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Elia & Rhaegar


Stubby

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While its true that Brandon could not have been granted what he wanted (a duel with Rhaegar to the death) I think most kings would have punished rhaegar in some way and forced him to return Lyanna to her family maybe in exchange for Brandon taking the black. The fact that the Mad King went apeshit and refused to acknowledge any guilt on the Targ side is the reason why he was justly overthrown.

Keep in mind that Brandon had no control over who his bride was going to be. That was Lord Rickard's decision alone. It's entirely possible that he did love Barbrey Ryswell and may have wanted to marry her. We have nothing other than Lady Barbrey's story, so it's hard to know the truth of the matter.

I'm not sure why a lot of people in the thread have decided that Brandon deserved execution or consignment to the Wall for what he did. No, it wasn't the most prudent of moves, but there wasn't any actual crime committed by Brandon. He thought his sister had been kidnapped, rode to court with his friends, and demanded that King Aerys produce Rhaegar for a duel.

At that point, any good or even decent king would've tried to diffuse the issue and win Brandon (and the Starks) to his side by admitting that he wasn't sure what was going on, but that it was in the interest of both houses and the realm to get to the bottom of it. But Aerys wasn't a good king, and by that time, he wasn't even a decent one.

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I have to say I haven't been fully convinced of Ran's "Brandon is a douche" theory as of yet. It is yours isn't it, Ran? Anyway, I have to say this in Brandon's defense, regardless of how idiotic his action was he did have precedent. We all know of an incident in which four princes of the blood fought in trial by combat and one of them died. Why Brandon would confuse Mad Aerys with Baelor Breakspear and Rhaegar with Aerion is beyond me, but Brandon at least has that example to hold up when he demands Rhaegar comes out and die. Now, it may be that he had good reason to believe Rhaegar would respond to the challenge in a very different way than his father, but Rhaegar wasn't there to respond in any fashion. Big mistake. Very rash. And most likely plain stupid, but he may have had some reason to believe it would have gone another way.

One other point. I don't think there is need to assume that if Brandon knew his sister went willingly, that therefore his actions meant he viewed his sister as so much "chattel." I have no reason to believe Brandon didn't love Lyanna, and care about her happiness. I just think that it is the common view of Martin's world that such concerns were secondary, and I think Rickard and Brandon, at least, held to this view. It is the rare exception that people are allowed to marry for love. After all, Brandon is to marry a woman he evidently didn't love as part of his family duty, why wouldn't he think it was right that his sister marry Robert regardless of her feeling toward him or towards Rhaegar? Add to this what looks to be a move on the Stark's part to challenge the Targaryens by these marriage alliances and I think you have a combustable situation.

Lastly, and I know I said "one other point" earlier, but one more on top of that as well, I don't think Aerys's action was as stupid as some are making it out to be. Aerys was mad and paranoid, but it looks to me that it wasn't all paranoia. His response to Brandon's action was outrageous in the same way Tywin's was at Castamere or his own was earlier at Duskendale. But from a viewpoint of eliminating your enemies, I think Aerys seized upon an opportunity Brandon handed to him to get rid of the core of the power bloc forming against Targaryen rule. If he had succeeded in killing Ned and Robert, he would have put down any thoughts of challenging the Targaryens for a very long time. Ruthless, but very effective - if he got all the people he tried to kill. Trouble for him was he didn't get them all.

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How well known was it that Aerys was bugfuck insane? Didn't he have long Howard Hughes fingernails and hair because he was too paranoid of blades to have them cut? Should Brandon have realized this, or did he really think that Aerys was going to just let him and Rhaegar duke it out?

Also, does "southron ambitions" really mean, "planning to challenge the Targaryens"? Maybe what Rickard was angling for was a marriage into the royal family eventually. I feel like the evidence is thin on the ground that he was plotting a wholesale coup.

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My question is, how is it that Brandon (and the rest of Westeros, for that matter) discovered that Lyanna went with/was abducted by Rhaegar? Who spilled the beans?

It always baffled me that someone as intelligent as Rhaegar was described would leave evidence that Lyanna was with him, especially knowing what everyone's reaction would be. What gave the Starks reason to immediately assume it was Rhaegar who took Lyanna?

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My question is, how is it that Brandon (and the rest of Westeros, for that matter) discovered that Lyanna went with/was abducted by Rhaegar? Who spilled the beans?

It always baffled me that someone as intelligent as Rhaegar was described would leave evidence that Lyanna was with him, especially knowing what everyone's reaction would be. What gave the Starks reason to immediately assume it was Rhaegar who took Lyanna?

According to Dany's recollection, Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint. Presumably there were other people around to see this.

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According to Dany's recollection, Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint. Presumably there were other people around to see this.

According to what Dany was told by Viserys you mean. Neither an eye witness nor a reliable source.

'Swordpoint' was probably the "official" story post-war. It was what Robert wanted to believe anyway.

Viserys could easily be parroting that official post-war story - he was very young at the time (7? 9?).

The simple answer was that we don't know how Brandon was informed.

If R+L sent a message (something like "I'm going off to marry Rhaegar daddy. We'll be hiding out for a while so you can't try anything stupid. I know you wanted me to marry that boor Robert Baratheon, but look on the bright side - your grandchildren will be in line for the throne. Love Lyanna") it would have been sent to Winterfell presumeably, though possibly also to Riverrun where much of the Stark clan was due to gather for Brandon's wedding.

That is one way he could know.

Possibly someone saw an actual abduction, or what looked like one, fairly close by and reported (or mis-reported) it to Riverrun as the major local authority.

Possibly a message was sent by hand (Riverrun might be the best place to send a raven to winterfell from).

My favourite theory (not mine originally, and totally speculative) is that R+L encountered young Littlefinger, recently recovered from his duel with Brandon, and sent him back to Riverrun with a verbal message. Young Littlefinger spots an opportunity for revenge against Brandon and falsifies a kidnapping story instead of passing on the message. Brandon does his nut, and Littlefinger delights in how effective a random bit of chaos sowing is, all the more as the Targaryen dynasty is toppled in addition to Brandon dying a horrible death and the Stark family being torn apart, all from one little lie.

But we don't actually know how Brandon found out at this stage.

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Scenario 1 still sounds terrible to me.

Lyanna would either be made into a mistress or as a second wife. Rickard planned to have his daughter as a first and only wife for the Starks aren't into polygamy. It also would make the Starks look bad for breaking the engagement with Robert Baratheon.

Also, Targs are incestuous so they possibly could plan to intermarry Lyanna's heirs. The Starks seem like the most uptight house to me so I don't see them being okay with that either.

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Lyanna would either be made into a mistress or as a second wife. Rickard planned to have his daughter as a first and only wife for the Starks aren't into polygamy. It also would make the Starks look bad for breaking the engagement with Robert Baratheon.

But what if Lyanna wasn't made into a second wife? What if she was intended to be Rhaegar's only legal wife?

(Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was supposedly invalid because he'd made a precontract to another lady that was never dissolved.

What if that is also the case with Rhaegar?

Maybe his marriage to Elia was set aside as invalid, or something of that nature).

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According to what Dany was told by Viserys you mean. Neither an eye witness nor a reliable source.

'Swordpoint' was probably the "official" story post-war. It was what Robert wanted to believe anyway.

Viserys could easily be parroting that official post-war story - he was very young at the time (7? 9?).

I think it's very likely that Viserys was told the Targ version of the story, not Robert's.

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But what if Lyanna wasn't made into a second wife? What if she was intended to be Rhaegar's only legal wife?

(Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was supposedly invalid because he'd made a precontract to another lady that was never dissolved.

What if that is also the case with Rhaegar?

Maybe his marriage to Elia was set aside as invalid, or something of that nature).

I suppose it's not impossible but we have no indication that this is what happened. I don't see the point of running off with Lyanna as opposed to formally asking Lord Rickard if he can marry his daughter if this were the case.

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I think all the Brandon bashing is to make Rhaegar's actions less rash and insulting. From all we know, Rhaegar abducted a girl who was betrothed to another Lord and hid with her while his father killed the girl's brother and asked for the heads of the girl's brother and fiancé. Even if Lyanna did love Rhaegar, nothing can excuse his actions. I don't blame Brandon for reacting the way he did, Rhaegar acted like a tyrant from what we know. He, himself was betrothed to a girl he didn't love and any rupture between Lyanna and Robert's betrothal would taint the word of the Starks.

He went to King's Landing and asked for Rhaegar to be tried by combat. I don't see anything wrong with that considering what Rhaegar did. Instead of justice,he breaks his neck trying to help his father who is cooked in his armor. The Targaryens, seriously, acted like fools on that matter and brought the sacking of King's Landing on themselves.

From all we know about the southron ambitions of Lord Rickard, we cannot conclude that he tried to depose Aerys or secede from the 7 Kingdoms.

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Cut the man some slack, what he did was totally selfless. Rhaegar knew that the Prince Who Was Promised would come from his father's line provided he married Rhaegar's mother (I forget her name) due to a prophecy given by to some woods witch.

Since he saw himself as the Prince Who Was Promised, Rhaegar knew he had a duty to more than himself or any aspect of his own personal life including his marriage - he had a duty to the realm itself. That duty required him to provide three heads for the dragon, three heirs, something Elia alone was not capable of.

More lives and bloodshed would be spilled during the Others' attack than Robert's Rebellion. Now, we know Rhaegar was not the Prince but there is a high chance that he is the father of the Prince - there are, after all, two possible candidates for the Prince amongst his children.

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I'm not sure why a lot of people in the thread have decided that Brandon deserved execution or consignment to the Wall for what he did. No, it wasn't the most prudent of moves, but there wasn't any actual crime committed by Brandon. He thought his sister had been kidnapped, rode to court with his friends, and demanded that King Aerys produce Rhaegar for a duel.

Brandon most certainly committed a crime. He threatened the prince which would constitute as treason. Given the standard of justice for the day under Aerys, and our own Middle Ages, I'd say he would have definitely been tortured and most likely killed. If Aerys did nothing it would make him look weak in front of the other lords, it would cheapen his crown. If he acted, well, he'd get a few people mad too.

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Cut the man some slack, what he did was totally selfless. Rhaegar knew that the Prince Who Was Promised would come from his father's line provided he married Rhaegar's mother (I forget her name) due to a prophecy given by to some woods witch.

Since he saw himself as the Prince Who Was Promised, Rhaegar knew he had a duty to more than himself or any aspect of his own personal life including his marriage - he had a duty to the realm itself. That duty required him to provide three heads for the dragon, three heirs, something Elia alone was not capable of.

More lives and bloodshed would be spilled during the Others' attack than Robert's Rebellion. Now, we know Rhaegar was not the Prince but there is a high chance that he is the father of the Prince - there are, after all, two possible candidates for the Prince amongst his children.

Rhaegar knew but did others like Brandon Stark or Lord Rickard knew it? He needed a "Visenya" but did he have to kidnap a girl who was already betrothed? Why couldn't he kidnap some Tyrell or Frey girl? Why was he still hiding when war was brewing? Why didn't he intervene when Brandon Stark was murdered with Lord Rickard? And the PWWP could have been Viserys or one of Viserys's kid since they were descendant of Aerys and Queen Rhaella? It's Rhaegar's inaction, even indifference, to how people would react and to the actions done by his father that bother me?

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It may have been in part selfless butit's also clear that he had some feelings for Lyanna. Hence crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty in front of everyone, and Barristan Selmy counts R+L as foolish things done for love, so there you go. The dovetailing of the prophesy and his personal proclivities seems... all too convenient? And his lack of communication seems odd too. I don't buy that everyone, including Viserys, is just spouting the Robert Baratheon Party Line on how it all went down. I believe R did take L at sword point. If the Starks knew that Lyanna went willingly, Rhaegar sure didn't make a great case to them about why it was necessary, not offer the proper mollification to convince them and Robert to go along with it. The whole thing is wonky.

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It may have been in part selfless butit's also clear that he had some feelings for Lyanna. Hence crowning her Queen of Love and Beauty in front of everyone, and Barristan Selmy counts R+L as foolish things done for love, so there you go. The dovetailing of the prophesy and his personal proclivities seems... all too convenient? And his lack of communication seems odd too. I don't buy that everyone, including Viserys, is just spouting the Robert Baratheon Party Line on how it all went down. I believe R did take L at sword point. If the Starks knew that Lyanna went willingly, Rhaegar sure didn't make a great case to them about why it was necessary, not offer the proper mollification to convince them and Robert to go along with it. The whole thing is wonky.

I think that the reason Rhaegar loved her and the reason he wanted her to be the mother of a head-of-the-dragon are the same...she was pretty amazing for a woman of her time. That whole KotLT thing (I'm assuming that it was her. Opinions differ). Obviously, a warrior princess would make a great mother for a head. That's what made him notice her, drew him to her, showed him she was worthy of respect. From there, it's easy to imagine him falling in love with her.

As for the lack of communication, I think there are a few possible explanations. Maybe they were just thinking, let's go somewhere safe and then tell everyone. Maybe there were other people in on the secret who couldn't sway Brandon from his course, or who just handled the situation poorly. (Lyanna seemed close to Benjen, and he's conveniently missing from the story.) Given the speed of movement and communication in Winterfell, it's possible that information just didn't move quickly enough.

Imagine a message had been sent to the Starks, but Brandon had already taken off for King's Landing. By the time Lyanna and Rhaegar ever got word that he was heading in that direction, he could have already been dead. That is if anyone even knew where they were to alert them.

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One thing I wonder: when exactly did Rhaegar and Lyanna had this "romance"? Every information we have indicate that they met at Harrental, a tournament that didn't last more than a few days or weeks, then they went into opposite directions- King's Landing and Winterfell, and had no way of meeting until she was taken.

Maybe they exchanged a few letters? Even so, sorry, but I don't buy this "they were madly in love" thing. Lyanna might have a crush like Sansa had in the handsome prince, Rhaegar might thought she was a hot younger lady and be very attracted to her, but I don't believe they were living this epic love story some people seem to believe.

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One thing I wonder: when exactly did Rhaegar and Lyanna had this "romance"? Every information we have indicate that they met at Harrental, a tournament that didn't last more than a few days or weeks, then they went into opposite directions- King's Landing and Winterfell, and had no way of meeting until she was taken.

Nothing tells us Lyanna went back to Winterfell.

Brandon didn't. He was still swanning around Riverrun.

Ned was in the Vale with Robert and Jon Arryn when the war started.

It is likely Lyanna stayed in the south, probably around KL or the Stormlands (to make contacts and get to know people ahead of her time as leading Lady Baratheon) or the Riverlands (where preparations were underway for Brandon's impending wedding).

All that distance from Winterfell, you don't travel for a single event. You go for a tour or extended stay. Got to learn all the social minutiae and politics that the North misses out on, especially if you are going to be Lady of a great House.

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I think that the reason Rhaegar loved her and the reason he wanted her to be the mother of a head-of-the-dragon are the same...she was pretty amazing for a woman of her time. That whole KotLT thing (I'm assuming that it was her. Opinions differ). Obviously, a warrior princess would make a great mother for a head. That's what made him notice her, drew him to her, showed him she was worthy of respect. From there, it's easy to imagine him falling in love with her.

As for the lack of communication, I think there are a few possible explanations. Maybe they were just thinking, let's go somewhere safe and then tell everyone. Maybe there were other people in on the secret who couldn't sway Brandon from his course, or who just handled the situation poorly. (Lyanna seemed close to Benjen, and he's conveniently missing from the story.) Given the speed of movement and communication in Winterfell, it's possible that information just didn't move quickly enough.

Imagine a message had been sent to the Starks, but Brandon had already taken off for King's Landing. By the time Lyanna and Rhaegar ever got word that he was heading in that direction, he could have already been dead. That is if anyone even knew where they were to alert them.

Like Asha or Brienne or the Sand Snakes or the Mormont girls. Yes, women fighting is taboo, but still it is done by some women in secret. There is the Ballad of brave Danny Flint, who dressed up like a man to join the Night's Watch. Of course, as Jon points out, the ending of the song was horrible. However, it isn't completely taboo for women to fight or pretend to be men and enter tourneys.

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