Elia & Rhaegar

[Dragonfish]

Here's an interesting SSM about Naerys Targaryen (the wife of Aegon the Unworthy), that mentions something about setting marriage vows aside:

The sister of King Aegon the Unworthy and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight was beautiful as well, but hers was a very fine and delicate beauty, almost unworldy. She was a wisp of a woman, smaller even than Dany (to whom she bears a certain resemblence), very slender, with big purple eyes and fine, pale, porcelain skin, near translucent. Naerys had none of Dany's strength, however. She was sickly as a child and almost died in the cradle; thereafter she found most physical activity to be very taxing. She loved music and poetry, played the harp very well, enjoyed sewing and embroidering. She was devout as well, and often found solace in the pages of The Seven-Pointed Star. After the birth of her son, she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused. Naerys dressed well, but simply, and seldom wore her crown or any other jewelry. Though she had the silver-gold hair of the Targaryens, she often bound it up beneath a hair net or concealed it beneath a cowl. She ate but little and was painfully thin, almost emaciated. Her marriage was a very unhappy one, and it was said that only her son Daeron and her brother Aemon knew how to make her laugh. You will probably want to paint her sitting in a window seat, sewing or reading, with a sad and tired look on her face.

We knew already that marriage vows could be set aside if the marriage was not consummated. Now it appears that marriage vows can also be set aside by the Faith at the behest of the king, consummation or no consummation.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Because Rhaegar came back right after the Battle of the Bells, which happened before Ned married Catelyn, which happened a few months into the war, not 9-10 months.

Do you have references I can reread to see this timeline?

Jesus, the rationalizations with no evidence that people make to defend Rhaegar are unbelievable. "Yes, of course his wife was perfectly fine with him running away with a younger, hotter, healthier woman and leaving her and her kids alone! How could she not to? :rolleyes: ".

Amen.

Also, i thought it was pretty obvious that Renly and Loras didn't intended to "set Cersei aside" for Margaery. They planned to have her killed.

That is an interesting way to look at it. Huh. Makes a hell of a lot more sense and I kind of love the idea...

We knew already that marriage vows could be set aside if the marriage was not consummated. Now it appears that marriage vows can also be set aside by the Faith at the behest of the king, consummation or no consummation.

Surely through the haze of your Rhaegar-love you can see that this would be an incredibly stupid idea, right? You've already got the Starks, Tullys, and Baratheons colluding. What can we do to make House Targaryen's situation even more precarious? I know, let's alienate House Martell! Sorry, this was not in the offing, and was also obviously not a remotely common occurrence, based on how hard you had to dig to find any evidence that it was a possibility (but none that it happened). There is also less than zero evidence that Elia would have been culturally conditioned to believe this as a something that should just accept.

[Dragonfish]

Do you have references I can reread to see this timeline?

Not on me, no. I've loaned out all my copies of ACoK and ASoS. I'll see if I can cull some sources online. Here's one I found from the Citadel's timeline of Robert's Rebellion:

The precise reason for Lord Hoster’s entry into the conflict is unclear, given that Lady Catelyn suggests that the betrothal of Lord Arryn and Lysa Tully was not arranged until after the death of his cousin (III: 32).

The cousin in question was Ser Denys Arryn, Jon Arryn's heir.

The timeline makes this conjecture, based on other available sources:

All of these events [the Battle of the Bells and Rhaegar's return] likely took place not much more than within four or five months after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark...Following this there seems to be a great, lengthy undocumented period before the Battle of the Trident. This period may have lasted as many as seven months.

Another source for this conjecture, which I don't have a quote for yet, is Ned's statement about Jon being younger than Robb. While this could certainly be a lie (in fact, I think it probably was), it has to be a plausible lie, meaning Jon would have to have been conceived around the time Robb was in order for people to believe it.

Surely through the haze of your Rhaegar-love you can see that this would be an incredibly stupid idea, right? You've already got the Starks, Tullys, and Baratheons colluding. What can we do to make House Targaryen's situation even more precarious? I know, let's alienate House Martell! Sorry, this was not in the offing, and was also obviously not a remotely common occurrence, based on how hard you had to dig to find any evidence that it was a possibility (but none that it happened). There is also less than zero evidence that Elia would have been culturally conditioned to believe this as a something that should just accept.

I never said it would be a good idea. You asked for evidence that marriages could be set aside, and I gave it to you.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Interesting. It doesn't really contradict the idea that Rhaegar abandoned Elia, though. He was gone for the first 4-5 months of the war, in an unknown location with his teenage lover, while Elia was in KL as a de facto hostage to Dorne's compliance. That still seems crazy and irresponsible to me.

Also from the cited article:

"King Aerys used Lewyn’s niece, Princess Elia, as a hostage to insure his loyalty."

This undermines the argument that Elia was "as safe in KL as anywhere in the realm." Elia died b/c of Aerys' paranoia, rather than being sent into exile with the heirs, along with Rhaella and Viserys.

I never said it would be a good idea. You asked for evidence that marriages could be set aside, and I gave it to you.

Have we seen one that WAS set aside? A royal marriage? Note also that my point in disputing this is that it has been stated that Elia was culturally conditioned to accept the idea that she could be set aside. I feel that idea has been adequately rebutted. Elia would have had no expectation that this could happen to her, and the idea that she or House Martell would have meekly accepted such an arrangement is ludicrous. As it was, House Martell's displeasure at Elia's treatment by Rhaegar was so well known that it shaped a lot of what Aerys did during the war. Imagine their wrath had she been set aside, an action that is seemingly unprecedented.

This also makes me wonder why Rhaegar decided to stash Lyanna in Dorne...

[Silent_Hero]

I think everyone is really overplaying the "Crowning" scandal what's wrong with saying another woman is more beautiful than your wife? If Rhaegars mom was there should he have felt pressure to have her crowned as she was his mom? So I think that Rhaegar thinking nothing of it just went and crowned Lyanna and all the lowly people just Hyped it up with tales of love and gallantry and whatnot not that much to dwell on really.

As to the Starks execution that is another story,I think something else was goin down,I'd say Varys used Brandons outburst as an excuse to have brandon and Rickard killed for a grudge or because he was trying to start a war. Their deaths didn't immediately start a war,only when Aerys demanded Robert and Ned(at Varys direction?) did Jon Arryn raise his banners with Ned and Rob.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Apparently the crowning of Lyanna was scandalous, as "all smiles died" when he did it.

[Jem]

I think everyone is really overplaying the "Crowning" scandal what's wrong with saying another woman is more beautiful than your wife?

You're not married, are you?

[Dragonfish]

Interesting. It doesn't really contradict the idea that Rhaegar abandoned Elia, though.

I think "abandon" is too strong a word. It implies that he intended to leave her forever, which I don't think anyone is arguing. He only left her for a few months, and I don't think he anticipated any danger to come to her while he was gone. I think he and Lyanna anticipated some heat coming from their respective families toward their union, but I don't think they expected their families to start fighting each other. And yes, while he was away he spent time with his "mistress", but he was most likely trying to make one of the heads of the dragon, which was more important in the long run.

Have we seen one that WAS set aside? A royal marriage? Note also that my point in disputing this is that it has been stated that Elia was culturally conditioned to accept the idea that she could be set aside.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far. It's also not very relevant from my perspective, as I don't think Rhaegar was planning on setting Elia aside in order to marry Lyanna; rather, I think he was planning on invoking the polygamy precedent.

[Silent_Hero]

You're not married, are you?

No and I'm in no hurry.

[corbon]

Have we seen one that WAS set aside? A royal marriage? Note also that my point in disputing this is that it has been stated that Elia was culturally conditioned to accept the idea that she could be set aside.

Ahh, not that I am aware of. The recent thrust of conversation was...

You insisted that "there were other ways he could of done it" in response to someone else saying "Rhaegar believed he was doing the best he could for the realm". (post #95)

I asked you how in post #97.

Instead of answering, you threw 5 questions back at me (post #99).

The fourth of those five questions was

"Why not immediately offer recompense to Houses Baratheon and Stark once the marriage was a done deal?"

The marriage in this subject is between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I answered each question in order with a potential reason (post #102).

The answer I gave for that question was

"Perhaps he/they feared the marriage could be 'set aside' or claimed illegal or whatever if things were done too fast. It's a fair bit harder to do afetr 6 months or so and a pregnant woman, and there is considerably less value for them in doing so as well. I don't know, but I'm not willing to claim some other action was definitely 'better' when I don't know all the parameters."

It should be clear that the marriage in question is Lyanna to Rhaegar and a possible reason they didn't immediately come out in the open is that Rickard could maybe have just denied the legitimacy of the marriage after claiming her physical person back and simply married her to Robert anyway. Maybe not legal, but close enough for some and difficult to do much about it. But that is less likely if they 'reappear' after being married 6 months or so, rather than a few weeks, and especially a less attractive option if Lyanna is pregnant with Rhaegar's child already.

Still, you replied complaining about Aerys and Rhaegar setting aside the marriage, so clearly didn't actually pay any attention to what was written.

I'm not aware of anyone stating that Elia was culturally condition to accept the idea she could be put aside.

If you are referring to the suggesting that Elia could have been set aside similar to Canute, Henry VIII and Maergaery situations (which given the way the conversation has developed you are not, but could be 'adding that in') you might note that I specifically said that a difference there was that Rhaegar didn't need to set her aside should he need further heirs because he has the polygamy option available by precedent).

Page 282, ASoS hardcover:

"The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well."

She defeated champions, who had previously defeated other champions. She must have been pretty fucking good.

Despite your claims, you are using the word 'champion' differently from GRRM.

The Tourney starts with 4 sons of Harrenhal 'championing' the cause of their sister, in whose honour the tourney was in celebration of IIRC. They are Championing their sister's cause as Queen of Love and Beauty.

Challengers who win replace them as Champions and become Champions in turn, effectively championing their own Queen of Love and Beauty.

The last knight standing at the end of the tournament, so to speak, gets to name the Queen of Love and Beauty.

In this context, a temporary/current 'champion' is merely a knight who won at least one challenge. In theory, the standard of champions should rise through the 3 days, with occasional hiccups.

I would guess that the really top notch guys wouldn't even challenge early generally, as they would have to last too long and fight too many bouts to eventually win. I'd guess it is even close to socially unacceptable to challenge too early if you are known to be good, because that denies the lesser knights their moment in the sun, so to speak.

You appear to me to be using it as 'someone who is pretty @^%$ good because they are currently the best at the tourney.'

So they are probably competent enough, but not necessarily particularly good. They only have to win one bout, which could be against someone better who is tired or wounded from previous bouts, or even someone worse who previously won a similarly.

Lets face it, aparently they aren't good enough even to get names, unlike the knights that Rhaegar defeated.

This is not her beating the best of the best. This is just her waiting for three particular knights to win a challenge and be challenge-able, then challenging and beating them.

I think this is a ludicrous assertion. OF COURSE Robert matters. House Baratheon is a major, powerful house in Westeros, and Robert was pretty damn offended. He wasn't "irrelevant until Aerys called for his head." How much time did he have to do much of anything before Aerys called for his head? It is this very attitude on the part of the Targs that led to their extermination. Appeasement and mollification should have been deployed immediately to Stark and Baratheon, yet Rhaegar and Aerys offered neither. Totally disrespectful and inflammatory of them, and the reason why they were deposed.

Funny. We didn't hear anything about Robert, so important, until Aerys calls for his head.

For all his noble blood, and potential social offence, he doesn't actually have any rights that have been trampled on until Lyanna is his wife. That is what make him (relatively) irrelevant at this early stage.

And we didn't hear of the Baratheons or Starks rasing the banners of rebellion in response to Lyanna's abduction, only after Jon Arryn started things off in response to Aerys demanding Robert and Ned's heads.

Here is what you said: "Any Targaryen version that was based on actual knowledge of the events, as opposed to reinterpreting Robert's 'official' version, would have to come from those present. Which would be almost entirely people who were out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction until they died, except for Rhaegar himself,"

Yet somehow you then assert that I am claiming Rhaegar went it alone? (post #96)

You are making the totally unsupported assertion that any of those who were present with Rhaegar were out of contact with the rest of the Targaryen faction until they died. How do you know this? Do you know who was with him, much less their fates?

Fair enough, sort of.

I don't wish to assert that.

But I am pointing out that the next step we know about after this is Brandon doing his thing and nobody at KL knowing where Rhaegar was.

So maybe (probably I think, but not certainly), Rhaegar and Lyanna went more or less straight from the 'abduction' site to ToJ without stopping in KL. And so did the (targaryen side) people that they were with.

And since ToJ survivors are, well, nil from the Targ side and it was in isolation until Rhaegar got word to return, the likelihood is that only Rhaegar and anyone who returned with him (we don't know of anyone) could have told the 'Targaryen side' to anyone Dany would have heard from. And they had a very small window, if any, since Viserys and co were packed of to Dragonstone and around the same time, and there was lots of other things to do at that time rather than have an explanatory chat session.

Which is all relating to the provenence of Dany's 'swordpoint' information. You seem to be saying "she knows the Targ side'. I'm just saying 'we can't be sure of that' and extending it into, 'I don't think she does actually 'know' anything and is jsut targ-slanting the 'official' story'. But I don't know this, I'm just not accepting Dany's 'knowledge' at face value when it's provenance is so uncertain, and even dubious.

You seem to be ignoring both inference and evidence in favor of an interpretation that fits better with your conception of the events. That's bias.

Sigh.

No, I'm keeping options open. I'm saying, generally, we don't know this and that, so we can't claim that and the other as definitive.

I don't get the same impression from you. I get the impression that insist on exactly what went down and there is no other possibility than your interpretation unless there is hard data proving it.

[Geddus]

And yes, while he was away he spent time with his "mistress", but he was most likely trying to make one of the heads of the dragon

"No honey, it's not what you think! I was just trying to make one head of the dragon, you have to believe me!"

Sorry, couldn't resist... but seriously, I don't think anyone would buy that (even if that's really what Rhaegar thought he was doing), not even in Westeros.

[Dragonfish]

"No honey, it's not what you think! I was just trying to make one head of the dragon, you have to believe me!"

I think I'm going to have to try that line one day.

Sorry, couldn't resist... but seriously, I don't think anyone would buy that (even if that's really what Rhaegar thought he was doing), not even in Westeros.

It's not a question of what other people would buy. We here on the forums are trying to judge Rhaegar's actions, and in order to do that we must understand what he was trying to achieve. Arguably making the third head who will help save the kingdom from the Others is more important than, well, practically anything else.

[LordBloodraven]

It's fair to try to determine what Rhaegar was trying to achieve. But let's not forget that Rhaegar wasn't the only guy concerned. Rhaegar should have anticipated the other House's reactions, and that of his paranoid father. Rhaegar has been described as a nice guy by everybody except Robert, but I really have a hard time dissociating his love for Lyanna in his honeymoon at the Tower of Joy. Rhaegar didn't "abduct" her because of duty or prophecy, he loved her and maybe he was trying too to break the unions of Stark and Baratheon. He didn't care a lot about other's reactions. Maybe he expected that the Starks would accept to be married in the royal family, and sat meekly while waiting for the reappearance of Lyanna. In fine, what was he thinking? That they would just let him do as he wanted after he has disgraced them. And about the prophecy, again, nothing proves that Lyanna has to be the mother of the third head of the dragon? Cersei was more than eager to be his mistress, probably.

We don't know if he had accomplices in King's Landing while he was at the Tower of Joy. But unless he was egocentric and reckless than the descriptions we had of him so far, he should have expected a clash between his mad father and the dishonoured Starks and Baratheon and act accordingly...

[Winterfell is Burning]

Here's an interesting SSM about Naerys Targaryen (the wife of Aegon the Unworthy), that mentions something about setting marriage vows aside:

We knew already that marriage vows could be set aside if the marriage was not consummated. Now it appears that marriage vows can also be set aside by the Faith at the behest of the king, consummation or no consummation.

But didn't we knew that? if the husband joins the Faith or the Night's Watch, the marriage is over. I assume it's the same if the wife becomes a septa.

[Corrina]

On Elia being safe in King's Landing, it should be pointed out that, indeed, Aerys did no harm to her and the children. And that when Rhaeger returned, he headed to the Trident to battle Robert.

I'm would guess he fully expected to return quickly after the battle. If not, it's not unreasonable to presume that his heir had to remain in KL's as the possible crown prince.

In fact, Elia and the kids were not in danger from Aerys. They were killed by Tywin showing up at KL. True, that means Rhaeger left them open to that assault. But Tywin wouldn't have attacked if Robert had lost at the Trident.

Basically, Rhaeger dying doomed his family. Not leaving them in KL.

[LordBloodraven]

In fact, Elia and the kids were not in danger from Aerys. They were killed by Tywin showing up at KL. True, that means Rhaeger left them open to that assault. But Tywin wouldn't have attacked if Robert had lost at the Trident

Well, Aerys sent his wife and Viserys to Dragonstone after the Trident and held Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon with him in King's Landing in exchange for Dornish loyalty. It's not Rhaegar's fault but his family certainly wasn't safe from Mad King Aerys.

[Dragonfish]

But didn't we knew that? if the husband joins the Faith or the Night's Watch, the marriage is over. I assume it's the same if the wife becomes a septa.

I don't think we know what the process is for married people to become septons or septas. Perhaps it requires the Faith to first set aside the marriage, or perhaps swearing vows as a septon/septa is enough to annul the marriage. Since the sentence "she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa" implies two separate steps, I think it's the former. Especially since you probably have to go through some period of education first before becoming a septa.

[Corrina]

Well, Aerys sent his wife and Viserys to Dragonstone after the Trident and held Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon with him in King's Landing in exchange for Dornish loyalty. It's not Rhaegar's fault but his family certainly wasn't safe from Mad King Aerys.

Since it wasn't Aerys who killed them but Twyin's orders and his army, it's somewhat hard to make that call. Someone else killed them first. The rest is speculation.

IIRC, Barristan said he was badly injured at the Trident, as we some others of the Kingsguard. Others were with Lyanna, and still more were with Viserys and his pregnant mother. Aerys kept Jamie at KL to protect him the rest of the family from Twyin, which turned out to be a very bad call indeed.

One wonders what would have happened if Barristan and the other Kingsguard injured at the Trident had not been injured and made their way back to KL.

But in any case, it's hard to say Aerys himself was the greater danger when Elia and the children were killed by somebody else. :)

[LordBloodraven]

Since it wasn't Aerys who killed them but Twyin's orders and his army, it's somewhat hard to make that call. Someone else killed them first. The rest is speculation.

IIRC, Barristan said he was badly injured at the Trident, as we some others of the Kingsguard. Others were with Lyanna, and still more were with Viserys and his pregnant mother. Aerys kept Jamie at KL to protect him the rest of the family from Twyin, which turned out to be a very bad call indeed.

One wonders what would have happened if Barristan and the other Kingsguard injured at the Trident had not been injured and made their way back to KL.

But in any case, it's hard to say Aerys himself was the greater danger when Elia and the children were killed by somebody else. :)

My point was that Aerys was a danger to Elia and her kids (not that he was a greater danger than the Lannisters). It is supported in the books, he kept them close (especially Elia) while he sent his wife and younger son to safety.

[Geddus]

I think I'm going to have to try that line one day.

Let me know how it turns out...

It's not a question of what other people would buy. We here on the forums are trying to judge Rhaegar's actions, and in order to do that we must understand what he was trying to achieve. Arguably making the third head who will help save the kingdom from the Others is more important than, well, practically anything else.

Oh I agree. But I think this was about Elia's (and her family's) reaction, and in that case... no way in hell she would be ok wit that kind of explaination, no one would be. Unless she was totally in with the whole prophecy business, of course.

Aerys kept Jamie at KL to protect him the rest of the family from Twyin, which turned out to be a very bad call indeed.

I think Aerys kept Jaime in KL as a hostage, to protect himself from Tywin. Just like he kept Elia and her children there - as opposed to his own wife and children, both born and unborn, who were sent to Dragonstone - to force House Martell to stay loyal.