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the song of Ice and fire


klyonrad

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in the house of the undying. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Chapter_48

I read aCoK and started with aSoS (p. 100)

in one of this hallucination-thingys it is said

He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"

So... what the hell is the song of ice and fire about? I mean it is the title of the whole series and until now this is the only time the phrase is actually being used. After aGoT (watching the HBO show actually) I thought: "ah okay, Ice and Fire --> Daenerys is Fire and the Starks or "the others" beyond the wall are the ice. And Danerys will use her dragons to smash (well... melt it xD) all the dangerous ice-stuff and saves westeros and then everyone loves her. happy ending.

OR she as the fire teams up with them Starks, the ice to fight everything which is evil."

but now... I have the feeling that this song of ice and fire is pretty irrelevant :-/

Also since Ser Jorah says that he doesn't like Ned Stark, I'm sad that daenerys will probably not team up with them ^^

although I'm pretty curious, it would be good to avoid the spoilers now :D

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I am pretty curious as well to find out what the song actually is. I'm not going to jump to too many conclusions yet because I'm about the same distance into the story as you (read ACoK and am to about pg. 100 in SoS as well). I'm assuming it is a prophecy that has to do with either ruling the kingdoms or saving them. I really hope by the time I get to the fifth book that I learn more about it. Right now it's just a guessing game.

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I think the song of ice and fire may just be a symbol for the dichotomy that exists between all the conflicting forces of this series as well as within a lot of the characters themselves. The song of ice and fire is mentioned many times by many different characters, so I have a feeling the song itself is less important than its use to point out these dualities and how their lines and borders can be more blurred and interconnected than a song of ice and fire might suggest. my 2 cents...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the word "Song" implies a unison, a working together of the forces of Ice and Fire, rather than a battle between them. If Jon Snow represents Ice (and the North), Dany represents fire (she is called "bride of fire" in the HoTD), then perhaps these forces work together to make a common cause against a common enemy.

All I can guess is that this could be The Others, although we know very little about who The Great Other is, and what the purpose of destroying humanity would be (what's their motivation? anger at humanity destroying nature? I'm unsure). But GRRM does not create mindless "evil" enemies, not in ASOIAF.

I'm sure GRRM will reveal the Others' motives in time, and likely has already laid groundwork in the plot to reveal who The Others are and what they want.

It's clear that GRRM does not write typical "good vs. evil" stories, and it's quite likely The Others have reasons of their own to be waking up and attacking Westeros. But it's too soon in the story to know much about the Others.

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  • 4 weeks later...

why would jon snow represent Ice?

i think song means story. the whole series is subtitles "a song of ice and fire." the baby's mother asks about a piece of music, and his father replies about a story or destiny. then he mentions that there must be one more. the dragon has three heads. clearly the man is rhaegar. so is he saying there must be one more child for him? or is he referring to dany, who was not yet born? and what does he mean? will it take three targaryens to lead the dragons to westeros?

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Because Stark represents Ice as Targaryen is synonymous with fire.

He couldn't have meant Daenerys because I'm sure he had no idea at that point that his mother would have another child. I assume it meant he himself had to have another child. The popular theory, of course, is that it's Jon Snow.

I think he used the term ice and fire in regards to the prophecies he knew about. That is, it was referring to the war between the Others (Ice) and Prince who was promised (Fire).

The title of the book has multiple meanings, mostly though, I'd guess, it has to do with the two apparant and opposing (or not) forces in westeros that have been growing stronger and shaping it's future since AGoT.

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you're talking about a prophecy that isn't even in this book. there was no mention of rhaegar knowing about prophecies in the first two books, nor any others/prince war. I thought this forum was for new readers of the series.

thanks for the answer, but i'm gonna stay off this site till i read the last three books.

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you're talking about a prophecy that isn't even in this book. there was no mention of rhaegar knowing about prophecies in the first two books, nor any others/prince war. I thought this forum was for new readers of the series.

thanks for the answer, but i'm gonna stay off this site till i read the last three books.

Him mentioning The Prince Who was Promised goes to show he knows about the others and Lady Melisandre's prophecies, all of which is introduced in ACoK. I would suggest staying off the forums until you've read all the books though. Someone is bound to slip up somewhere and you'll see something you won't like.

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  • 5 months later...

what about a union between Jon & Dany as in child/marriage?

The imagery of a blue rose on the Wall Dany experiences in the HOTU might very well might portend/signify some sort of romance between the two characters.

Furthermore, I agree that the "song of ice and fire" could relate to a melding of the two forces working in unison. I also found it curious that Jojen and Meera uttered this phrase at part of their pledge to House Stark in one of Bran's chapters... curious indeed.

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  • 3 months later...

Things that occur to you in the middle of the night: We already have a sword named Ice - does Stannis's sword have a name?

It could be symbolic of many things, but Ice was weilded by a good and noble man while Stannis's sword is weilded by a weak, angry man who resorts to sorcery....

Representing once again the dichotomy of the choices men make and the rules they live by....

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Things that occur to you in the middle of the night: We already have a sword named Ice - does Stannis's sword have a name?

It could be symbolic of many things, but Ice was weilded by a good and noble man while Stannis's sword is weilded by a weak, angry man who resorts to sorcery....

Representing once again the dichotomy of the choices men make and the rules they live by....

Stannis' sword is called Lightbringer, after the original Azor Ahai's sword.

Speculative spoiler ahead:

However, I'm not sure Stannis' Lightbringer is the real deal. It's mentioned several times that it emits no heat although it glows brightly. I actually believe Lightbringer is "the sword in the darkness,... the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn." Azor Ahai would then be the person who 'wields' that sword, i.e., the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 9 months later...

Ice and Fire is a "theme" or a "symbol" in the series that we as readers have to ponder. It could mean love and hate, loyalty and betrayal, peace and war, etc. It doesn't particularly refers to Jon and Dany, or Starks and Targaryens, but it's one way to interpret it.

Shaw: The series title (Song of Ice and Fire) draws on two images that are opposite. With these images, do you mean to suggest that any kind of peace and reconciliation are a lost hope for the people of Westeros?

Martin: No, not necessarily. I think the contrasts of ice and fire, of love and hate, all the things that they symbolize is one of the themes of what the series is about. You can't really encapsulate that in a nutshell, but that's certainly a part of it. I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. That's what I'm striving for here.

Shaw: As the novels unfold, Jon becomes increasingly identified with the northern cold and ice, just as Dany is closely tied to the southern heat and fire. Will these two ultimately embody the central image of the series, Ice and Fire?

Martin: That's certainly one way to interpret it. That's for my readers to argue out. That may be one possible meaning. There may be a secondary meaning, or a tertiary meaning as well.

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I don't think A Song of Ice and Fire have any one particular meaning. It's a collective title to describe a whole series of books and it symbolizes a lot of what takes place in those books. It's like the author chose that particular phrase to name the collection because it fits, not because it's an actual song or allegory used in the books in some way. But I just finished GoT and started ACoK so I may not even know what I'm talking about.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Things that occur to you in the middle of the night: We already have a sword named Ice - does Stannis's sword have a name?

It could be symbolic of many things, but Ice was weilded by a good and noble man while Stannis's sword is weilded by a weak, angry man who resorts to sorcery....

Representing once again the dichotomy of the choices men make and the rules they live by....

I think Stannis' sword is called 'Lightbringer'.

Anyway, I think that the ice and fire part refers to differant character's personalities. It could also refer to Dany's dragons and the Others from the north. It could be representive of houses: stark is ice, Targaryen is fire, etc.

The song part is actually a referance to GRRM's earlier work, he had a short story with the word 'song' in it, I believe.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The title is A Song of Fire and Ice and I am assuming part of it is reference to Jon who is of Targaryn and Stark heritage (my theory based on the 2 books read so far)

I am also assuming it is reference to the direwolves and dragons as their voices/songs are of fire and ice. Dragons(hiss, fire), Direwolves(snow, howl) and together they can fight the evils beyond the wall.

Has anyone seen the movie Stardust? I have and then it got me thinking about these books. In the movie there is a wall protecting the boundairies between a magical kingdom and the real world, what if the ice Wall is doing the same thing? The wall is protecting the realm from the evil supernatural forces. I am also thinking A song of Fire and Ice has to have targaryn and STark blood because one would have to be able to mount and command a dragon and so far only those of Targarn blood, from the recollections of characters, were able to control them and obey the commands. It would also have to be someone who is of old blood of the first men etc which are the Starks.

So far in the first 2 books the Starks or the children have been around someone who is of Targaryn blood through some form or another. meaning the Targaryns/Starks are intertwined in different ways. Even Dany with the Durr lady saw Wolves Dancing in the tent and other figures. Her visions and dreams are fortelling as well which makes me wonder if some of her ancestors are connected tot he first men as well.

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