Elia & Rhaegar

[SFDanny]

Nothing tells us Lyanna went back to Winterfell.

Maybe. It depends on when you think the conversation takes place between Lyanna and Ned about Robert's infidelities (AGoT 318). That is in Winterfell and it's after Mya Stone is born - which puts it at the earliest in about 280 or 281 (right before or right after the tourney) or it could be later. Unless you know something I don't about the timeline that would pin that event down to before the tourney, it seems possible it takes place after.

[SFDanny]

Can someone find the Rhaegar-took-Lyanna-at-swordpoint quote? I can't find it anywhere D:

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. (ADwD 577 US Hardback edition)

Note that there is no mention of whom the swordpoint was pointed at, or if Lyanna went willingly. A good assumption is that Lyanna was with Stark guards, as would befit her station, and they would object even if Lyanna did not.

[djhdjh]

But what if Lyanna wasn't made into a second wife? What if she was intended to be Rhaegar's only legal wife?

(Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was supposedly invalid because he'd made a precontract to another lady that was never dissolved.

What if that is also the case with Rhaegar?

Maybe his marriage to Elia was set aside as invalid, or something of that nature).

A good idea to hack off Dorne, the hardest of the 7 kingdoms to hold which you barely won even with dragons. They would surely have been expected to secede from the Iron Throne in response (whether Doran would have made such a bold move is open to question but you'd certainly lose them as an ally).

Rhaegar's getting off the hook far too easily here. If he doesn't run off with her/kidnap her there is no issue to be dealt with and running off with the lead woman of one great house getting married into another great house is incredibly irresponsible. Whatever their real moties there can be no blame attached to the rebel Houses for their response - it's tyrannical behaviour and legitimate reason to remove his family even before the response of Aerys. It amazes me that people still refer to the Targs as the rightful rulers - they gained that rule by force and lost it by force raised against them for quite legitimate reason. One of the main points of the series is that 'rightful' rule does not exist, merely rule by the strongest.

That said Brandon's response is treason. Going to KL at all was a tactical mistake given the state of Aerys but calling for Rhaegar to die is treason. Had he demanded a trial by combat that's legitimate but the exact words 'come out and die' have to be treason even if they amount to the same thing. Given the situation the Wall for him and demanding Rhaegar return Lyanna had to be the right move but Aerys was never going to react like that.

[corbon]

Maybe. It depends on when you think the conversation takes place between Lyanna and Ned about Robert's infidelities (AGoT 318). That is in Winterfell and it's after Mya Stone is born - which puts it at the earliest in about 280 or 281 (right before or right after the tourney) or it could be later. Unless you know something I don't about the timeline that would pin that event down to before the tourney, it seems possible it takes place after.

Fair enough. For some reason I had the impression that Lyanna was betrothed to Robert before the tourney (ie already betrothed to Robert when at the tourney), and that conversation was on the night of her betrothal.

[Geddus]

Had he demanded a trial by combat that's legitimate but the exact words 'come out and die' have to be treason even if they amount to the same thing.

To be fair, we don't really know what went down in KL with Brandon and Aerys. That's how Jaime summed it up, but I think there could be more to that.

As for Lyanna and Rhaegar having time to fall in love, well, she could have been in King's Landing as lady in waiting for Elia for example. However, I think Lyanna's kidnapping/disappearance/whatever must have happened somewhere nearer to KL than Riverrun is since Brandon went to the city thinking Rhaegar was already there.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Nothing tells us Lyanna went back to Winterfell.

Brandon didn't. He was still swanning around Riverrun.

Ned was in the Vale with Robert and Jon Arryn when the war started.

It is likely Lyanna stayed in the south, probably around KL or the Stormlands (to make contacts and get to know people ahead of her time as leading Lady Baratheon) or the Riverlands (where preparations were underway for Brandon's impending wedding).

All that distance from Winterfell, you don't travel for a single event. You go for a tour or extended stay. Got to learn all the social minutiae and politics that the North misses out on, especially if you are going to be Lady of a great House.

Nothing says Lyanna didn't went back to Winterfell, which would be the natural thing to do.

And your timeline is wrong, because Brandon's marriage was scheduled for about a year after Harrenhaal.

As for Lyanna and Rhaegar having time to fall in love, well, she could have been in King's Landing as lady in waiting for Elia for example.

Impossible. Elia wouldn't have as her lady in waiting the woman that Rhaegar crowned as her queen of love and beauty, and she wouldn't go to court after that, specially with Aerys' paranoia about the Northmen in special.

[Eggplant Wizard]

Rhaegar knew but did others like Brandon Stark or Lord Rickard knew it? He needed a "Visenya" but did he have to kidnap a girl who was already betrothed? Why couldn't he kidnap some Tyrell or Frey girl? Why was he still hiding when war was brewing? Why didn't he intervene when Brandon Stark was murdered with Lord Rickard? And the PWWP could have been Viserys or one of Viserys's kid since they were descendant of Aerys and Queen Rhaella? It's Rhaegar's inaction, even indifference, to how people would react and to the actions done by his father that bother me?

No I am sure the other two didn't know it. Let's assume Rhaegar told them about a prophecy and about how he needed Lyanna - they would have laughed in his face. They wouldn't have believed him. The way I see it once Lyanna left the marriage pact was broken causing some major ripples. That political alliance was destroyed angering the Baratheons. The Starks, already angry over Lyanna's apparent abduction, went to war once Brandon and his father were killed. The Tullys were also upset over the fact that Cat's husband was killed. No matter if Lyanna left willingly or if she was forced her leaving created problems for the "southron ambitions" these families had. Those ambitions hinged on her marriage - if she left willingly I believe it would only follow that her father would have forced her to marry Robert anyway which may or may not have boiled over into a war.

Most of your questions relate to kidnapping - we don't know if she went willingly or not. Rhaegar does not seem to be the type to kidnap or to abuse women, Ned said this himself. Viserys was presumably not born under the right conditions to be the Prince so he was out. No indication was given that he satisfied the prophecy and Dany was not born yet.

Rhaegar was thinking on a whole different level than Westeros politics. You know what was on his mind? The elimination of every human in Westeros brought about by an army of undead wights marching alongside the Others.

[Eggplant Wizard]

To be fair, we don't really know what went down in KL with Brandon and Aerys. That's how Jaime summed it up, but I think there could be more to that.

As for Lyanna and Rhaegar having time to fall in love, well, she could have been in King's Landing as lady in waiting for Elia for example. However, I think Lyanna's kidnapping/disappearance/whatever must have happened somewhere nearer to KL than Riverrun is since Brandon went to the city thinking Rhaegar was already there.

Brandon was a hot head. Everything fits and besides Jaime has no love for Aerys so he wouldn't lie to us (read himself because they were his thoughts) about the situation.

[LordBloodraven]

No I am sure the other two didn't know it. Let's assume Rhaegar told them about a prophecy and about how he needed Lyanna - they would have laughed in his face. They wouldn't have believed him. The way I see it once Lyanna left the marriage pact was broken causing some major ripples. That political alliance was destroyed angering the Baratheons. The Starks, already angry over Lyanna's apparent abduction, went to war once Brandon and his father were killed. The Tullys were also upset over the fact that Cat's husband was killed. No matter if Lyanna left willingly or if she was forced her leaving created problems for the "southron ambitions" these families had. Those ambitions hinged on her marriage - if she left willingly I believe it would only follow that her father would have forced her to marry Robert anyway which may or may not have boiled over into a war.

Most of your questions relate to kidnapping - we don't know if she went willingly or not. Rhaegar does not seem to be the type to kidnap or to abuse women, Ned said this himself. Viserys was presumably not born under the right conditions to be the Prince so he was out. No indication was given that he satisfied the prophecy and Dany was not born yet.

Rhaegar was thinking on a whole different level than Westeros politics. You know what was on his mind? The elimination of every human in Westeros brought about by an army of undead wights marching alongside the Others.

The fact is that Rhaegar had no right to elope with Lyanna Stark? He was already married with kids. He may have wanted to fulfill a prophecy but that is no reason to shit on the face of the Warden of the North and the Lord-Paramount of the Stormlands. Besides, Brandon and al. didn't know about the prophecy, what did Rhaegar expect? That they will send him a raven, asking for their betrothed kin to be returned to Winterfell. How will it affect Stark's relations with the Baratheons? What about Robert and Ned's friendship? What about the value of the Stark's word?

We are in Westeros, in a feudal society. The head of the House decide for those under his authority. Lyanna had no right to go with Rhaegar, if she did willingly? Brandon had to marry Catelyn Tully. Ned had to fulfill that betrothal between Starks and Tullys after Brandon's death. Rhaegar didn't care about that. He followed a prophecy that few people knew, triggering a war, honeymooning the first six months and then coming out to crush the Rebellion while promising changes.

[kg1982]

The fact is that Rhaegar had no right to elope with Lyanna Stark? He was already married with kids. He may have wanted to fulfill a prophecy but that is no reason to shit on the face of the Warden of the North and the Lord-Paramount of the Stormlands. Besides, Brandon and al. didn't know about the prophecy, what did Rhaegar expect? That they will send him a raven, asking for their betrothed kin to be returned to Winterfell. How will it affect Stark's relations with the Baratheons? What about Robert and Ned's friendship? What about the value of the Stark's word?

We are in Westeros, in a feudal society. The head of the House decide for those under his authority. Lyanna had no right to go with Rhaegar, if she did willingly? Brandon had to marry Catelyn Tully. Ned had to fulfill that betrothal between Starks and Tullys after Brandon's death. Rhaegar didn't care about that. He followed a prophecy that few people knew, triggering a war, honeymooning the first six months and then coming out to crush the Rebellion while promising changes.

Yes. If he needed a third child and it had to be a girl from the North (ice), then why didn't Rhaegar pay a common girl from the North to act as the surrogate mother. I don't see how it mattered if the child was a bastard. Rhaegar already had a legitimate son. The child is important for a prophecy, not political purposes.

I think that Rhaegar's main issue was that he became fixated with Lyanna and decided that he had to have the prophecy child with her. I also think that Rhaegar was way too obsessed with the prophecy in general. He was basically roaming around Summerhall and brooding about the prophecy while Aerys became more paranoid. It would seem to me that the crown prince should be engaged in running the realm especially since dad wasn't clearly capable of it any more.

Rhaegar's affair with Lyanna may have led to Jon, who may be TPWWP. But based on what we know about prophecies, I'm not sure that a "business transaction" with Lyanna, the miller's daughter, wouldn't have led to the same hero being born. And the realm would have been stable under a sane and fully engaged King Rhaegar rather than the broken Westros at the end of ADWD.

[Marix]

The fact is that Rhaegar had no right to elope with Lyanna Stark? He was already married with kids. He may have wanted to fulfill a prophecy but that is no reason to shit on the face of the Warden of the North and the Lord-Paramount of the Stormlands. Besides, Brandon and al. didn't know about the prophecy, what did Rhaegar expect? That they will send him a raven, asking for their betrothed kin to be returned to Winterfell. How will it affect Stark's relations with the Baratheons? What about Robert and Ned's friendship? What about the value of the Stark's word?

We are in Westeros, in a feudal society. The head of the House decide for those under his authority. Lyanna had no right to go with Rhaegar, if she did willingly? Brandon had to marry Catelyn Tully. Ned had to fulfill that betrothal between Starks and Tullys after Brandon's death. Rhaegar didn't care about that. He followed a prophecy that few people knew, triggering a war, honeymooning the first six months and then coming out to crush the Rebellion while promising changes.

Right. A feudal society. An absolute monarchy. Rhaegar was the crown prince. He had the right to do pretty much anything he wanted.

[kg1982]

Right. A feudal society. An absolute monarchy. Rhaegar was the crown prince. He had the right to do pretty much anything he wanted.

Actually in a feudal society Rhaegar is constrained; he cannot just decide to sleep with the Warden of the North's daughter because he feels like it. This isn't France under Louis XIV. The modern nation state, the divine right of kings, etc. all come a few centuries later. The king in Westros does not have any military power except for a small City Guard. They rely on the Great Houses to provide them with armies. Which means that it is easy for lords to withdraw their support when they feel wronged, which is exactly what happened in Robert's Rebellion.

[Nightstar]

I cannot imagine that Lyanna, as she is described, would meekly go along with a kidnap attempt.

She'd be much more likely to fight to the death.

I believe she was very unhappy to be betrothed to Robert, and was joyful when Rhaegar showed up to ride off with her.

(Seriously, what woman wouldn't prefer Rhaegar to Robert?)

[tozka]

Brandon was a hot head. Everything fits and besides Jaime has no love for Aerys so he wouldn't lie to us (read himself because they were his thoughts) about the situation.

Jaime's thoughts are pretty vague and not mentioning they are coming 17 years later, which of course means that are certainly inaccurate.

What happened in King's Landing is a mystery, yet. I think most likely is that Brandon went there, challenged Rhaegar to duel (he might have said "I challenge thee to a duel, come forth and die" (in the duel because Brandon is better than Rhaegar (so he thinks, he was after all one of the best swordsman in the country))), Aerys was mad and he didn't heard the first part, but just the part 'die' (or maybe he didn't hear anything but was in a mood of killing his bannermen) and decided to roast a couple of nobles.

I cannot imagine that Lyanna, as she is described, would meekly go along with a kidnap attempt.

She'd be much more likely to fight to the death.

Who said she went meekly?! There is no indication how she went with Rhaegar. For all we know she might have gone screaming and kicking but that's nothing that cannot be resolved by a couple of Kingsguards/trusted men-at-arms.She is just one person after all and while skillful she is not Arthur Dayne or Barristan the Bold (and Rhaegar is not Janos Slynt) .

[Lady Mummer's farce]

Do we know where she was kidnapped from? If she was in King's Landing, my thoughts are that maybe Aerys being fond of fires and women and prophecies could have wanted Lyanna himself. I don't know what he would want to do to her, but if he was planning to hurt her, then maybe thats why Rhaegar kidnapped her. To save her from crazy daddy. Just a theory if the king knew the prophecies that Rhaegar knew.

[the Scorpion Knight]

.She is just one person after all and while skillful she is not Arthur Dayne or Barristan the Bold (and Rhaegar is not Janos Slynt) .

AFAIK She was a better swordsmen than brandon

[Dragonfish]

Who said she went meekly?! There is no indication how she went with Rhaegar. For all we know she might have gone screaming and kicking but that's nothing that cannot be resolved by a couple of Kingsguards/trusted men-at-arms.She is just one person after all and while skillful she is not Arthur Dayne or Barristan the Bold (and Rhaegar is not Janos Slynt) .

Yes, but why would George give her such willful and Arya-like characteristics if her only role in the story was as a rape victim?

Furthermore, why would Ned say that her wolf's blood led to her to an early grave, if she was not somehow complicit in her own downfall?

AFAIK She was a better swordsmen than brandon

Lyanna certainly had some martial prowess (she fended off three squires with a tourney sword, after all), but I don't think we've ever been told she was a better swordsman (swordswoman?) than Brandon. She was about as good a rider, though, if not better.

[MtnLion]

Since it is fairly obvious that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar I get a different picture of how Rhaegar and Lyanna arrived at the Tower of Joy. Marriage could have been forced, but that seems unlikely in this situation.

When we consider Aerys' state of mind, I think we need to be mindful that Varys is at his elbow, whispering in his ear. It seems that most everything that has been happening in the Red Keep near the end of Aerys' reign was coming from his advisors. Pycelle advised him to open the gates for the Lannister host. Varys told him that Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow him by making contacts at Harrenhal. It seems to me that no matter what Brandon was after in King's Landing Varys would turn it into treason.

Stark's marriage plans solidified aliances for the majority of Westeros. Was Ned bound to be married into Highgarden? That could either be seen as a serious threat, if the crown had a grievance with House Stark, or as beneficial in holding the kingdom together. It was madness for the crown to alienate House Stark and House Baratheon, and further madness to alienate House Aryn by killing his heir. The crown (King Aerys) should have known that to avoid a serious rift, if not outright rebellion, Brandon Stark needed to be dealt with carefully.

Who is ultimately responsible would rest at the feet of the person who could last have avoided the end result, though others share the blame. The person who could have solved the issue and avoided the rift would have been Aerys. Was Aerys relying on bad advice? Most likely he was listening to Varys, who has his own agenda, and has been applying steady pressure to the unstable King Aerys for quite some time. Yes, Rhaegar made mistakes. Apparently, Lyanna made mistakes, as well. Further, Brandon contributed. It is not clear that King Aerys would have entertained a civilized request. It is not clear that Rhaegar and Lyanna had exhausted a civilized approach. But, it is clear that Aerys brought about the rebellion by his actions.

[LordBloodraven]

AFAIK She was a better swordsmen than brandon

You mean Benjen, when they were 10 years old

[Winterfell is Burning]

I cannot imagine that Lyanna, as she is described, would meekly go along with a kidnap attempt.

She'd be much more likely to fight to the death.

I believe she was very unhappy to be betrothed to Robert, and was joyful when Rhaegar showed up to ride off with her.

(Seriously, what woman wouldn't prefer Rhaegar to Robert?)

You mean, what woman wouldn't prefer a married man with two children he doesn't seem to pay that much attention, who talks about nothing but prophecies he read in a book once, and whose father is a mad man?

Do we know where she was kidnapped from? If she was in King's Landing, my thoughts are that maybe Aerys being fond of fires and women and prophecies could have wanted Lyanna himself. I don't know what he would want to do to her, but if he was planning to hurt her, then maybe thats why Rhaegar kidnapped her. To save her from crazy daddy. Just a theory if the king knew the prophecies that Rhaegar knew.

She couldn't be in KL, because of the reasons I stated before.

And if he was just trying to save her, why not take her to Winterfell?