[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

[Nerevanin]

I quite liked the chapter. My favorite part is how they went through the forest and found the cave with faces, I wish GRRM described it a bit more instead of focusing on Elia kissing Feathers. I'm pretty curious about the discussion between Arianne and JonCo+Aegon if it ever happens. Also TWOW is gonna be really good if there will be (at least) three big battles like that.

[House Cambodia]

17 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I quite liked the chapter. My favorite part is how they went through the forest and found the cave with faces, I wish GRRM described it a bit more instead of focusing on Elia kissing Feathers. I'm pretty curious about the discussion between Arianne and JonCo+Aegon if it ever happens. Also TWOW is gonna be really good if there will be (at least) three big battles like that.

I trust he'll take us back to the cave in due course.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about this chapter, but I think it says something fairly good about the pacing: the next Arianne chapter will be either just before, during, or just after a major battle, so it's only taken two chapters in her arc to get there.

I did quite like the implication that Lysono Marr will be taking on a bigger role from now on.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, RoamingRonin said:

It wouldn't be the first time she decided to hate someone over misinformation.

Oberyn really messed things up for Doran by getting himself killed. Arianne and the Sand Snakes have no business playing this game. Let's hope Trystane amounts to something because this generation of Martells aren't worth much. 

I assume you're referring to her belief that she had been disinherited.  In fairness to her, she had good grounds for that belief.  And, as far as she knew, her father wasn't even prepared to allow her to make a good marriage.  All she had to look forward to was marriage to a minor lord, at best.  Or lifelong imprisonment, exile, or death, at worst, if Quentyn was sufficiently ruthless.  The fault really lies with Doran for keeping his daughter out of the loop. 

[Nerevanin]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I trust he'll take us back to the cave in due course.

I hope so! Imo it would be quite a waste to include a huge cave and explicitly say that the children of the forest used to live there, just to leave it a second later and never come back. Maybe we will come back there in a Bran's vision or something?

[illrede]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

WRT the sample chapters, I didn't find this one especially interesting, or the Sansa chapter.

OTOH, I absolutely loved Arianne I, Mercy, Theon I, and the chapters about the Battle of Meereen.  As someone who thoroughly enjoyed both Feast and Dance, I've no reason to suppose that I won't enjoy Winds.

It didn't contradict conclusions from the prior Arianne sample, that's something. She's really not looking forward to being subordinate to Quentyn.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, illrede said:

It didn't contradict conclusions from the prior Arianne sample, that's something. She's really not looking forward to being subordinate to Quentyn.

It's curious that her resentment of Quentyn hasn't abated, even though she now knows that she will be ruling Princess of Dorne after Doran.  My take on the situation is that her ambitions go further than Dorne.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Red Helm said:

I beg to differ. For starters, I view the prose to be of brevity as oppose to plain (such as Slynt's execution where his death is confirmed in two words; Longclaw descended) and there are plenty of chapters where the prose takes on a more adorned nature, such as Daenerys X of A Game of Thrones.

Okay, perhaps I was phrasing it wrong. Brevity is also part of it, of course. I wanted to say that George is neither usually a large vocabulary nor is he often investing time and effort to describe things to create atmosphere or just to give us a picture of a place. We have no clue how Dany's throne room in the Great Pyramid looks like, for instance, or any such details on many other places we visited. In fact, we don't even have very good physical descriptions of the main characters. They are described in general terms and we know about hair colors and eye colors, and who is beautiful and who is ugly, but can anybody describe Cersei's nose, Jaime's chin, Bran's mouth in detail? No, we can't. We don't even get a good picture/feeling how it is to have to interact closely with Tyrion. A different author most certainly would have focused how revolting the scar, the eyes, and Tyrion's malformed head and his overall physical shape was from the POV of a girl like Sansa.

The only detailed physical description I remember of the top of my head is Sandor's, especially the one Sansa gives in AGoT. But even that most uses general terms and doesn't touch on individual features/impressions.

In general this series is actually not structured so much as a novel but as a series of interconnected short stories. The (good) chapters all have a sort twist or cliffhanger at the end like a good short story is supposed to have, and they tend to revolve more around the specific topic than around the general narrative in more conventional novel would. That makes many chapters very powerful in their own right but it also makes the novels jumping from episode to episode rather than telling a consistent interconnected story. I find that especially vexing in the early chapters of AGoT when George clearly uses too few chapters to properly introduce the characters and get the story going.

In addition, it is pretty obvious that George usually only mentions things if they are important. By ADwD this has gone so far that figuring out what it is important is no longer difficult. Everything that's mentioned (aside from, perhaps, some courses) is important.

3 hours ago, The Prince of Magpies said:

Given that Aegon was headstrong enough to defy Jon Connington and lead the attack on Storm's End, perhaps he'll fall for Arianne and insist that he can marry her and take Dany as a second wife in emulation of the Conqueror.

I'm actually not sure that this is a sign of him being headstrong. Connington didn't tell him that Aegon could not lead the attack. He just decided that he would do it. And keep in mind that Aegon approved the plan Connington already had laid out. Considering that this plan most likely included whatever ruse they are going to use to take the castle Aegon is not overly reckless there. And it is crucial for him to visible take charge of his people and be recognized as their leader and future king. If he didn't do that he would remain nothing but a pawn in the hands of Jon Connington - and it is pretty clear that Aegon is having nothing of that (which is fine).

 

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Arianne has come to the conclusion that Dany is a kinslayer;  that she allowed her brother to be murdered, and then murdered her husband, to further her ambition to be Queen.  And, part of her wants Quentyn never to return from Meereen, while another part of her feels terribly guilty about having such a wish.  And, she resents Dany for denying her the chance to marry Viserys.  When she learns of Quentyn's death, she'll definitely blame Dany.

So, I think that the pair of them are being set up as enemies, and rival Queens of Westeros.  That probably won't turn out well for Arianne.

Arianne most likely will blame Dany, but the Quentyn thing is not going to be the reason why Aegon and company will decide to abandon/move forward without Daenerys. It will be their genuine believe that Daenerys Targaryen has died in Daznak's Pit or has no intention of ever returning to Westeros (or marrying Prince Quentyn Martell). This would make it very stupid to ignore the chance Aegon provides right now for Dorne and the Martells.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Okay, perhaps I was phrasing it wrong. Brevity is also part of it, of course. I wanted to say that George is neither usually a large vocabulary nor is he often investing time and effort to describe things to create atmosphere or just to give us a picture of a place. We have no clue how Dany's throne room in the Great Pyramid looks like, for instance, or any such details on many other places we visited. In fact, we don't even have very good physical descriptions of the main characters. They are described in general terms and we know about hair colors and eye colors, and who is beautiful and who is ugly, but can anybody describe Cersei's nose, Jaime's chin, Bran's mouth in detail? No, we can't. We don't even get a good picture/feeling how it is to have to interact closely with Tyrion. A different author most certainly would have focused how revolting the scar, the eyes, and Tyrion's malformed head and his overall physical shape was from the POV of a girl like Sansa.

The only detailed physical description I remember of the top of my head is Sandor's, especially the one Sansa gives in AGoT. But even that most uses general terms and doesn't touch on individual features/impressions.

In general this series is actually not structured so much as a novel but as a series of interconnected short stories. The (good) chapters all have a sort twist or cliffhanger at the end like a good short story is supposed to have, and they tend to revolve more around the specific topic than around the general narrative in more conventional novel would. That makes many chapters very powerful in their own right but it also makes the novels jumping from episode to episode rather than telling a consistent interconnected story. I find that especially vexing in the early chapters of AGoT when George clearly uses too few chapters to properly introduce the characters and get the story going.

In addition, it is pretty obvious that George usually only mentions things if they are important. By ADwD this has gone so far that figuring out what it is important is no longer difficult. Everything that's mentioned (aside from, perhaps, some courses) is important.

I'm actually not sure that this is a sign of him being headstrong. Connington didn't tell him that Aegon could not lead the attack. He just decided that he would do it. And keep in mind that Aegon approved the plan Connington already had laid out. Considering that this plan most likely included whatever ruse they are going to use to take the castle Aegon is not overly reckless there. And it is crucial for him to visible take charge of his people and be recognized as their leader and future king. If he didn't do that he would remain nothing but a pawn in the hands of Jon Connington - and it is pretty clear that Aegon is having nothing of that (which is fine).

 

Arianne most likely will blame Dany, but the Quentyn thing is not going to be the reason why Aegon and company will decide to abandon/move forward without Daenerys. It will be their genuine believe that Daenerys Targaryen has died in Daznak's Pit or has no intention of ever returning to Westeros (or marrying Prince Quentyn Martell). This would make it very stupid to ignore the chance Aegon provides right now for Dorne and the Martells.

However, the reason Dorne will stick with Aegon once Daenerys arrives is because news of Quentyn's death will have set Daenerys up squarely as their enemy.

I mean, surely you must agree that the only worthwhile reason to include the otherwise pointless Quentyn storyline is to justify Dorne siding against Daenerys.

[William_Tell]

It was a  nice read. The kind of thing that makes you eager for more.

Also, I believe that the description of the Rainwood contains a double shout-out to the Lord of the Rings. First the enormous willows on the banks of a stream (Old Man Willow) and then the reference to "beards of silvery moss"( Fangorn=Treebeard). The Rainwood itself is very Fangorn-like in general IMO.

Edited May 12, 2016 by William_Tell
Spelling

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

However, the reason Dorne will stick with Aegon once Daenerys arrives is because news of Quentyn's death will have set Daenerys up squarely as their enemy.

I mean, surely you must agree that the only worthwhile reason to include the otherwise pointless Quentyn storyline is to justify Dorne siding against Daenerys.

Yeah, of course. The news about Quentyn will make it difficult/impossible for Aegon to peacefully include Daenerys into his new regime. Assuming he is already the crowned and anointed King Aegon VI Targaryen by then, sitting the Iron Throne and having won the love of a majority of his people.

But even that should only be one contributing factor. Aegon will have to make other alliances and have to involve himself more deeply into the Westerosi affairs in any possible scenario that has him win and keep the Iron Throne until such time as Dany arrives.

The Faith most likely will also be opposed to the idea of a Daenerys I - or rather, the High Sparrow will be reluctant to counsel Aegon to marry his aunt instead of Arianne (who is only his first cousin). Not to mention that a peace/pact with Daenerys most certainly will mean that Aegon VI and Daenerys I formally share their power, perhaps even in a more explicit way than Aegon and his sister-wives and Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. The Faith would not like that, and neither might Aegon himself by this point. After all, if he wins the Iron Throne then he'll want to keep what he has conquered and not like the idea of sharing it with his aunt.

Dany's associates (foreigners, savages, and Ironborn) along with the rumors painting her as a cruel and mad ruler as well as her religious beliefs (which might actually be R'hllorian or perceived as such from the outside if Moqorro and Benerro end up joining her team) won't make her popular in Westeros, either.

I think this Second Dance kind of thing will actually have little in common with the First Dance. Only the name, basically. The Dance was a war between siblings who hated each other. The Second Dance will be a war between two (distant) relatives who don't even know each other. I think a series of serious misunderstandings (Quentyn) and botched assassination attempts (Strong Belwas trying to murder Dany after Illyrio sends a note to him that the dragon queen is now no longer needed) might poison the relationship between these two people.

But we'll most likely get nothing resembling the scale of the historical Dance. Dany will most likely have a huge fleet by the time she moves to Westeros. And if that's the case then she also has no reason not to attack KL directly. If she takes that she might kill/capture Aegon then and there. If not, then the rest of the war will be a hunt for him and perhaps one or two serious battles after which the thing will be settled. That should take all that long. But in light of the book(s) it took to cover the War of the Five Kings I can't but think that it will have to be at least 1-2 books. Especially in light of the fact that other things are going to happen at the same time. And Dany's arrival the beginning of this Second Dance in Westeros most certainly should happen around the same time or shortly before the final attack of the Others. It cannot happen in the middle of the War for the Dawn because that would make such a civil war a very silly idea.

2 minutes ago, William_Tell said:

It was a  nice read. The kind of thing that makes you eager for more.

Also, I believe that the description of the Rainwood contains a double shout-out to the Lord of the Rings. First the enormous willows on the banks of a stream (Old Man Willow) and then the reference to "beards of silvery moss"( Fangorn=Treebeard). The Rainwood itself is very Fangorn-like in general IMO.

Didn't catch these two, but I was pretty sure that Elia catching blind fishs at the lake in the cave was a pretty obvious nod towards Gollum.

[DarkSister1001]

7 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Those were actually important in a way. It showed that weirwoods were still growing in the Stormlands and these COTF caves might all be connected

To me, the wild weirwoods and the cave were the best and most important parts.  IIRC it's the first time we see weirwoods outside of a Godswood in the south. 

[illrede]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, of course. The news about Quentyn will make it difficult/impossible for Aegon to peacefully include Daenerys into his new regime. Assuming he is already the crowned and anointed King Aegon VI Targaryen by then, sitting the Iron Throne and having won the love of a majority of his people.

I think it's less about Aegon and more about Dorne; I don't rate the chances of an Aegon/Daenerys rapprochement highly in any case, once each got it into their heads to sit the throne and Aegon decided that he wasn't go to be a junior partner. What it serves to do is set up how it is that Dorne- which was ready and waiting for Daeneys' claim to be put forward- ends up on the side of the Mummer's Dragon, making a proper Dance of it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I do wonder how Daenerys is going to justify to herself that she deserves the Iron Throne over her brother's legitimate heir. It can only be a case of her choosing to view him to be an imposter to justify her deeds in her own mind.

But really, if she was about the rightful Targaryen claiming the Throne, Aegon is that rightful Targaryen, unless there is reason to believe that he is not the true Aegon. Else she is just another usurper trying to claim the Throne by force.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I do wonder how Daenerys is going to justify to herself that she deserves the Iron Throne over her brother's legitimate heir. It can only be a case of her choosing to view him to be an imposter to justify her deeds in her own mind.

But really, if she was about the rightful Targaryen claiming the Throne, Aegon is that rightful Targaryen, unless there is reason to believe that he is not the true Aegon. Else she is just another usurper trying to claim the Throne by force.

Aerys II made Viserys his heir, after Rhaegar was killed, and Dany was Viserys' heir.

However, I imagine she'll view Aegon as a fake, a Mummer's Dragon.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Aerys II made Viserys his heir, after Rhaegar was killed, and Dany was Viserys' heir.

However, I imagine she'll view Aegon as a fake, a Mummer's Dragon.

Yeah, well, I've read that view, but it is nonsense, quite frankly. Rhaegar's kids were still the heirs, else Jon's birth mystery is meaningless.

I can only assume that Aerys felt that an adult heir was more appropriate than a baby in such a time of peril, and named Visesrys for the sake of practicality. But clearly Aegon was meant to follow Rhaegar on the Throne, if not for the crisis.

In any case. Just because Aerys named Viserys as heir does not make Daenerys Viserys' heir. He never named her his heir. The true line of succession would run through Aegon, if he was legitimate. Besides, Targaryens overlook female heirs in favour of males, even if the female is closer in the line of succession - which Daenerys isn't in any case, as explained above.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I do wonder how Daenerys is going to justify to herself that she deserves the Iron Throne over her brother's legitimate heir. It can only be a case of her choosing to view him to be an imposter to justify her deeds in her own mind.

But really, if she was about the rightful Targaryen claiming the Throne, Aegon is that rightful Targaryen, unless there is reason to believe that he is not the true Aegon. Else she is just another usurper trying to claim the Throne by force.

This was never about legal prattle. Daenerys Targaryen is the last legitimate scion of House Targaryen in the eyes of the world. Any secret or hidden Targaryens (like Jon, Aegon, or Tyrion) play in different leagues because nobody knew about their existence until very recently (or not at all).

Dany may decide that Aegon is not her brother's son because there is no proof that he is Rhaegar's son - and she has no reason to believe that he is the real deal. She doesn't even have to enter into Blackfyre conspiracy territory for that.

In addition, Dany was the chosen and anointed heir of her brother, King Viserys III, who in turn had been the chosen and anointed heir of her late father, Aerys II. If she wants to play the legal game she can proclaim that Prince Aegon lost his claim to the Iron Throne for good when her father named Viserys his heir.

Secret/hidden princes are political non-entities. It is not Dany's fault (or the world's fault) that Prince Aegon was raised in obscurity. History and reality made Daenerys Targaryen the last scion of House Targaryen and - from her point of view - the rightful Queen of Westeros. She is not going to give that up.

Note that nobody styles or addresses Prince Aegon as 'King Aegon VI Targaryen'. He is no king yet. Nobody has crowned or anointed him, and neither was named Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne.

But I'd also say that right now Dany has no reason to oppose Aegon or see him as her enemy. I think she'll will show signs to compromize at first. This is going to be a slippery slope, not a scenario in which friends and enemies are clear from the beginning. Dany owes Illyrio and Varys for the dragons. That is a fact. And she feels that way, too. She most certainly won't give up the Iron Throne but I guess she would be willing to enter into a political marriage of some sort. A deal to share the power. And it will not matter whether Aegon is Rhaegar's son, a Blackfyre, or a complete fake. Getting power through or with Aegon surely will be preferable to war. Only if that's rejected (and she is actually physicially attacked/betrayed) will she decide begin a war.

But any escalation scenario between Dany-Aegon has to go with the assumption that Aegon is pretty much in charge of all/most of the Realm. Else his faction will be glad for Dany's help/assistance/support when she comes and not see her as a threat. Tyrion is going to see how he fucked himself with his advice to Aegon if Aegon neither failed nor is in need of Dany's assistance but has no longer any use for either of them...

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, well, I've read that view, but it is nonsense, quite frankly. Rhaegar's kids were still the heirs, else Jon's birth mystery is meaningless.

I can only assume that Aerys felt that an adult heir was more appropriate than a baby in such a time of peril, and named Visesrys for the sake of practicality. But clearly Aegon was meant to follow Rhaegar on the Throne, if not for the crisis.

In any case. Just because Aerys named Viserys as heir does not make Daenerys Viserys' heir. He never named her his heir. The true line of succession would run through Aegon, if he was legitimate. Besides, Targaryens overlook female heirs in favour of males, even if the female is closer in the line of succession - which Daenerys isn't in any case, as explained above.

Nope. The king decides who his heir will be, and nobody else, actually (unless he makes no decision at all and there is a Great Council called by him or his Hand to peacefully settle the succession).

Prince Rhaegar was Aerys II Heir Apparent and the Prince of Dragonstone. But Prince Aegon was never formally installed or anointed as second in line to the Iron Throne by Aerys II. Aerys even refused to touch or recognize his granddaughter Princess Rhaenys as such, making it dubious whether he ever considered Rhaegar's children to be members of the royal family.

If Rhaegar I had ascended the Iron Throne he would most likely have formally installed Prince Aegon as Heir Apparent and Prince of Dragonstone. But it never came to that. And therefore Prince Aegon was just one of the minor claimants to the Iron Throne by the time of his death. One that he had been passed over by his royal grandfather in favor of Prince Viserys.

Daenerys Stormborn was anointed as Viserys III's heir. That much is clear from AGoT. She is repeatedly styled 'Princess of Dragonstone' prior to Viserys III's death, making it clear that Viserys III had anointed her as his immediate heir.

Aegon certainly could counter Dany's claim on the basis of her being female and all. But as you have already stated there is no proof that he is actually Rhaegar's son so everything he says isn't worth all that much. The same goes for anything Jon Snow says, too. Being a prince's son isn't the same as convincing the world that you are a prince's son, after all.

And I really don't see Jon Snow's parentage figuring into that debate at all. Jon Snow will never put forth a claim to the Iron Throne outside of the Targaryen context. Unless he is adopted into the Targaryen family by either Daenerys, Aegon, or Tyrion there is no chance that anybody is ever going to take his claim seriously.

Even if Jon plays a crucial role in defeating the Others - this is not the same as being universally recognized/accepted as a royal prince. Unless another Targaryen - and the Targaryen loyalist power base of that Targaryen - accepts him as one of his/her own, there is no chance that he can force himself on those people.

Jon Snow both lacks the Targaryen looks and the Targaryen connection. Just compare him to Aegon. Aegon looks like Rhaegar's son, and Aegon was raised by a well-known Targaryen loyalist. Jon Snow was raised by Ned Stark, a sworn enemy of both Prince Rhaegar and King Aerys II. And he doesn't look his father at all.

Even if Jon Snow had been raised by the Daynes (noted Targaryen loyalists) it would have been very difficult/all but impossible to convince a majority of the Realm that this guy was actually a Targaryen prince.

[Hos the Hostage]

At the time he advised Aegon, Tyrion was not expecting to be taken away from the Griffs. It was a win-win situation for him. If Aegon meets with Dany, he will see the truth in Tyrion's words (about how she is no simple maid waiting for a pretty prince), and grow to respect Tyrion. If by some off-chance they turned to Westeros, the political situation there was exactly as Tyrion explained to Aegon, the same situations that will enable Aegon to win the Throne now.  But then Tyrion had to go and get a whore.. maybe Lord Tywin was right about the dangers of Tyrion's whoring.

But yes, if Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany, he might regret advising Aegon. Also, before the Ironborn turned up to save the day, he might have hoped for Griff and the GC to come save Mereen to get Dany.

All the alliances are going to be messy now. Main characters are given difficult choices.

Aegon: (i) Marry Dany and displease Dorne (ii) Marry Margaery and displease Dorne, lose Dany and dragons (iii) Marry Arianne/Elia and lose Dany and her dragons. (iv) Marry Sansa and lose Dany and dragons.

Arianne (i) Marry Aegon and displease Dany (ii) Ally with Aegon and  marry Willas, but alienate Dany and dragons (iii) Ally with Dany (very very unlikely).

Dany (i) Marry Euron and displease everyone in Westeros (ii) Marry Aegon and be not sure if he is real deal or not (iii) Marry Trystane and make Aegon marry Sansa and Arianne marry Willas. (best case scenario for stable alliances and very unlikley to happen)

From the looks of it, Aegon is all set to get too far away from the dragon, like it happened in the cyvasse game with Tyrion. I thought Euron was a villain, but Arianne's view of the GC is not very promising either. And elephants won't help in a battle in the sea.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Hos the Hostage

[Hos the Hostage]

Show spoilers S6 leaked news about oncoming confrontation between Jaime and High Sparrow (the scene from trailer with its aftermath)

 

 

In the show, Jaime Lannister and Mace Tyrell confronts the High Sparrow with an army but no battle ensues, because Margaery has 'chosen the faith' (not sure what she did - it's not like she converted, she was already a follower of the Seven), and is freed by the High Sparrow. She is not punished like Cersei was. Could this imply that Margaery in the books will be freed as well?

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Hos the Hostage