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Elia & Rhaegar


Stubby

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Seriously, what woman wouldn't prefer Rhaegar to Robert?

The way young Robert is described, I think almost any woman in Westeros would have been very, very happy to marry him.

Furthermore, why would Ned say that her wolf's blood led to her to an early grave, if she was not somehow complicit in her own downfall?

Yeah, that's what makes me basically certain that Lyanna went willingly.

Impossible. Elia wouldn't have as her lady in waiting the woman that Rhaegar crowned as her queen of love and beauty, and she wouldn't go to court after that, specially with Aerys' paranoia about the Northmen in special.

I don't think Elia would be against it if she knew the real reason Lyanna was crowned (KotLT), or if she was in with the whole prophecy business. But you're probably right about Aerys,

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I think a girl would prefer Rhaegar. He was a prince and had ethereal beauty. That's what many girls dream about.

He looked even better than Jaime Lannister so I would take that as he looked better than everyone else. That's enough to me for her to be willing.

Now he's married with kids already but Elia was arranged for him as Robert was arranged for her. Maybe they just chose each other and were overcome by lust.

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Eh, maybe you're right. Maybe I gave Brandon too much credit. It seems excessively foolish to do something so extreme over a consensual elopement. I would think, if it were just that, he would have gone through more proper channels to handle it.

Emphasis mine.

I'd like to note that regarding sexual relations as morally unacceptable due exclusively to lack of consent is a relatively modern concept. That's why, for a long time, having non-consensual sex with a wife (or a concubine or your very own slave) wasn't considered rape at all. (Case in point in the book: Mad King Aerys. It wasn't because he was King that his glorified bodyguards had to ignore the harm he was doing to his wife. It was because he was the husband. And if His Grace wasn't horrifyingly cruel on top of it, I don't think Jaime would even have noticed that something was off.)

What was really important for the honor of the Starks (individually and collectively) was the marital status of Lyanna & Rhaegar. Rhaegar was married to another woman, and Lyanna was unwed - her most important asset at that point being her virginity. Adultery (consensual) or rape (non-consensual) made little difference to the devastating effect this would have on Lyanna's honor. Because, due to Rhaegar's marital status, he couldn't even patch things up by marrying her - in which case everyone could look the other way and pretend the couple didn't do anything naughty before their wedding night.

Now, the piece of the puzzle that's missing (I think), is how known was this relationship. If everyone knew, then everyone cracked jokes about it, and Lyanna's honor was already in tatters - elopement OR abduction. In that case, the Wild Wolf had every reason to be mad about it. And in the heat of the moment, even self-constrained people can do rash things.

But if it was a mostly well-kept secret, then there were so many better ways to deal with this and Brandon's actions were so obviously to the detriment of his sister's honor, that you wonder if he was looking after her, or looking for excuses to win glory in battle.

So until we find out whether people knew about these two or not, I'm reserving judgement. (Unless we have already found out, and I missed it. If that's the case, please let me know.)

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But if it was a mostly well-kept secret, then there were so many better ways to deal with this and Brandon's actions were so obviously to the detriment of his sister's honor, that you wonder if he was looking after her, or looking for excuses to win glory in battle.

So until we find out whether people knew about these two or not, I'm reserving judgement. (Unless we have already found out, and I missed it. If that's the case, please let me know.)

Man it's not just about Brandon or Lyanna, it's about Robert Baratheon too. Rhaegar kidnapped his fiancée and he raped her (we don't know if they were married or if this marriage would have been accepted by the Starks, so it couldn't be marital rape) and then wanted to crush him for rebelling against the Targaryens. Rhaegar wronged them all and then Aerys killed Lord Rickard, Brandon (heir), Elbert Arryn (heir to the Vale) and other lordlings. How do you think the Westerosi noble houses would feel about that? A mad tyrant who could kill them whenever he liked?

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Man it's not just about Brandon or Lyanna, it's about Robert Baratheon too. Rhaegar kidnapped his fiancée and he raped her (we don't know if they were married or if this marriage would have been accepted by the Starks, so it couldn't be marital rape) and then wanted to crush him for rebelling against the Targaryens. Rhaegar wronged them all and then Aerys killed Lord Rickard, Brandon (heir), Elbert Arryn (heir to the Vale) and other lordlings. How do you think the Westerosi noble houses would feel about that? A mad tyrant who could kill them whenever he liked?

But potentially, Rickard Stark was planning on 'wronging' the Targs first by setting up an unusal situation whereby three great houses would be allied by marriage. Rhaegar would have to have been pretty suspious about that.

I'm still saying that the kidnapping of Lyanna was a political stunt by Rheagar to prevent or delay the Stark-Baratheon and Stark-Tully marriage alliances.

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and then Aerys killed Lord Rickard, Brandon (heir), Elbert Arryn (heir to the Vale) and other lordlings. How do you think the Westerosi noble houses would feel about that? A mad tyrant who could kill them whenever he liked?

Yeah, I agree with that. I was commenting only on Brandon's motives. (I quoted a much earlier post. Sorry for the confusion.)

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But potentially, Rickard Stark was planning on 'wronging' the Targs first by setting up an unusal situation whereby three great houses would be allied by marriage. Rhaegar would have to have been pretty suspious about that.

I'm still saying that the kidnapping of Lyanna was a political stunt by Rheagar to prevent or delay the Stark-Baratheon and Stark-Tully marriage alliances.

Well since when arranging political marriages with great families was a crime? I think that Aerys, as a king, had enough means to stop that potential grand alliance if he wanted. He could have arranged for Rhaegar to marry Lysa or Catelyn Tully? He could have proposed someone else (like Willas or Oberyn and binding Highgarden/Dorne to him). He was a king, people would like to marry in his family. It's not Rickard Stark fault. He found good matches for his kids and that's it. I don't know if Rhaegar was suspicious, but in the end he handled it in a very bad way.

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Eh, maybe you're right. Maybe I gave Brandon too much credit. It seems excessively foolish to do something so extreme over a consensual elopement. I would think, if it were just that, he would have gone through more proper channels to handle it. He couldn't have thought that his challenge would have gone over well, nor that he was likely to win even if he was granted a duel, considering Rhaegar's considerable prowess. The only motivation that I thought was likely was that he was concerned over her safety, but I could be wrong. But one thing is clear: he WAS outraged, and the word went out to everyone that it was a kidnapping. She was taken at sword point (also textual evidence) which lent credence to this. I think it's more likely that Brandon thought it was kidnapping, but we'll have to wait and see who's right.

It wasn't some romantic and censesual elopement though!

Rhaegar already had a wife and kids. It doesn't matter if every Stark knew the truth, that Lyanna wanted to go with Rhaegar. It was wrong of Rhaegar to take her away. He was married. She was betrothed to another. A married man can't come and steal a high born maiden because he's got a crush on her. The disrespect that Rhaegar showed Winterfel was a valid reason for Brandon to go berserk, I feel. He wronged the most honorable family in the 7 kingdoms.

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Well since when arranging political marriages with great families was a crime? I think that Aerys, as a king, had enough means to stop that potential grand alliance if he wanted. He could have arranged for Rhaegar to marry Lysa or Catelyn Tully? He could have proposed someone else (like Willas or Oberyn and binding Highgarden/Dorne to him). He was a king, people would like to marry in his family. It's not Rickard Stark fault. He found good matches for his kids and that's it. I don't know if Rhaegar was suspicious, but in the end he handled it in a very bad way.

I think that Aerys obviously had the power to forbid or allow marriages, too. The question is, why didn't he? It seems like a case of bad counsel to a mad king to me. Rhaegar obviously saw the problem, though, and I think it is part of the reason he wanted to kick his father off the throne.

From the time before Baratheon rule, at least in the last few generations that we know of, there are no marriages between the Paramount houses. The Great Lords (and their heirs and other offspring) usually marry the offspring of their bannerman, or failing that, the offspring of the minor lords of other regions. It is highly unsual for Rickard Stark to propose a marriage alliance with one other great house, let alone two. There is maester conspiricies happening here and 'southron ambitions' as well. Rhaegar had a right to be suspicious.

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I think that Aerys obviously had the power to forbid or allow marriages, too. The question is, why didn't he? It seems like a case of bad counsel to a mad king to me. Rhaegar obviously saw the problem, though, and I think it is part of the reason he wanted to kick his father off the throne.

From the time before Baratheon rule, at least in the last few generations that we know of, there are no marriages between the Paramount houses. The Great Lords (and their heirs and other offspring) usually marry the offspring of their bannerman, or failing that, the offspring of the minor lords of other regions. It is highly unsual for Rickard Stark to propose a marriage alliance with one other great house, let alone two. There is maester conspiricies happening here and 'southron ambitions' as well. Rhaegar had a right to be suspicious.

Do you believe by "southron ambitions" that Rickard Stark wanted to oust the Targaryens or to build powerful alliances with the other Riverlands and the Stormlands? I, personnally, don't think that he planned a coup

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Do you believe by "southron ambitions" that Rickard Stark wanted to oust the Targaryens or to build powerful alliances with the other Riverlands and the Stormlands? I, personnally, don't think that he planned a coup

Yes, I do think that.

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I don't think Elia would be against it if she knew the real reason Lyanna was crowned (KotLT), or if she was in with the whole prophecy business. But you're probably right about Aerys,

This is assuming that Elia would be think that such a publicly romantic (and easily misconstrued) gesture was justified by Lyanna's battle prowess. I don't know about you, but I would still not be OK with my spouse making me look foolish that way for any reason. We don't know how Elia felt about it, if she gave a damn about prophesy, if she didn't mind Rhaegar making openly romantic overtures to another woman. I wouldn't venture a guess, though if Oberyn's temperament is any indication...

I'd like to note that regarding sexual relations as morally unacceptable due exclusively to lack of consent is a relatively modern concept. .. What was really important for the honor of the Starks (individually and collectively) was the marital status of Lyanna & Rhaegar. Rhaegar was married to another woman, and Lyanna was unwed - her most important asset at that point being her virginity. Adultery (consensual) or rape (non-consensual) made little difference to the devastating effect this would have on Lyanna's honor. Because, due to Rhaegar's marital status, he couldn't even patch things up by marrying her - in which case everyone could look the other way and pretend the couple didn't do anything naughty before their wedding night.

I see what you are saying. It does seem, though, that a family where a daughter was able to become such a good jouster and as skilled as any knight would be pretty progressive about a woman's choice. That is NOT to say that Lyanna would be able to choose her spouse. Not even the sons were allowed to do that. Regardless of anything, a major insult was done to House Stark, and something material was damaged when Lyanna was taken. It seems like Brandon's reaction would have been somewhat tempered by knowing that she went of her own accord. Like, maybe he wouldn't have committed such blatant treason and would have been in a much better position to make demands. If Rickard had such great ambitions, and Brandon knew it, they could have leveraged this incident to their advantage, no? This is why I thought Brandon's reaction was out of fear that Lyanna was being harmed. Unless he was a moron.

Now, the piece of the puzzle that's missing (I think), is how known was this relationship. If everyone knew, then everyone cracked jokes about it, and Lyanna's honor was already in tatters - elopement OR abduction. In that case, the Wild Wolf had every reason to be mad about it. And in the heat of the moment, even self-constrained people can do rash things.

I'm sure people were talking about it like crazy after Harrenhal, which is probably why the Starks were on edge about it.

But potentially, Rickard Stark was planning on 'wronging' the Targs first by setting up an unusal situation whereby three great houses would be allied by marriage. Rhaegar would have to have been pretty suspious about that.

I'm still saying that the kidnapping of Lyanna was a political stunt by Rheagar to prevent or delay the Stark-Baratheon and Stark-Tully marriage alliances.

There is no evidence that Rickard was planning a coup. Planning to increase his house's status? Yes. Eventually marry into the royal family? I'm sure.

The disrespect that Rhaegar showed Winterfel was a valid reason for Brandon to go berserk, I feel. He wronged the most honorable family in the 7 kingdoms.

It was definitely reason for the Starks to be very angry and demand restitution. Reason for Brandon to totally lose his mind? That's more of a stretch IMO.

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What exactly if I may?

As you said, an ousting of the Targaryens. A coup, a revolution, an uprising, whatever you want to call it. Why? I couldn't say. Maybe Rickard Stark was ambitious for his own family, maybe he just was sick of crazy old Aerys and wanted the whole lot of the Targs gone.

I think one of the main roles that Lady Dustin had in ADWD was to show us a slightly broader snapshot of the situation in Westeros immediately prior to the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing and the Rebellion. So we hear about some bizarre plot that some of the Maesters have to whisper something in Lord Starks ear and we hear about some mysterious 'southron ambitions' that Lord Stark held.

I'm really just trying to come up with a fresh perspective on why Rhaegar did such an idiotic thing as running off with a high lord's maiden daughter. I'm sure mine isn't the most cracked pot you've ever heard, and it's not like we don't have years to debate and rehash ideas and theories!

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I see what you are saying. It does seem, though, that a family where a daughter was able to become such a good jouster and as skilled as any knight would be pretty progressive about a woman's choice.

I don't think she was 'allowed'. We know, I think, that she was 'forbidden' to be trained in swordsmanship (not that it seemed to have stopped her). And we know that horsemanship, which she would almost certainly be free to develop to her hearts content, is 90% of jousting.

I very much doubt she was ever 'allowed' to joust at all, though she may have played at it 'out of sight' so to speak.

It was definitely reason for the Starks to be very angry and demand restitution. Reason for Brandon to totally lose his mind? That's more of a stretch IMO.

:agree:

I think this is a strong reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared.

The Starks have a right to be upset. But without Lyanna around to 'rescue', or Rhaegar to 'challenge', there isn't much they can actually do about things.

After a period of time things will cool a bit, and Rhaegar and Lyanna can reappear as a done deal together and make restitution so that everyone is happy, more or less. Royal Grandkids, some extra Lands and a Seat on the Small Council for the Starks, Rich lands and a Keep for the Baratheons, that sort of thing.

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I don't think she was 'allowed'. We know, I think, that she was 'forbidden' to be trained in swordsmanship (not that it seemed to have stopped her). And we know that horsemanship, which she would almost certainly be free to develop to her hearts content, is 90% of jousting.

I very much doubt she was ever 'allowed' to joust at all, though she may have played at it 'out of sight' so to speak.

Do you remember where it's mentioned that it was forbidden? Not saying you're wrong, just can't remember. I have never jousted (obvs), but it seems like something you'd have to practice to be good enough to unhorse all those champions. So who practiced with her if it was forbidden? I find it hard to believe she could have run off and secretly trained to be a jouster... Didn't Bran see a vision of her playing swords with Benjen? The Starks do seem rather martial, even their women occasionally. They also seem more progressive than most of the other houses. It's not like Rickard and Brandon would have been constitutionally incapable of seeing Lyanna as having made a choice in the matter, even if they found it wrong and infuriating that she went off with Rhaegar.

I think this is a strong reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared.

The Starks have a right to be upset. But without Lyanna around to 'rescue', or Rhaegar to 'challenge', there isn't much they can actually do about things.

After a period of time things will cool a bit, and Rhaegar and Lyanna can reappear as a done deal together and make restitution so that everyone is happy, more or less. Royal Grandkids, some extra Lands and a Seat on the Small Council for the Starks, Rich lands and a Keep for the Baratheons, that sort of thing.

Well, that plan sure backfired.

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Eh, maybe you're right. Maybe I gave Brandon too much credit. It seems excessively foolish to do something so extreme over a consensual elopement. I would think, if it were just that, he would have gone through more proper channels to handle it. He couldn't have thought that his challenge would have gone over well, nor that he was likely to win even if he was granted a duel, considering Rhaegar's considerable prowess. The only motivation that I thought was likely was that he was concerned over her safety, but I could be wrong. But one thing is clear: he WAS outraged, and the word went out to everyone that it was a kidnapping. She was taken at sword point (also textual evidence) which lent credence to this. I think it's more likely that Brandon thought it was kidnapping, but we'll have to wait and see who's right.

To the bolded part of your quote, where is that textual evidence? I don't remember there being any witnesses to the meeting/abduction/whatever between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Brandon's actions are about what I would expect from a macho, chauvanistic hothead of a brother who views women as conquests and maybe fears that other men do the same, and he didn't want his little sister to end up like one of his own conquests. And I agree that it was about Stark honor, but mainly because Lyanna was the price for alliance with the Lord of Storms End... although, truly I think Robert's friendship with Ned might have been enough, a marriage contract is much less breakable.

Having said that, what Rhaegar (or Rhaegar and Lyanna) did was just. not. done. It was a scandal and a shameful act according to their customs. Brandon's outrage is understandable, but his actions were treasonous and got him and his father killed.

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It wasn't some romantic and censesual elopement though!

Rhaegar already had a wife and kids. It doesn't matter if every Stark knew the truth, that Lyanna wanted to go with Rhaegar. It was wrong of Rhaegar to take her away. He was married. She was betrothed to another. A married man can't come and steal a high born maiden because he's got a crush on her. The disrespect that Rhaegar showed Winterfel was a valid reason for Brandon to go berserk, I feel. He wronged the most honorable family in the 7 kingdoms.

Exactly. Plus, wasn't Lyanna 15, a minor, at the time? Could she even consent?

Now, let's put this way: tomorrow, a very famous and powerful politician, and let's say son of the president, a grown man married with two small kids and a wife with health problems, runs away with the virgin teenage daughter of a traditional and very influential political family, abandoning his job and his family. What happens? Is this a major scandal? Is this socially acceptable? Even if they were completely in love, would that be OK?

Obviously not, and this is the 21th century, when divorces, multiple marriages, couples living together without being married, etc, are all seen as socially acceptable. And politicians don't have near-absolute power, even the most powerful ones.

Oh, and sorry, but not even Littlefinger would be sleazy able to convince his wife that he HAD to have a child with another woman, and that woman has to be exactly the woman she knows he has the hots for, and for that he has to run away to a hidden love nest for months abandoning their children, because that will save the world.

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