[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

[CrypticWeirwood]

Dorne doesn’t really have 50,000 spears.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Dorne doesn’t really have 50,000 spears.

But how many do they really have? There are several large lords, and with Doran's connections to Lys and Tyrosh he might be able to hire sellswords from there. Yronwood, Dalt...

[Inara]

But how many do they really have? There are several large lords, and with Doran's connections to Lys and Tyrosh he might be able to hire sellswords from there. Yronwood, Dalt...

The rest of Westeros thinks Dorne has 50,000+ spears, Quentyn tells Daenarys that Dorne has 50,000 spears, and yet Doran tells Arianne that they only have 35,000.

I get why Doran would let the other kingdoms think that Dorne has more men than they actually do, but why would Quentyn lie to Daenarys. Nothing good would have come out of that (do you really want to piss off a girl who has three dragons?) unless Dorne actually does have 50,000 spears, or at least close to that number. I'm inclined to think that Doran would have eventually hired sellswords or relied on his alliances in Essos to augment his army to bring his men from 35k to 50k.

OR perhaps 35,000 is their current standing army amongst all of Dorne's bannerman, but it doesn't include recruiting from the smallfolk, as the Lannisters eventually did and the Starks didn't have time to do.

If that's true, then Doran didn't lie to Arianne but obfuscated the truth. It doesn't make much sense, but Doran's been known to hide things from his family, and at the time of his revelation in AFFC, he may not have entirely trusted her with his entire plan (which we ourselves don't know yet). As of DwD, he might have given her updated information that the readers are not privy too.

Either way, it just doesn't make sense why Doran (who surely instructed Quentyn) would give false information to a potential ally.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Inara

[Lebronn Jaime]

50,000 is a semi-historical troop number. When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne he over-estimated Dornish strength at 50,000 spears, possibly to make his victory seem more impressive. Since then it's been assumed by outsiders (whose only resource is Daeron I's account) that Dorne can field an army of 50,000. The benefit to the Martells of letting this misinformation stand is clear. When Quentyn gives this number to Dany he's surrounded by strangers, but even if they were alone it would just be easier to give 50,000.as the strength. Compare with the Persian army under Xerxes I, which was estimated to be between 2.5-4 million by Greek sources when in fact it was much, much smaller.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Lebronn Jamie

[So1ar]

wait a minute, why would arianne marry aegon? i mean if they believe he is the real deal then that would make him her 1st cousin. i know targs marry brother and sister but would do the dornish marry siblings? would arianne marry the son of her aunt?

[Fire Eater]

wait a minute, why would arianne marry aegon? i mean if they believe he is the real deal then that would make him her 1st cousin. i know targs marry brother and sister but would do the dornish marry siblings? would arianne marry the son of her aunt?

In the medieval world, there was no taboo against marrying your cousin, it was a practice not unheard of. This is exemplified by Tywin Lannister marrying his cousin, Joanna.

[gougef]

In the medieval world, there was no taboo against marrying your cousin, it was a practice not unheard of. This is exemplified by Tywin Lannister marrying his cousin, Joanna.

Many states in the US allow it now.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Many states in the US allow it now.

Indeed so. In fact, all but three of the states that allow gay marriage do so. Three of them, however, forbid gay marriage if the couple are first cousins but not otherwise. (This is due to old eugenics laws.)

*BOGGLE*

Can’t figure that one out, biologically.

[kwvapor]

The rest of Westeros thinks Dorne has 50,000+ spears, Quentyn tells Daenarys that Dorne has 50,000 spears, and yet Doran tells Arianne that they only have 35,000.

Either way, it just doesn't make sense why Doran (who surely instructed Quentyn) would give false information to a potential ally.

I think, the key is needs to impress her and sell himself to her.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Censored Wolf

[Bran Vras]

The rest of Westeros thinks Dorne has 50,000+ spears, Quentyn tells Daenarys that Dorne has 50,000 spears, and yet Doran tells Arianne that they only have 35,000.

I get why Doran would let the other kingdoms think that Dorne has more men than they actually do, but why would Quentyn lie to Daenarys. Nothing good would have come out of that (do you really want to piss off a girl who has three dragons?) unless Dorne actually does have 50,000 spears, or at least close to that number. I'm inclined to think that Doran would have eventually hired sellswords or relied on his alliances in Essos to augment his army to bring his men from 35k to 50k.

OR perhaps 35,000 is their current standing army amongst all of Dorne's bannerman, but it doesn't include recruiting from the smallfolk, as the Lannisters eventually did and the Starks didn't have time to do.

If that's true, then Doran didn't lie to Arianne but obfuscated the truth. It doesn't make much sense, but Doran's been known to hide things from his family, and at the time of his revelation in AFFC, he may not have entirely trusted her with his entire plan (which we ourselves don't know yet). As of DwD, he might have given her updated information that the readers are not privy too.

Either way, it just doesn't make sense why Doran (who surely instructed Quentyn) would give false information to a potential ally.

It's a fine question. Quentyn had no need to to state that number. He could simply say "I promise all the strength of Dorne, which has triumphed over the Young Dragon". By stating the number, he makes a false promise which could be very embarrassing later with serious consequences. Moreover, we see several times that Quentyn is not prone to deception.

The only possible conclusion is that Quentyn believed in the 50 thousand spears propaganda, and that he has not been told this state secret. If you want to pursue the logic, you can check this thread.

[VladofWallachia]

Are the notes in the first post the only info on the chapter? There aren't any audio/video recordings of the reading so that someone may transcribe the chapter to text?

[Lord Damian]

Quentyn is a young boy who is only relaying the info given to him by his father.

[Fire Eater]

Quentyn is a young boy who is only relaying the info given to him by his father.

Or in layman's terms, he's a tool.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Fire Eater

[isiman]

wait a minute, why would arianne marry aegon? i mean if they believe he is the real deal then that would make him her 1st cousin. i know targs marry brother and sister but would do the dornish marry siblings? would arianne marry the son of her aunt?

???

Marriage between 1st cousins is legal even today, maybe not popular as before but still happens.

[Rheagar Prime]

holy crap, sh*t just got real aegon and Jon C did the impossible i knew they would win some battle but never thought they would take Storms end and so quickly definately a force to be reconned with. Poor dany i bet she wished she was this affective and she has better resources than aegon lol. Still i do like where this chapter is going the tyrell army coming and oh hell jon c and aegon seem ready. Man i so want to see what arianne has planned knowing her it will be good to watch espeially since it seems she got even wiser.

Fake or not (i hope he is not fake) i am really starting to like aegon VI and jon C more and more

[Shaggy Rickon]

wait a minute, why would arianne marry aegon? i mean if they believe he is the real deal then that would make him her 1st cousin. i know targs marry brother and sister but would do the dornish marry siblings? would arianne marry the son of her aunt?

All elite marry cousins. Royal blood marries royal blood and eventually they are all cousins. Habsburgs come to mind for one. I think the English queen is married to a cousin. Diana and Charles were cousins but Diana was from a lesser branch of the family. The stigma with cousin marriages is strictly an American occurrence.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Could someone give me a direction on where Doran tells Arianne they have no more than thirty five thousand spears? I have read "The Princess in the Tower" time and time again, but not seen it.

[ledlevee]

Could Doran have been projecting the Golden Company with his numbers already? He's a sneaky guy. Maybe he's had something planned all along. I also think he may know that Aegon is a Blackfyre, if he is of course (which I think he is). Dorne never really seemed to like the Targs. It was sort of an uneasy peace between them. Doran seems like the type to go with whoever will help him win. I think in reality, he could care less if Aegon really is a Targ, as long as everyone else thinks he's a Targ.

[Fire Eater]

Could Doran have been projecting the Golden Company with his numbers already? He's a sneaky guy. Maybe he's had something planned all along. I also think he may know that Aegon is a Blackfyre, if he is of course (which I think he is). Dorne never really seemed to like the Targs. It was sort of an uneasy peace between them. Doran seems like the type to go with whoever will help him win. I think in reality, he could care less if Aegon really is a Targ, as long as everyone else thinks he's a Targ.

The Martells had been allies of the Targs since Daeron II married the Prince of Dorne's sister and the Prince of Dorne married Danaerys, Daeron's sister. Elia had also been married to Rhaegar.

While House Martell had sided with Targs against the Blackfyres in all the Blackfyre Rebellions.

Doran would care about Aegon's parentage since it is about whether or not he is his sister, Elia's, son.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Fire Eater

[Rinso]

When Doran and co. learn how Quentyn died it will be only a matter of time before they join "Aegon", I think. And assuming he buys the story about "Aegon"'s parentage, he might feel that this is the only reasonable course of action. Dorne never cared about Dany's claim, they wanted to join her simply to take revenge on the Lannisters for the deaths of Elia and the kids; with one of Elia's kids around, Dany becomes useless for them.