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Sand Snake No. 9

Chekhov's Armory

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Well the story of Dunk and Egg is very much about knighthood, even though Dunk like Brienne and Sandor is not truly a knight.

The story of the two Clegane brothers is very much about the knighthood too: Gregor who is annointed as a knight, but is a monster, and Sandor who refuses to be anointed as a knight but acts much more like a knight then anyone else in the Kingsguard.

I thought Dunk was a Hedge Knight at first, and a Kingsguard member later on (which implies that he was a Knight, since before Sandor Clegane there were never any members who were not knights).

Are you sure that he wasn't a knight?

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I thought Dunk was a Hedge Knight at first, and a Kingsguard member later on (which implies that he was a Knight, since before Sandor Clegane there were never any members who were not knights).

Are you sure that he wasn't a knight?

yeah, he just lied and said Ser Arlan of Pennytree knighted him.

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Ned was a POV character in AGOT, and we learned that connection through his eyes. Much later, Cersei also became a POV character, and we must assume that she knows as well.

There may well be a third POV character who knows, but I'm not yet aware of any.

No, it was certainly neither Ned nor Cersei; I'm pretty sure it was Arya, and she considered telling him but was angry with him at that point, or something similar, and decided that it would be pointless anyway, since by that point his heritage really meant very little. At any rate, his connection to Robert has served its purpose; it'll be something else that distinguishes him down the road, if anything (and I don't disagree at all with you about him having served a purpose earlier, but was re-introduced, as if to remind us that he's still around).

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Does anyone else consider it possible that the story will just not be able to be wrapped up in two more books? After all, this started out as a trilogy, and very speedily grew WAY out of that limitation.

I am sure that at some point in his life, GRRM might like to do something besides write asoiaf, but so far he seems to almost have a case of literary ADD ...he simply cannot stop himself from chasing off after promising or intriguing new plotlines or characters.

I think that if he can sensibly wrap things up in approximately two thousand more pages, he will...but I also think he is stubborn and committed enough that if he discovers it will take another five books to say everything he has to say, he will darn well do so. He might not even be positive himself yet, how much further he is able/willing/determined to go.

I don't mind either way, as long as he does not begin what I think of as plot-dumping. So often in books, you can tell the exact moment when the author ran out of either ideas or interest. They will start killing off characters in irrational ways, wrapping up complex plot lines with ridiculously simplistic bows (or simply let them fade out altogether), and the book/series will end in some horribly disappointing and unsatisfying way. It makes no difference to me if there are two more books or twenty, as long as they go on for as long as it takes to truly and fairly answer the questions that need answering and finishing the plots that need finishing.

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No, it was certainly neither Ned nor Cersei; I'm pretty sure it was Arya, and she considered telling him but was angry with him at that point, or something similar, and decided that it would be pointless anyway, since by that point his heritage really meant very little. At any rate, his connection to Robert has served its purpose; it'll be something else that distinguishes him down the road, if anything (and I don't disagree at all with you about him having served a purpose earlier, but was re-introduced, as if to remind us that he's still around).

I don't recall Arya ever making the connection. Obviously Ned did and Cersei must have known since the guards were after Gendry, Brienne made a very groggy realization that Gendry looked like Renly, but I don't recall Arya ever realizing the familial connection.

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Ah, Howland Reed -- screw gun, he's Chekhov's thermonuclear warhead. We all read under threat of nuclear medieval war.

As to Gendry -- Brienne called him Renly. Wonder if he ever asked why, and if she ever said?

Here's a summary of Chekhov's guns mentioned in this thread -- it's not everything, because some of the stuff and people mentioned, while important or puzzling, seemed to be something else, or already in play. Anyhoo:

Chekhov's guns

1.Things

Black amethyst hairnet

Robb's will

Rhaenys' cat (the bad black tomcat at the red keep)

Ned's promise to Lyanna

Cersei's fleet under Aurane Waters

The cracked horn Sam brought to the citadel

The Daynes' sword Dawn -- in fact all the missing Valyrian blades

Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail (because they were made from Ice)

Ned's bones

The Hound's helm

Sandor's dirty white cloak

The crypts at Winterfell

The Northern caverns

The Night Fort

Shireen's greyscale

Sandor's cloak

Ned's bones

Needle

Greywater Watch

Littlefinger's Tapestries

Kraken Horn

2. People, in no particular order (omitting the obvious, like the PWWP, Azor Ahai, and Jon's g-d parents, which I guess could be regarded as mysteries central to the plot.)

The hooded man at Winterfell

Quaithe

Septa Lemore

The Great Other – in fact, the entire race of Others

The Knight of the Seashells (The Westerling son who may or may not have been killed at the Red Wedding)

YG/Aegon

Tom O'Sevens at Riverrun

Theon's cock -- or is that a thing?

Nymeria (c'mon, she's a people) and her wolfpack

Darkstar

The Lame Gravedigger

Lanna

Gerion Lannister

Tyrek Lannister

Gendry

Patchface

Hodor

Liddle

Howland Reed

Ser Shadrich

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Does anyone else consider it possible that the story will just not be able to be wrapped up in two more books? After all, this started out as a trilogy, and very speedily grew WAY out of that limitation.

There are many, many people who think this. I think it will be very hard for Martin to do it -- and I wouldn't be heartbroken if he needed to expand the series (assuming it eventually does get finished), but I also think there will be many unresolved plot points. Not everything will be tied up perfectly or at all.

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Of your list, I narrowed it down to those that I think will really have an influence on the main plot.

Robb's will

Ned's promise to Lyanna

Cersei's fleet under Aurane Waters

The cracked horn Sam brought to the citadel

The crypts at Winterfell

Shireen's greyscale

Greywater Watch

All those I eliminated probably are just of lesser significance or of significance to lesser plot lines, little pieces of gratification for the readers (like Needle) or complete Red Herrings (like the Kraken horn).

The hooded man at Winterfell

Quaithe

The Great Other – in fact, the entire race of Others

YG/Aegon

Tom O'Sevens at Riverrun

Patchface

Hodor

Howland Reed

From this list I think some of the people are more significant than others, obviously. And those of the most significance are probably Quaithe, Young Griff, Tom O'Sevens and Howland Reed. Again, those are the ones I think will have real significance on the main storyline.

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I don't recall Arya ever making the connection. Obviously Ned did and Cersei must have known since the guards were after Gendry, Brienne made a very groggy realization that Gendry looked like Renly, but I don't recall Arya ever realizing the familial connection.

Aye, 'tis Brienne who recognized him. I know it was someone, and assumed Arya because she's the one who spent the most time with him, which was my mistake. I'm pretty sure Brienne makes the connection after she realizes that he's not Renly; she decided against telling him, though, at least from what we saw. Still, as Brienne realized, his heritage is pretty irrelevant, though I'm sure someone will want to make something of the fact Robert had Targaryen blood, so Gendry does too... :ack:

At any rate, he's a relatively interesting character of whom it seems likely we'll see more, even if he's not a big mover or shaker.

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No, it was certainly neither Ned nor Cersei; I'm pretty sure it was Arya, and she considered telling him but was angry with him at that point, or something similar, and decided that it would be pointless anyway, since by that point his heritage really meant very little. At any rate, his connection to Robert has served its purpose; it'll be something else that distinguishes him down the road, if anything (and I don't disagree at all with you about him having served a purpose earlier, but was re-introduced, as if to remind us that he's still around).

Brienne is the one who almost tells Gendry that King Robert is his father (I assume that is what you're talking about). She was sooooooo close, and he still doesn't know!

I think this counts.

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Brienne is the one who almost tells Gendry that King Robert is his father (I assume that is what you're talking about). She was sooooooo close, and he still doesn't know!

I think this counts.

Yeah, as I noted, I had mistakenly given her observations to Arya.

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Does anyone else consider it possible that the story will just not be able to be wrapped up in two more books? After all, this started out as a trilogy, and very speedily grew WAY out of that limitation.

I am sure that at some point in his life, GRRM might like to do something besides write asoiaf, but so far he seems to almost have a case of literary ADD ...he simply cannot stop himself from chasing off after promising or intriguing new plotlines or characters.

I think that if he can sensibly wrap things up in approximately two thousand more pages, he will...but I also think he is stubborn and committed enough that if he discovers it will take another five books to say everything he has to say, he will darn well do so. He might not even be positive himself yet, how much further he is able/willing/determined to go.

I don't mind either way, as long as he does not begin what I think of as plot-dumping. So often in books, you can tell the exact moment when the author ran out of either ideas or interest. They will start killing off characters in irrational ways, wrapping up complex plot lines with ridiculously simplistic bows (or simply let them fade out altogether), and the book/series will end in some horribly disappointing and unsatisfying way. It makes no difference to me if there are two more books or twenty, as long as they go on for as long as it takes to truly and fairly answer the questions that need answering and finishing the plots that need finishing.

Yes, I fear this, too. If GRRM needs 5 more books to wrap things up, so be it, as long as he can produce a book every two years. No more crap of releasing one book after 8 years. It's his editor's job to smack his head if Dany heads south or east instead of northwest, and it's his publisher's job to tie him in a deadline that even he can't doodle on.

//despair_mode

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The name of Winterfell (Every time a noble seat has no connection to the Family name I take note!)

Can you explain this one? Winterfell might not have any derivative of "Stark" in it, but its name is an obvious allusion to "Winter is coming," the Stark words. So it still has an unquestionable connection to the Starks and no other family. Same with Sunspear and Dragonstone (named for what appears on the Martell and Targaryen sigils, not the families' names themselves, yet their connection to those families is clear). Riverrun has no derivative of Tully in its name, but its location and the Tullys' prominence in the Riverlands make it an apt name for their seat. Storm's End seems to be named for the country itself, not necessarily for any specific ruling house. The Eyrie sounds like Arryn, but near as I can tell, it's the only seat of any major house with a "connection to the family name." The other seats I mentioned are named for sigils, locations or words.

The two seats whose names clearly harken back to previous holders are Highgarden (held by the Gardeners and surrendered to Aegon I by a Tyrell) and Casterly Rock (held by the Casterlys until Lann the Clever). As to Pyke, I'm not sure how it got its name, but obviously there's no clear connection to the Greyjoy name.

So I guess I'm wondering why you singled out Winterfell?

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Yeah, as I noted, I had mistakenly given her observations to Arya.

Crap, sorry, I missed your post. :blush:

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Can you explain this one? Winterfell might not have any derivative of "Stark" in it, but its name is an obvious allusion to "Winter is coming," the Stark words. So it still has an unquestionable connection to the Starks and no other family. Same with Sunspear and Dragonstone (named for what appears on the Martell and Targaryen sigils, not the families' names themselves, yet their connection to those families is clear). Riverrun has no derivative of Tully in its name, but its location and the Tullys' prominence in the Riverlands make it an apt name for their seat. Storm's End seems to be named for the country itself, not necessarily for any specific ruling house. The Eyrie sounds like Arryn, but near as I can tell, it's the only seat of any major house with a "connection to the family name." The other seats I mentioned are named for sigils, locations or words.

The two seats whose names clearly harken back to previous holders are Highgarden (held by the Gardeners and surrendered to Aegon I by a Tyrell) and Casterly Rock (held by the Casterlys until Lann the Clever). As to Pyke, I'm not sure how it got its name, but obviously there's no clear connection to the Greyjoy name.

So I guess I'm wondering why you singled out Winterfell?

In the case of Sunspear and Dragonstone and Griffin's Roost these names are however tied to the Sigils of the respective ruling houses. Unless I'm mistaken the sun & spear of the Modern House Nymeros-Martell is a mixing of the former sigils of Nymeros and of Martell. So Sunspear was probably founded after the Nymeria-Martell alliance and rise to dominance. Dragonstone HAS a special story relating to its name. Are there not legends about the making of so many dragon gargoyle incorporated into the castle design. I take your point on Riverrun.

Winterfell is particularly interesting because it was built shortly after the War for the Dawn, after the long, dark winter. After the fall of winter. So there is an explanation there. I'm not sure this is the thread to get into it but there are some theories about why Winterfell is special and played a special role in the end of the War for the Dawn. GRRM drops several hints that Winterfell is different, including the name. OK, we can put that aside as a Chekov gun being a touch oblique as it is.

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Perhaps the books Ned lent Tyrion on his trip to The Wall, in particular the one about dragons Tyrion is reading in his POV, might be of some importance someday. I don't recall how much of the Library tower was destroyed, but those books were not among those destroyed.

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there is the archaic meaning of "fell"

fell 3 (fɛl) dictionary_questionbutton_default.gifadj 1. archaic cruel or fierce; terrible 2. archaic destructive or deadly: a fell disease 3. one fell swoop a single hasty action or occurrence [C13 fel , from Old French: cruel, from Medieval Latin fellō villain; see felon 1]

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there is the archaic meaning of "fell"

fell 3 (fɛl) dictionary_questionbutton_default.gifadj 1. archaic cruel or fierce; terrible 2. archaic destructive or deadly: a fell disease 3. one fell swoop a single hasty action or occurrence [C13 fel , from Old French: cruel, from Medieval Latin fellō villain; see felon 1]

Aye, and Tolkien had a "Fell Winter", when the Brandywine froze and it fell to Gandalf and the Dúnedain to protect The Shire both from starvation and from the wolves that crossed the frozen river. The name could be a minor homage to that, or else something that sounded cool and fit; the seat of the Kings of Winter is at Winterfell, and their words are "Winter is Coming". The name of Winterfell is, if anything, just a reflection of the truly important fact, which is the connection of the north to winter, the Others, and the Old Gods (the last two of which may be themselves connected).

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I don't think that every " i " will be dotted and every " t " crossed clearly and explicitly by GRRM. I fully expect that all kinds of things will be left as semi-mysteries or resolved by nods and winks from the author to the reader - for example the limping gravedigger. The brief mention of the limping gravedigger who likes dogs could well have been GRRM wrapping up the Sandor storyline with a nod (Sandor was wounded in the leg) and a wink (you remember Sandor liked dogs don't you).

Some of the other items listed had a kind of narrative charge that has now dissipated - for example Sandor's cloak. If that's found now, well who cares? Sansa is already presumed guilty of the crime of killing Joffrey, aiding and abetting the breach of Kingsguard vows is hardly going to make her sentence worse. And if Sandor is by implication associated with Joffrey's death - fine we know that trying to hunt him down is a wild goose chase.

Again look at Robert Strong. Prior to ADWD how GRRM could get Robert Strong into the Kingsguard was hotly debated. It loomed large as a big narrative hurdle. Come ADWD GRRM writes him into the Kingsguard with barely an eyebrow lifted - no problem.

The problem isn't finding sources of potential plot tension, as can be seen above there's no shortage of those, it's identifying those which are more likely to feature and for me that's got to be those connected with the central drive of the story, in my opinion, the PWWP prophecy and it's relation to the Others.

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