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King in the Centre Bit

The Epilogues- Spoilers

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And, of course, if you yourself were murdered, left to putrefy in a river, then somehow brought back to life . ;)

I'd feel a bit cranky but I couldn't complain too much. Someone did bring me back to life, after all :)

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And, of course, if you yourself were murdered, left to putrefy in a river, then somehow brought back to life . ;)

I'd feel a bit cranky but I couldn't complain too much. Someone did bring me back to life, after all :)

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Hmm, just now thinking of this...any relationship between the Lord of Light's resurrectees and the wights? What powers brings the wights back to life? Are we looking at two ancient Gods, R'hollar the god of light and some unnamed god of the dark that makes the wights? Is this where the whole story is going? what if this all boils down to a battle royal between the righteous undead army of R'hollar and an army of swarming wights!! I think I need to put the books down for a while I have been living in them for the past two months and it's starting to make me crazy!

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Melisandre as much as says so, right? The battle of the kings for Westeros is just a distraction from the real problem. And even way back when Osha was captured at Winterfell, she said Robb's army was marching the wrong way. A bunch of guys with swords and axes and even wildfire is one thing... but zombies and white walkers and whatever the hell else is north of the wall makes the Westeros wars seem like child's play.

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Well, obsidian (dragon glass) is born of fire and, we are being led to believe that it is the only weapon to kill the Others. Think about the title "A Song of Ice (Others) and Fire (R'hllor)" I don't know, like I said my head has been immersed in these books a bit much. I sometimes wonder if the characters are really just manifestations of human nature and the 7 deadly sins I mean 7 is a common thread in these books. Starks = Pride; Lannisters = Greed, lust, & gluttony; Baratheon = wrath & envy; Frey = Sloth. Probably reaching I admit, there are just too many characters to lable them all.

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Well, obsidian (dragon glass) is born of fire and, we are being led to believe that it is the only weapon to kill the Others. Think about the title "A Song of Ice (Others) and Fire (R'hllor)" I don't know, like I said my head has been immersed in these books a bit much. I sometimes wonder if the characters are really just manifestations of human nature and the 7 deadly sins I mean 7 is a common thread in these books. Starks = Pride; Lannisters = Greed, lust, & gluttony; Baratheon = wrath & envy; Frey = Sloth. Probably reaching I admit, there are just too many characters to lable them all.

No, I think you're onto something, Crannog Man, I think 7 is definitely a significant number in the series.

:agree: with the 7. It's something that even I've noticed come up on more than one occasion. I've also thought of the Ice and Fire matching the Others and R'hllor. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all of this, if anything. :thumbsup:

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:agree: with the 7. It's something that even I've noticed come up on more than one occasion. I've also thought of the Ice and Fire matching the Others and R'hllor. It'll be interesting to see what comes of all of this, if anything. :thumbsup:

It would be very fitting if it did turn out like that. Having R'hllor and his (her?) servants as the "good" guys definitely suits the moral ambiguity of the series.

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So, this is the only thing in the entire book that has left me slightly annoyed. The epilogue, I just don't get it and it's for two main reasons:

A) Can Thoros the Red Priest now resurrect anyone and anybody? Seems like a bit of a cop out to me.

B)What is the point of resurrecting Catelyn? She can't speak and is too rotten to walk without a cowl. Surely it isn't to just confirm the identity of a few Freys?

A) It's said in the book that Thoros can only resurrect people with strong wills to live. It's not a cop out - he cannot make a person immortal - and Dondarrion admits that each time he dies and is brought back, he recalls less and less of his former life. Also, it wasn't Thoros who brought Catelyn back, it was Dondarrion. And the cost is obvious - Catelyn had been dead 3 days and her last memories are of being hugely betrayed at the Red Wedding. Of course she wants vengeance on the Freys. And she remains bloated, with a cut throat, and rents in her cheeks that she made while still alive, for all the children she lost. She's not magically "BOOM" back just as she was - there is a cost when bringing back the dead.

B) The point? When did there need to be a point? The BWB is about justice - and what happened at the Red Wedding is a heinous unthinkable crime - in Westeros you DO NOT violate the guest right, and Walder Frey pissed all over it just to get petty vengeance. Dondarrion gave Cat his own life, probably because after 7 or so times being resurrected, he was just freaking TIRED. I see nothing wrong with bringing justice to the Freys and the parts they played in the Red Wedding. They aren't killing little Frey kids who had no involvement - they're hanging Freys INVOLVED in the RW.

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I like Crannog Man's theory of R'hllor and the Other. I agree that the underlying plot is this battle between the two. It'll be interesting to see how GRRM brings it all together, no doubt Dany's dragons will have a big part to play in the eventual war (if it happens)

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B) The point? When did there need to be a point? The BWB is about justice - and what happened at the Red Wedding is a heinous unthinkable crime - in Westeros you DO NOT violate the guest right, and Walder Frey pissed all over it just to get petty vengeance. Dondarrion gave Cat his own life, probably because after 7 or so times being resurrected, he was just freaking TIRED. I see nothing wrong with bringing justice to the Freys and the parts they played in the Red Wedding. They aren't killing little Frey kids who had no involvement - they're hanging Freys INVOLVED in the RW.

That said, the members of the BWB did say that their agenda and ruthlessness have taken a radical turn since Lady Stoneheart is in command and some of them are a bit weary of the mindless Frey hanging.

GRRM stated himself that UnCat might as well be another character because death changed her radically to the point that she is almost a whole new character, hence the name change. He isn't gratuitously bringing back characters from the dead. Cat may have been resurrected, but at what cost ? She can't even recognize a friend and her appearance is a terror to behold. I'm pretty sure Cat wouldn't've minded staying dead.

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A) It's said in the book that Thoros can only resurrect people with strong wills to live. It's not a cop out - he cannot make a person immortal - and Dondarrion admits that each time he dies and is brought back, he recalls less and less of his former life. Also, it wasn't Thoros who brought Catelyn back, it was Dondarrion. And the cost is obvious - Catelyn had been dead 3 days and her last memories are of being hugely betrayed at the Red Wedding. Of course she wants vengeance on the Freys. And she remains bloated, with a cut throat, and rents in her cheeks that she made while still alive, for all the children she lost. She's not magically "BOOM" back just as she was - there is a cost when bringing back the dead.

B) The point? When did there need to be a point? The BWB is about justice - and what happened at the Red Wedding is a heinous unthinkable crime - in Westeros you DO NOT violate the guest right, and Walder Frey pissed all over it just to get petty vengeance. Dondarrion gave Cat his own life, probably because after 7 or so times being resurrected, he was just freaking TIRED. I see nothing wrong with bringing justice to the Freys and the parts they played in the Red Wedding. They aren't killing little Frey kids who had no involvement - they're hanging Freys INVOLVED in the RW.

This is very much a spoiler....the Epilogue of Storm of Swords did not mention who resurrected Cat at all, and we are left to assume it is Thoros, since he is the only one we know *so far* who can resurrect people. I'm guessing this is something you learn in the next book, Feast for Crows?

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Two comments on this.

1. Did Beric die in the process? I don't recall reading that, but people are talking about it as if it dead. And by die, I mean for real. I mean, in the appendices of FFC it lists him as dead, but that could just be refering that people think he is.

2. Was Cat actually ressurected? I was under the impression that she was rescued from the very brink of death. Because if so, it is a bit of a lame gimmick in a serires like this. What's next, Robb getting his real head sewn back on and living? And Eddard? I was disappointed enough with one Stark not being really dead, I don't know if I could take two more. I wouldn't mind Viserys or Tywin coming back to life, but I still don't think I would like this gimmick even if applied to them.

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2. Was Cat actually ressurected? I was under the impression that she was rescued from the very brink of death.

She was resurrected. She was dead for three days - or more - before Nymeria pulled her out of the river and the BWB found her.

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On a maybe unrelated note, but kinda sparked by some people's reactions to Cat's return, and trying to be COMPLETELY polite and without the intention of offending anyone: I just *don't get* the people who root for Lannisters and generally "evil-doers" and completely dislike the Starks and rejoice in their deaths and their failures. It's like reading Anne Frank's Diary and rooting for the SS officials, or reading HP and rooting for Voldemort. A part of me has to wonder if it isn't all really just a way to get notoriety "Look, I root for the bad guys 'cause I'm evil too." I just think that sometimes authors make all the effort in the world to build and create the perfect protagonists, flawing them to make them more human, and giving them great qualities so we'll admire them and be happy when things start looking up for them... And then there are those who cheer when the Freys kill Robb and groan when Cat is brought back.

Oh well.

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Crannogman, i feel you.What we have is a real study of human nature and the forces of light and dark. Good vs evil, .A study in extremes ice and fire can (and will, i betcha) relate to two characters we know and love. Remember your house sigils. What a helluva twist coming.

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I don't know why, but it just occurred to me that Lady Stonheart might have something to do with Rickon's story in the future... Given that Rickon has a story at all...

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