Lady Stoneheart (with Spoilers)

[Drowsey Dragon]

Really? I actually always thought about her as a paranoid woman, and expected that you would be able to sympathize with her because she received her own POV. Obviously that didn't happen, and I still consider her paranoid.

Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you...

[Crown]

Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you...

I agree. But she's extremely paranoid, thinking Tyrion could be hiding inside the walls, come on, he's not an idiot.

[The Roaring Bear]

BTW, anyone notice the similarities between Brienne and Tyrion? Both ugly, both further disfigured in battle and both twice falsely accused. It would be interesting if these two met.

I had not realized that... I hope they bang.

[Balefont]

Good grief.

[The Roaring Bear]

You want it too.

[Balefont]

Insightful.

[Grumpkin Hunter]

Am I the only one who cannot stand any more Catelyn threads :bang: ? So much ranting about how terrible/great Cat is. Personally, I think she sucks as a character but I will never, ever be able to convince someone on an internet forum of this. Nor will anyone ever be able to convince me otherwise. Put it to fucking bed already.

[The Roaring Bear]

Cersei's craziness just seemed too sudden. I understand its because of the 5 year gap that was supposed to take place, but Cersei went from being this person to being a completely different person in less than one book.

Wait, was there actually a 5 year gap? I didnt get that when I was reading since it picks up immediately after Tyrion kills Tywin, so when did this five year gap take place?

[Gryz the BlackSmith]

I thought GRRM was originally planning on having a 5-year gap after SoS. But he realized that such a gap would open more new questions and wouldn't be good for the story. So he decided to not do it. It was one of the reasons why the 4th book was growing too big, and he decided to split it into 2 (AFFC and ADWD).

In the end, there was no 5-year gap for us. Right ?

[Chelisandre]

I certainly didn't make a note of any 5 year gap.

[Valerion Wolf]

what about what she will do if happening upon jon...if possible or if robb gave him winterfell although i believe bran is the natural lord of winterfell and rickon the strong warrior bannerman bran was mentioned as being in his first pov ever. jon has many other...........possibilities

[Biglose]

Due to the recent episode aired, I got to comment here...

Honestly I do not get the impression a lot of people seem to have of either Catlyn or lady stoneheart....

Arresting Tyrion:

Yes, this was irrational and stupid. The correct approach would have been to murder him and dump him in a hollow grave together with the guys he traveled with.

In the long run this would not have saved Ned (but he was lost anyway at that point) but Rob would have been King of the North and Kings Landing would have been taken by Stanis in the first attempt. So for the general good, it would have been wise to murder Tyrion. EVERYONE who says something else has NO Point taking about rationality in the first place, because he or she does not have any clue about it. Now, that Tyrion survives his trail is just dump luck, sorry.

So if Westeros would not hat it out for Stark Blood Tyrion would be crushed on some Rock and the Starks would be the Kings of the North, while Stannis would be sitting on the Iron Throne.

Some guys are saying that she started the war. Bullshit. She missed to finish it by not gutting Tyrion right away. The war was started long before. It started, when a boy fell down a tower. At that point the Starks became too much of a thread to Cersei plan at any rate.

I guess much of the "calling Catlyn" irration comes form a lot of irrational emotion a lot readers harbour for certain other characters.

Her dislike of John Snow: Irrational. Correct. But she acknowledges it and she does not want to feel that way. That makes her human and not irrational.

No releasing Jamie... Not the smartest of calls, true. But it is Rob who makes it worse after the fakt, by killing an ally.

With Lady Stoneheart it goes the same way...

Yeah, she does not show mercy. Which is THE RATIONAL THING TO DO.

The Lannisters pritty much declared total war and are raping and pillaging the north. She only has a small band of loyal fighters. SHE CAN'T AFFORD MERCY.

And yeah, a lot like Brienne but again: The rational thing is to hang her. The rules you set up, have to stand TRUE for all. You can't make exception because you liked someone. Now that would be irrational, wouldn't it?

It is more like she is stripped form all emotial boundaries she had.

If Lady Stoneheart would have taken Catlyns place after Ned left for Kings Landing, her children would all be alive and the Lannisters would be dead. (And even without her knowing what would happen. Only the lack of emotion and cold rationality)

So please don't call her irrational. She is not. She is acting towards a specific goal the most effient way there is. Thats the freaking definition of rationality.

[Albertine]

I love Catelyn. I was really shocked to find out that so many people hate her. But I watched the show before I started reading the book, and HBO Catelyn is incredibly sympathetic. I hear her chapters in Michelle Fairley's voice, with Michelle Fairley's gravity and empathy.

As far as kidnapping Tyrion goes...I think her mistake there wasn't kidnapping Tyrion, it was taking him to Lysa. She'd gotten what she thought was a mark of confidence and trust from Lysa about John Arryn's death, Lysa is her sister, and the Tully words are 'family, duty, honor'. It turned out that Lysa wasn't an ally, and that Lysa was crazy, and THAT was the surprise that made kidnapping Tyrion turn sour.

There's also the fact that she hadn't guessed (and couldn't have guessed) that Littlefinger was pulling Lysa's puppet strings, that Lysa had lied about her husband's murder, etc.

So long as Tyrion was a hostage, the Lannisters were angry but they were also vulnerable. And they knew it.

As far as Jaime goes...personally, I take the HBO show as canon. In the show, Catelyn only releases Jaime because the rowdy soldiers keep trying to kill him and seem sure to succeed. She decides to get some value from releasing him versus negative value from having him die as a captive. In my mind, that's sound reasoning.

In the book, they're at Riverrun, Jaime's in no danger, and the decision doesn't really make much sense.

Completely agree w/ Biglose above. Really, she would have been best off to kill Tyrion. But nobody could have known that. At the time, the only thing he'd really accomplished was to make the Casterley Rock sewers run perfectly.

[Luthien Targaryen]

Just read this chapter in re-read and I'd like to say that i'm rather more horrified about what's happened to poor old Catelyn since she died than i was when she died....I've really come to love Catelyn this time round. Ok, she had her flaws, but doesn't everybody? I wish she was happy in some afterlife somewhere with Ned and Robb. Stoneheart is exactly what she says in the packet, Catelyn with all the warmth, love and positive emotion removed. Catelyn acted out of love for her children, putting them before herself and in some cases you might say, before the best interests of the realm. Stoneheart just wants revenge.

Cersei? Well, in my view she's just gone on a Mean/Gossip Girl(s) ego trip, head cheerleader can't stand the hot new rival and will see her fall no matter what.It's not that crazy, i've met some women who behave like this most of the time, they're usually older than Cersei and haven't seen their eldest child poisoned at their own wedding reception. In comparison to Stoneheart, Cersei does at least sort of claim to have Tommen's best interests at heart...a bit...maybe...

[randompsycho]

I still think Berric missed his chance. He should have resurrected Grey-Wind-Head-Rob instead of Catelyn.