His actions brought on a war anyway but what he did showed that any way against him would be brutal and bitter.

Its true that Brandon would have had to be punished, but this isn't an absolute monarchy. The Targs are feudal kings not post-renaissance kings. They rely solely on the loyalty of the great lords and executing an heir with a legitimate gripe without even addressing the gripe is a sure way to get shortened a head and replaced (which is kind of what happens.) Its important to punish Brandon (the Wall most likely) but he also needs to punish Rhaegar and most of all return Lyanna. Otherwise he'd have one of the most powerful lords angry with him and a bunch of other lords wondering if the same could happen to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...