Elia & Rhaegar

[Dragonfish]

Do you remember where it's mentioned that it was forbidden? Not saying you're wrong, just can't remember. I have never jousted (obvs), but it seems like something you'd have to practice to be good enough to unhorse all those champions. So who practiced with her if it was forbidden? I find it hard to believe she could have run off and secretly trained to be a jouster... Didn't Bran see a vision of her playing swords with Benjen? The Starks do seem rather martial, even their women occasionally. They also seem more progressive than most of the other houses. It's not like Rickard and Brandon would have been constitutionally incapable of seeing Lyanna as having made a choice in the matter, even if they found it wrong and infuriating that she went off with Rhaegar.

Regarding swordfighting, Ned tells Arya that Lyanna would have trained at swords if their father had let her. Obviously she found a different way to train, by challenging her brother(s) to fight.

Regarding jousting, we've been told on two different occasions, once by Jaime and once by Lady Dustin or Lord Bolton (can't remember which, it's in one of Theon's chapters in ADWD), that jousting is mostly about horsemanship. We've also been repeatedly told that Lyanna was an amazing rider. So I think Lyanna already had most of the skills necessary to be a good jouster, and the rest was just learning how to couch her lance properly, which she may have done by riding at quintains.

To the bolded part of your quote, where is that textual evidence? I don't remember there being any witnesses to the meeting/abduction/whatever between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

There are no direct witnesses to the abduction so far. The bolded part of Tyroshi Sellsword's post comes from one of Dany's chapters in ADWD, where she thinks to herself that if Daario really loved her, then he'd carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar did with his northern girl.

[Marix]

Exactly. Plus, wasn't Lyanna 15, a minor, at the time? Could she even consent?

Now, let's put this way: tomorrow, a very famous and powerful politician, and let's say son of the president, a grown man married with two small kids and a wife with health problems, runs away with the virgin teenage daughter of a traditional and very influential political family, abandoning his job and his family. What happens? Is this a major scandal? Is this socially acceptable? Even if they were completely in love, would that be OK?

First of all, 15 is hardly considered a minor in this setting. You can't judge the middle ages by contemporary conventions. Most girls (in our history) were married off by the time they were 13 or so. In the books it's pretty clear that Sansa was considered ready for marriage as soon as she bled. Robb is declared King in the North by, what? 15? 16? And there are stories of boys being knighted at, like, 11. In that culture, she is not considered too young for anything. She is a woman grown.

Your whole premise comparing Lyanna and Rhaegar to today's politicians is ridiculous. Instead, try comparing them to rulers from about 1100 - 1400. Historically, the most common response to a royal having sex with a nobleman's daughter has been closer to "Thank you, sir, would you like another?" than "Come out and die!" (For example, Henry VIII and the Boleyns.) To my knowledge, a prince sleeping with a young lady has never caused a war.

[corbon]

Regarding jousting, we've been told on two different occasions, once by Jaime and once by Lady Dustin or Lord Bolton (can't remember which, it's in one of Theon's chapters in ADWD), that jousting is mostly about horsemanship. We've also been repeatedly told that Lyanna was an amazing rider. So I think Lyanna already had most of the skills necessary to be a good jouster, and the rest was just learning how to couch her lance properly, which she may have done by riding at quintains.

I suspect quintains would necessarily be too 'public' and would have caused trouble. Perhaps tilting at rings would be much easier to do away from eyes which might report to Rickard.

But this is purely speculation.

[Geddus]

I don't know about you, but I would still not be OK with my spouse making me look foolish that way for any reason. We don't know how Elia felt about it, if she gave a damn about prophesy, if she didn't mind Rhaegar making openly romantic overtures to another woman.

I wouldn't be OK with that either. But then, I would also think that someone who does things because he read a prophecy somewhere is at least a little crazy, for example, while everyone seems to think highly of Rhaegar, so...

As for what Elia thought about the whole thing, I agree we haven't the faintest idea: I'd be inclined to agree with you, but what I was saying is that we can't exclude the opposite.

[ARYa_Nym]

While crowning Lyanna was romantic I don't see why that was necessary. He can't reward her in private? It's really a slap in the face and it's like he was saying, "Yeah I did it, so what?"

Usually when someone wants to cheat they don't broadcast it like that.

I'm starting to question just how "fond" he was of Elia. I'm not saying he disliked her but he really embarrassed her.

Also, winter roses were Lyanna's favorites. I've always wondered if the crown was a coincidence.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

To the bolded part of your quote, where is that textual evidence? I don't remember there being any witnesses to the meeting/abduction/whatever between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The reason I give credence to it is b/c Dany would have heard the Targ version of events, which was slanted towards Rhaegar's POV. If they are saying it was at sword point, it likely was. There must have been witnesses; we just haven't heard from any of them.

Brandon's actions are about what I would expect from a macho, chauvanistic hothead of a brother who views women as conquests and maybe fears that other men do the same, and he didn't want his little sister to end up like one of his own conquests. And I agree that it was about Stark honor, but mainly because Lyanna was the price for alliance with the Lord of Storms End... although, truly I think Robert's friendship with Ned might have been enough, a marriage contract is much less breakable.

He would either have to have been overcome with rage OR a total moron (or both). Would he really have been so blinded by rage over chauvinism? It seems really ridiculous to me, but hey, maybe.

Oh, and sorry, but not even Littlefinger would be sleazy able to convince his wife that he HAD to have a child with another woman, and that woman has to be exactly the woman she knows he has the hots for, and for that he has to run away to a hidden love nest for months abandoning their children, because that will save the world.

When you put it that way, it's kind of hilarious. I mean, honestly, who the hell would ever go for such an arrangement? What's worse is being abandoned... with your wayward husband's crazy father, and being publicly seen as having been thrown over for a 15 year old girl. It's one thing to turn a blind eye to infidelity, esp. when you aren't in love with your spouse, but it would sting any but the most hardened woman to be left that way, I think.

Regarding swordfighting, Ned tells Arya that Lyanna would have trained at swords if their father had let her. Obviously she found a different way to train, by challenging her brother(s) to fight.

Regarding jousting, we've been told on two different occasions, once by Jaime and once by Lady Dustin or Lord Bolton (can't remember which, it's in one of Theon's chapters in ADWD), that jousting is mostly about horsemanship. We've also been repeatedly told that Lyanna was an amazing rider. So I think Lyanna already had most of the skills necessary to be a good jouster, and the rest was just learning how to couch her lance properly, which she may have done by riding at quintains.

I think this is not very credible. You might become an adequate swordsman or jouster by solitary practice, but it's highly unlikely that a combat type marital art could be mastered via playing with your brother with a wooden sword, or jousting at quintains. Lyanna was not a merely adequate jouster. She was a champion. Someone must have trained her. It's not intuitive. You have to know exactly when to lower that lance in order to unseat an opponent. How did she practice enough to get to that level? Without Brandon or Rickard knowing? Strains credibility.

As for this idea that anyone excellent equestrian could be an excellent jouster... ask any horse person you know if they think they could pick up a lance, play with it alone, and win a joust (or just not get themselves killed). I think they'd laugh at the notion.

I wouldn't be OK with that either. But then, I would also think that someone who does things because he read a prophecy somewhere is at least a little crazy, for example, while everyone seems to think highly of Rhaegar, so...

My personal belief is that Rhaegar WAS a little crazy, but also charming, gorgeous, and multi-talented, so people remember all that, and tend to attribute his craziness to melancholy, or being deepy and thoughtful (which I'm sure he also was).

I'm starting to question just how "fond" he was of Elia. I'm not saying he disliked her but he really embarrassed her.

That's one of the part of the whole thing that makes me think Rhaegar was a bit selfish-- he didn't consider Elia in any of this, it seems.

[Dragonfish]

I think this is not very credible. You might become an adequate swordsman or jouster by solitary practice, but it's highly unlikely that a combat type marital art could be mastered via playing with your brother with a wooden sword, or jousting at quintains. Lyanna was not a merely adequate jouster. She was a champion. Someone must have trained her. It's not intuitive. You have to know exactly when to lower that lance in order to unseat an opponent. How did she practice enough to get to that level? Without Brandon or Rickard knowing? Strains credibility.

Sure, the manner in which she learned these things can only be speculated, and it's likely that she didn't do it alone. But that doesn't mean Rickard knew about it (I'm not sure why you brought up Brandon, as I never said he didn't know). In fact, as has already been pointed out, Rickard specifically forbade her to learn to swordfight.

As for this idea that anyone excellent equestrian could be an excellent jouster... ask any horse person you know if they think they could pick up a lance, play with it alone, and win a joust (or just not get themselves killed). I think they'd laugh at the notion.

Just to be clear, are you trying to argue that Lyanna didn't learn how to joust, or that she would've needed help to learn how?

In any case, I never said any excellent equestrian could be an excellent jouster, at least not without learning a few more skills. I said that excellent riders already have most of the necessary skills to learn how to joust (at least in Martin's world), so there isn't that much left for them to learn. If you disagree with me, then take it up with Jaime, who is of course an excellent jouster in the books.

There's also this interesting passage in ADWD to consider:

"Horses...the boy [Domeric] was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

This is from p. 430.

[Winterfell is Burning]

From that ADWD passage, I assumed that Lyanna was a warg herself.

My personal belief is that Rhaegar WAS a little crazy, but also charming, gorgeous, and multi-talented, so people remember all that, and tend to attribute his craziness to melancholy, or being deepy and thoughtful (which I'm sure he also was).

And remember Aerys wasn't mad at Rhaegar's age. For me, Rhaegar had he lived probably wouldn't turn out much better than his father.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Sure, the manner in which she learned these things can only be speculated, and it's likely that she didn't do it alone. But that doesn't mean Rickard knew about it (I'm not sure why you brought up Brandon, as I never said he didn't know). In fact, as has already been pointed out, Rickard specifically forbade her to learn to swordfight.

The reason I brought up Brandon and Rickard is that, if Lyanna had so much free time and lack of supervision that she could learn to become a champion jouster, the Starks didn't keep a very tight rein on her. She had a lot more freedom than the average Westerosi woman. This is why I doubt that Brandon would have reacted the way he did if he knew she had chosen to go off with Rhaegar. I think there still would have been outrage and demands, but not blind insanity. These are men who at least acknowledge that a woman can have some freedom and agency.

Just to be clear, are you trying to argue that Lyanna didn't learn how to joust, or that she would've needed help to learn how?

She would have needed help. And apparently it does take quite a bit of practice, so she must have had a lot of free time to do it, without supervision if it were secret from Rickard. This is a girl who had a lot of latitude. Her family apparently did not think of her as this fragile, precious flower who can't take care of herself, so if they freak out about something happening to her, they would probably be genuinely scared for her safety.

I said that excellent riders already have most of the necessary skills to learn how to joust (at least in Martin's world), so there isn't that much left for them to learn. If you disagree with me, then take it up with Jaime, who is of course an excellent jouster in the books.

Nowhere does Jaime say a person could learn it alone, or that it doesn't take a ton of practice, which is my point.

There's also this interesting passage in ADWD to consider:

Does not conflict with any point I'm making.

[Dragonfish]

if Lyanna had so much free time and lack of supervision that she could learn to become a champion jouster,

Technically she wasn't a champion jouster, she only defeated three knights (though that's no small feat either).

The reason I brought up Brandon and Rickard is that, if Lyanna had so much free time and lack of supervision that she could learn to become a champion jouster, the Starks didn't keep a very tight rein on her. She had a lot more freedom than the average Westerosi woman. This is why I doubt that Brandon would have reacted the way he did if he knew she had chosen to go off with Rhaegar. I think there still would have been outrage and demands, but not blind insanity. These are men who at least acknowledge that a woman can have some freedom and agency.

She would have needed help. And apparently it does take quite a bit of practice, so she must have had a lot of free time to do it, without supervision if it were secret from Rickard. This is a girl who had a lot of latitude. Her family apparently did not think of her as this fragile, precious flower who can't take care of herself, so if they freak out about something happening to her, they would probably be genuinely scared for her safety.

Well, as has been repeated several times, Lord Rickard did specifically forbid her from picking up a sword, so she didn't really have "freedom and agency", at least when it came to learning martial skills. I think it's pretty clear she had to learn these things secretly, without her father knowing. She did probably enlist at least one her brothers in this task. But none of this really means that she lived in a permissive environment where this sort of behavior was encouraged; all it means was that she was capable of getting one or more of her brothers to help her.

[LadyMary]

The reason I give credence to it is b/c Dany would have heard the Targ version of events, which was slanted towards Rhaegar's POV. If they are saying it was at sword point, it likely was. There must have been witnesses; we just haven't heard from any of them.

I suppose that makes sense, but it's also possible that what Daenerys heard was bits and pieces from various second and third-hand sources and given how at various points in the books the characters hear rumors travel around the Kingdom and end up distorted along the way (think of the story of Sansa's escape from KL by turning into a wolf), I think it's equally possible that the legend of what happened has been embellished. Maybe that's what Rhaegar wanted people to believe because he was trying to preserve Lyanna's reputation by taking all the blame for himself. The thing that I find odd is that a man who could kidnap a woman at the point of a sword would still be considered a good and noble man by other good and noble men. It's a pretty dishonorable thing to do.

He would either have to have been overcome with rage OR a total moron (or both). Would he really have been so blinded by rage over chauvinism? It seems really ridiculous to me, but hey, maybe.

I think the reason for his rage was his belief that his House had been dishonored because a marriage contract involving his sister had been broken and his maiden sister taken by a married man. But Brandon, by many accounts was a guy who liked to bloody his sword and maybe challenging duels was his go-to strategy. He apparently ignored advice and caution when he went off half-cocked the the Red Keep. He wasn't called the wild wolf for nothing. Does that count as a "moron"?

When you put it that way, it's kind of hilarious. I mean, honestly, who the hell would ever go for such an arrangement? What's worse is being abandoned... with your wayward husband's crazy father, and being publicly seen as having been thrown over for a 15 year old girl. It's one thing to turn a blind eye to infidelity, esp. when you aren't in love with your spouse, but it would sting any but the most hardened woman to be left that way, I think.

I seem to recall that the Martells were pretty peeved about it actually. I do feel for Elia and wonder what her thoughts were on the matter.

I think this is not very credible. You might become an adequate swordsman or jouster by solitary practice, but it's highly unlikely that a combat type marital art could be mastered via playing with your brother with a wooden sword, or jousting at quintains. Lyanna was not a merely adequate jouster. She was a champion. Someone must have trained her. It's not intuitive. You have to know exactly when to lower that lance in order to unseat an opponent. How did she practice enough to get to that level? Without Brandon or Rickard knowing? Strains credibility.

As for this idea that anyone excellent equestrian could be an excellent jouster... ask any horse person you know if they think they could pick up a lance, play with it alone, and win a joust (or just not get themselves killed). I think they'd laugh at the notion.

Maybe Brandon did know and kept the secret from his father because he and Lyanna were kindred spirits...both had "blood of the wolf" in them according to Ned and that led to their premature deaths. Maybe he was her secret jousting partner. Or maybe Rickard indulged Lyanna on mock jousting but wouldn't give in on carrying a sword.

My personal belief is that Rhaegar WAS a little crazy, but also charming, gorgeous, and multi-talented, so people remember all that, and tend to attribute his craziness to melancholy, or being deepy and thoughtful (which I'm sure he also was).

I think maybe he had a mild bipolar disorder which does have a genetic component. People remembered Rhaegar's sadness but he seemed to have periods of uncharacteristic behavior and bad judgement where he would do inappropriate things, like ... crown another woman in full view of your wife... or run off with said woman. In manic periods bipolar people have grandiose notions... like maybe that they or their children are the Prince That Was Promised?

That's one of the part of the whole thing that makes me think Rhaegar was a bit selfish-- he didn't consider Elia in any of this, it seems.

I agree it was selfish, but if he was bipolar, he may have believed he was doing the right thing for the realm.

[Geddus]

She did probably enlist at least one her brothers in this task.

Agree, and I think it was Benjen (even tho he was maybe a bit young then): I believe he was somehow implicated in what happened to Lyanna, anyway. There must be a reason why he took the black.

[Dragonfish]

Agree, and I think it was Benjen (even tho he was maybe a bit young then): I believe he was somehow implicated in what happened to Lyanna, anyway. There must be a reason why he took the black.

It's possible, but I don't think there needs to be any secret reason why Benjen took the black. The fact that he was a third son (like Waymar Royce) and a Stark (who have long supported the Night's Watch) is enough to explain it.

[corbon]

The reason I give credence to it is b/c Dany would have heard the Targ version of events, which was slanted towards Rhaegar's POV. If they are saying it was at sword point, it likely was. There must have been witnesses; we just haven't heard from any of them.

Would she?

Any Targaryen version that was based on actual knowledge of the events, as opposed to reinterpreting Robert's 'official' version, would have to come from those present. Which would be almost entirely people who were out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction until they died, except for Rhaegar himself, who was out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction except for a short time at the end when he turned up, took command, rode off to battle and died - all at around the same time Viserys and the unborn Dany were shipped off to Dragonstone.

So basically, unless Rhaegar did a big "explanation session" to the people being shipped off to Dragonstone (who then told Viserys, who then told Dany) between arriving back at KL to take command and riding off to battle, there is no foundation for any accurate 'Targaryen version'.

Personally I don't see that happening.

IMO Dany is just reinterpreting Robert's 'official' story in a way that puts a good light on her brother. She wasn't born and has never had any contact with any eyewitness. In fact there is little chance of there being any actual chain of contact between eyewitnesses and Dany, except for a brief window where Rhaegar and Barristan were together.

I really don't think it likely that Rhaegar felt he needed to explain what really happened 'back then' to anyone, at least before the rebellion was dealth with. After all, the rebellion was not actually about his little escapade, (whatever Robert syas later) it was about Aerys' 'treatment' of 'innocent' high noblemen.

When you put it that way, it's kind of hilarious. I mean, honestly, who the hell would ever go for such an arrangement? What's worse is being abandoned... with your wayward husband's crazy father, and being publicly seen as having been thrown over for a 15 year old girl. It's one thing to turn a blind eye to infidelity, esp. when you aren't in love with your spouse, but it would sting any but the most hardened woman to be left that way, I think.

There is a lot of overblowing Elia's side of things I think.

She wasn't abandoned. She was still married to Rhaegar, still his wife and mother of his heir and daughter. She was still under his care (just not with him present) at KL, almost certainly still living in his quarters and being cared for under his purse. Really, it is not much different to what Catelyn thinks of Ned when he brings back Jon. Ned was away for nearly a year, and men are almost expected to need a woman (the insult to Cat was bringing Jon home for her to raise, not that Jon existed). Rhaegar was away less than Ned and did not bring back a bastard for Elia to raise.

She wasn't 'horribly insulted' at Harrenhal. Yes, all the smiles died, but that may have been shock on Robert's behalf as much as Elia's, if his betrothal to Lyanna was already public (not sure on that point). Or any of a number of other reasons, including possibly something of an insult to Elia or even just pure surprise.

She wasn't even in a love-marriage. she was married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

It is also worth noting that it is the lot of women to be 'put aside' in this sort of culture if they are no longer able to provide sufficient heirs. The difference in Rhaegar's case is that he belived he needed three kids, rather than just one. And that he didn;t need to discard Elia in order to get more heirs on another woman. Many a nobleman has put aside a wife when she could no longer provide him with children and he felt that his succession was not safe enough yet.

That doesn't make it any better or easier for the wife, but it is part of the cultural parameters.

Not that Elia was treated 'well' or 'nicely', just that there is a lot of indignance on her behalf that isn't necessarily accurate, representative or what she felt. We don't know what she thought at all.

I think this is not very credible. You might become an adequate swordsman or jouster by solitary practice, but it's highly unlikely that a combat type marital art could be mastered via playing with your brother with a wooden sword, or jousting at quintains. Lyanna was not a merely adequate jouster. She was a champion. Someone must have trained her. It's not intuitive. You have to know exactly when to lower that lance in order to unseat an opponent. How did she practice enough to get to that level? Without Brandon or Rickard knowing? Strains credibility.

As Dragonfish already noted, she was not a champion actually. She merely defeated three Knights, none of whom were particularly noted jousters (though they were no mugs since they must have defeated someone else to be challengeable IIRC). SHe never turned up on the following days of the tournament to continue in the competition.

Jousting at a quintain would be hard to do without Rickard's knowledge I think - that is a big enough, bulky enough piece of equipment that it seems like it would be difficult to setup somewhere without Rickard finding out. But it might be easy enough to jury-rig something similar to a quintain.

However jousting at rings would be as easy as tying some hoops to tree branches and exactly the sort of thing a 'half a horse herself' rider with a bit of 'wolf blood' would love to challenge (and probably beat, since she has all the advantages of agility and no need of strength or power) her brothers in, well away from the training yards. And 'practice' alone easily enough too. Heck, a 'wild child' forbidden to train at swordfighting, might well find 'riding out' her best release, and yet, 'not enough' on it's own. So it isn't hard to imagine her frequently 'riding out' more days that not, and delighting in developing great skill in riding at rings (a very martial skill, more 'advanced' than riding at quintain) without anyone every knowing (until she challenges her brothers and beats them!)

As for this idea that anyone excellent equestrian could be an excellent jouster... ask any horse person you know if they think they could pick up a lance, play with it alone, and win a joust (or just not get themselves killed). I think they'd laugh at the notion.

That might be right, but unfortunately isn't relevant. This is GRRM's world and jousting is about what he thinks it is about. And since he has specifically told us from an expert source (Jaime IIRC) that jousting is 90% horsemanship, we have no choice but to accept that.

So Lyanna, half a horse herself, an expert horsewoman has 90% of an advantage over any opponents. Enough of the rest can have been picked up from watching/challenging her brothers and 'playing' alone. It isn't like she beat any famous jousters or anything.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Technically she wasn't a champion jouster, she only defeated three knights (though that's no small feat either).

The three she defeated (if she is the KotLT) were the champions of the previous day, so she must have been championship material.

Well, as has been repeated several times, Lord Rickard did specifically forbid her from picking up a sword, so she didn't really have "freedom and agency", at least when it came to learning martial skills.

And, as has also been repeated several times, Lord Rickard apparently also gave her plenty of free, unsupervised time to learn how to joust and use a sword with proficiency. She was not a woman who was restricted and not given any freedom. What Lord Rickard forbade is beside the point. The point is, he may have forbidden her, but he gave her plenty of latitude to do it anyway. The point is, these are not people who could not conceive of Lyanna making a bold choice. They knew she was strong, willful, and self-determined. They also knew (at least it's likely that Brandon knew, as it seems that Ned did) that Lyanna could kick some ass. So Brandon must have been really scared for her if he reacted as he did, not just angry b/c she defied their father. That's my take on it.

I think it's pretty clear she had to learn these things secretly, without her father knowing. She did probably enlist at least one her brothers in this task. But none of this really means that she lived in a permissive environment where this sort of behavior was encouraged; all it means was that she was capable of getting one or more of her brothers to help her.

I think she DID live in a permissive environment. Can you imagine Cersei learning to joust? No? Why not? Why don't more women wind up as knights? Because their fathers keep them in the castle, learning needle point and singing. Rickard Stark was not that kind of father, obviously.

I suppose that makes sense, but it's also possible that what Daenerys heard was bits and pieces from various second and third-hand sources and given how at various points in the books the characters hear rumors travel around the Kingdom and end up distorted along the way

I imagine she heard it from Viserys, who was 7-8 during Robert's Rebellion. Old enough to have heard and understood a version of the story.

Maybe that's what Rhaegar wanted people to believe because he was trying to preserve Lyanna's reputation by taking all the blame for himself. The thing that I find odd is that a man who could kidnap a woman at the point of a sword would still be considered a good and noble man by other good and noble men. It's a pretty dishonorable thing to do.

He probably had to use a sword to get her away from her retinue, whether she wanted to go or not.

Does that count as a "moron"?

IMO, yes.

I agree it was selfish, but if he was bipolar, he may have believed he was doing the right thing for the realm.

There were other ways he could have done it.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Would she?

Any Targaryen version that was based on actual knowledge of the events, as opposed to reinterpreting Robert's 'official' version, would have to come from those present. Which would be almost entirely people who were out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction until they died, except for Rhaegar himself, who was out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction except for a short time at the end when he turned up, took command, rode off to battle and died - all at around the same time Viserys and the unborn Dany were shipped off to Dragonstone.

So you're saying Rhaegar went in alone to get Lyanna? I doubt it. It's likely there were witnesses on both sides.

There is a lot of overblowing Elia's side of things I think.

Of course you do, as you are heavily biased in Rhaegar's favor.

She wasn't abandoned. She was still married to Rhaegar, still his wife and mother of his heir and daughter. She was still under his care (just not with him present) at KL, almost certainly still living in his quarters and being cared for under his purse.

Yes, she was abandoned. He left her, made no contact, to be with his teenage mistress. He left her with his crazy father, who he knew was dangerous. That's constructive abandonment if not legal abandonment.

Rhaegar was away less than Ned and did not bring back a bastard for Elia to raise.

No, because he was gone for what? A year with no contact? That's really not abandonment to you?

She wasn't 'horribly insulted' at Harrenhal. Yes, all the smiles died, but that may have been shock on Robert's behalf as much as Elia's, if his betrothal to Lyanna was already public (not sure on that point). Or any of a number of other reasons, including possibly something of an insult to Elia or even just pure surprise.

You don't know if she was horribly insulted. ALL smiles died. That means Elia's too. It's entirely possible that she was horribly insulted. We know Oberyn was, and they were very close.

She wasn't even in a love-marriage. she was married to Rhaegar for political reasons.

Which, as I already said, would probably cause her not to care if he had a discreet affair, mistresses, or even visited whores. It's the public nature of the romantic gesture that would have been insulting. No one, even women in non-love marriages, wants to have it thrown in their faces. The Martells are proud people. You're poo-pooing her feelings when they would have been totally legitimate and entirely possible.

It is also worth noting that it is the lot of women to be 'put aside' in this sort of culture if they are no longer able to provide sufficient heirs.

Can you give an example of it happening?

Not that Elia was treated 'well' or 'nicely', just that there is a lot of indignance on her behalf that isn't necessarily accurate, representative or what she felt. We don't know what she thought at all.

We can extrapolate, can't we? And imagine how we'd feel, in the absence of any proof? "All smiles died" suggests she was not happy. And really, who would be? Cersei hated Robert, but she was still pissed off about all his infidelities, and that he still loved Lyanna. These are human being with feelings, which "cultural parameters" neither assuage nor dismiss.

AHowever jousting at rings would be as easy as tying some hoops to tree branches and exactly the sort of thing a 'half a horse herself' rider with a bit of 'wolf blood' would love to challenge (and probably beat, since she has all the advantages of agility and no need of strength or power) her brothers in, well away from the training yards.

REGARDLESS. She must have had LOTS of free time unsupervised to do this. Is my POINT.

That might be right, but unfortunately isn't relevant. This is GRRM's world and jousting is about what he thinks it is about. And since he has specifically told us from an expert source (Jaime IIRC) that jousting is 90% horsemanship, we have no choice but to accept that.

So Lyanna, half a horse herself, an expert horsewoman has 90% of an advantage over any opponents. Enough of the rest can have been picked up from watching/challenging her brothers and 'playing' alone. It isn't like she beat any famous jousters or anything.

You pulled 90% out of the air. That's not what Jaime said at all. "A great jouster must be a great horseman first" in no way precludes "must practice for many hours with expert instruction in order to not get killed."

[corbon]

The three she defeated (if she is the KotLT) were the champions of the previous day, so she must have been championship material.

IIRC to be current 'champion' they had to do no more than defeat a previous champion. Whereupon she could then challenge them.

But I'm not clear on the details and might be confusing with a similar jousting event from Dunc and Egg.

The point is, these are not people who could not conceive of Lyanna making a bold choice. They knew she was strong, willful, and self-determined. They also knew (at least it's likely that Brandon knew, as it seems that Ned did) that Lyanna could kick some ass. So Brandon must have been really scared for her if he reacted as he did, not just angry b/c she defied their father. That's my take on it.

I agree with the point (and yes, we were getting sidetracked, so well done on refocusing).

But I don't think that necessarily Brandon needed to be "really scared for her" to act that way. Angry and insulted could well be enough, depending on his personality (which seems to be very different from Ned's).

It is also possible that Brandon's reaction was much less 'aggressively stupid' than it appears, but we are getting a faded and abbreviated version through Jaime's memory. I tend to believe at least 67/33 on face value unless there is some counter-evidence, or something 'iffy', so I take Jaime's apparently unbiased memory as he says it in probability, but accept that it could be a little different than he tells us.

He probably had to use a sword to get her away from her retinue, whether she wanted to go or not.

I agree that this is probable, or at very least possible.

There were other ways he could have done it.

How?

You believe that to save the realm you must have a third child that is a mix of fire and ice.

Your wife cannot have more children.

A young woman jumps to your attention for admirable deeds (KotLT) and she happens to be just about the only suitable candidate for an 'ice' woman in the realm. But she is betrothed to another.

Inquiries indicate that she is not enamored of her betrothed and in is rather enamored of you. Further inquiries show that her father is unlikely to break his betrothal as it seems he is building a major power-block opposing the throne, of which her marriage is an important component.

Your own father, the king, is increasingly paranoid, almost dangerously so, possibly demented and no longer trusts you.

What better plan, if she is amenable, than to elope together, send word to the families, get married and hide out for 6 months to a year so that they can't do anything about it, then reappear as a done deal and shower gifts and favours to sooth over the hurts.

It works toward the necessary prophecy, it should help keep the realm together by breaking up the power-block forming and if they are hidden, no one can do anything stupid that can't be fixed.

I don;t know what parts of that equation are accurate and what aren't, it is just a summary of various theories that tally with facts.

But what is this "better way of doing things"?

[Corrina]

It's possible Rhaeger and Lyanna engaged in a consensual sexual relationship but when Lyanna found out she was pregnant (if we accept R+L=J) she wanted to go home to Winterfell. Rhaeger, not wanting to let her leave, especially not back to a father who might marry her off to someone else to hide the pregnancy or force an abortion--we know that can be done--then abducted Lyanna against her wishes.

It would explain Rhaeger's "rash" action in moving to save his child, it would explain why her kin reacted so strongly to her abduction if she really was abducted.

But it also wouldn't necessarily negate R+L being a love match.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

IIRC to be current 'champion' they had to do no more than defeat a previous champion. Whereupon she could then challenge them.

But I'm not clear on the details and might be confusing with a similar jousting event from Dunc and Egg.

She defeats 3 champions who won the day before, the 3 whose squires hurt Howland Reed.

But what is this "better way of doing things"?

Why not depose Aerys first? Why keep everything a dead secret? Why not send word to Robert and try to assuage him? Why not immediately offer recompense to Houses Baratheon and Stark once the marriage was a done deal? Why leave Elia with Aerys when Aerys was so crazy?

[corbon]

So you're saying Rhaegar went in alone to get Lyanna? I doubt it. It's likely there were witnesses on both sides.

Try rereading what I wrote?

I think there were very probably witnesses on both sides as well.

I just don't see much chance of any 'Targaryen' witnesses' 'stories' getting back to Dany.

Yes, she was abandoned. He left her, made no contact, to be with his teenage mistress. He left her with his crazy father, who he knew was dangerous. That's constructive abandonment if not legal abandonment.

No, because he was gone for what? A year with no contact? That's really not abandonment to you?

No. It's relatively 'normal' in a period where travel and communication times can be months, communication is not much easier than travel and many poeple have responsibilities which take them away from their families for various reasons.

As I said, Rhaegar is gone for less time than Ned was, yet Ned is not considered to have 'abandoned' Catelyn.

The Crazy father part is also a red herring. Aerys chose Elia as Rhaegar's wife, no one else. And she was mother of Aerys' heir's heir. She was as safe in KL as anywhere in the realm.

The 'made no contact' part is also not a reasonable statement. We have no knowledge of the situation leading up to the 'abandonment'. Rhaegar may have kept Elia well informed, whether he actually consulted her on his actions or not. We also have no knowledge of whether Rhaegar sent messages to Elia after the 'abandonment' or not (though I'd say it was unlikely, apart from attached to any initial message sent to Aerys).

It might have been a "spur of the moment run off together" but we certainly don't know that and there was an unknown amount of time, possibly months or a year, between Harrenhal and the 'abandonment'. We have no idea what Rhaegar did during that time, nor who he was with, nor what he told or discussed with Elia.

Which means categorically stating there was no contact, let alone abandonment is, well... unjustified.

Which makes accusing me of bias for Rhaegar... interesting. :huh:

Can you give an example of it happening?

Canute, Henry the VIII. I'm sure there were many more not so widely known. It is an established enough event to have its own TV Trope page.

We can extrapolate, can't we? And imagine how we'd feel, in the absence of any proof? "All smiles died" suggests she was not happy. And really, who would be? Cersei hated Robert, but she was still pissed off about all his infidelities, and that he still loved Lyanna. These are human being with feelings, which "cultural parameters" neither assuage nor dismiss.

I think extrapolating and imagining how you would feel is dangerous, becaue you are not brought up with and living under the same cultural parameters.

Dismiss them all you like, but the fact is that cultural parameters do change people's feelings. Cersei thinks that way because anything and everything is an insult to her personally and that is all she cares about. Catelyn, as a counter example, was not insulted by Ned's supposed infidelity, but by being effectively asked to publicly live with it thrown in her face every day. See also, for example, muslim women's beliefs about several muslim cultural practices which many non muslims find quite horrific 'on their behalf'.

I'd also be wary about taking things too literally all the time. "All the smiles died" is merely a descriptive line. It might be literally accurate, or it might just mean the general 'air' at the tournament suddenly changed.

That said, I agree that probably Elia's smile died as well.

But not being happy does not equate with any great public insult.

I would be very surprised if every married man who won a tourney was always expected to name his wife the queen of love and beauty.

But I would not be surprised if Rhaegar always had when he won and even had a reputation for that sort of gesture. Which would mean surprise killing all the smiles, and even disappointment and a measure of hurt for Elia, but no great insult.

You pulled 90% out of the air. That's not what Jaime said at all. "A great jouster must be a great horseman first" in no way precludes "must practice for many hours with expert instruction in order to not get killed."

Indeed I did, sorry. That was what I thought the quote was, vaguely.

But it is beside the point, which we don't actually disagree on. :cool4: