[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

[HexMachina]

I want to point out that Arriane choosing to marry Aegon does not necessarily indicate she has not learned her lesson. Her fault was being careless before, not planning, not thinking through. If a Dornish alliance with Aegon seems particularly promising, then her sealing such an alliance by marriage is not necessarily her being reckless. She can fall for him as a "pretty boy" and still have learned her lesson. It's all about whether she thinks it through

[JonCon's Red Beard]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maar gives the creeps to both Jon Connington (who sees him as an effeminate caricature of his dead silver prince) and Arianne. That is not confirmation that men with Valyrian hair and eyes look strange, it is confirmation that the effeminate/affected manner of Lysono Maar is making people uncomfortable who don't know him. It is also not confirmation that he is lying. It just shows that the man exploits the impact his manner and looks have on people to his advantage.

Maar's existence kinda serve to define and characterise both Jon and Arianne better and contrast them with Dany. Jon not only thinks he's an oddball but he also comments how Varys isn't a "man" because he's an eunuch. And Arianne feeling disgusted by Maar is the opposite of Dany who feels very attracted by Daario, who isn't different. Dany also sees her Unsullied as people, and Jon think less of them.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@The Grey Wolf

I don't think Aegon cares about the things Elia has to offer. She is a young tomboy girl who is making out with stable boys. We have no clue that he is into that type of girl. But if he was he is going to take what is offered and discard her later on. Prince Aegon isn't Robb Stark, after all. He is not stupid. And there is no chance that Elia, Connington, or Arianne would support Aegon's weird decision of a bride. Elia should be very aware that Aegon marrying her instead of Arianne isn't going to win him the loyalty of Dorne. Neither Arianne nor Doran would be happy with that.

I think Aegon is a virgin. I mean, Duck and Haldon made it sound like Griff has a very strict policy of celibacy in their group. I'm sure there is no coincidence that when Tyrion said he would want to go to a brothel, Duck says "the lad would want to go". I'm not saying that Aegon is desperate to have sex, but if you put a horny teen next to another horny teen... that won't end up well.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

15 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I want to point out that Arriane choosing to marry Aegon does not necessarily indicate she has not learned her lesson. Her fault was being careless before, not planning, not thinking through. If a Dornish alliance with Aegon seems particularly promising, then her sealing such an alliance by marriage is not necessarily her being reckless. She can fall for him as a "pretty boy" and still have learned her lesson. It's all about whether she thinks it through

I agree with this. I mean, people are assuming that Arianne will see Aegon and see him "pretty" and jump into him because of such. She doesn't just like pretty boys: Darkstar and Aerys are not just "pretty": there is a some sort of "danger" element surround them. Darkstar is a warrior and Aerys is a member of the KG. Aegon is just a boy.

In any case, Arianne has already called him a "pet". To me, I think she believes him he's just a puppet and that Connington is pulling the strings, pretty or not. So, if she realises she HAS to marry him, she might, puppet or not.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

8 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Maar's existence kinda serve to define and characterise both Jon and Arianne better and contrast them with Dany. Jon not only thinks he's an oddball but he also comments how Varys isn't a "man" because he's an eunuch. And Arianne feeling disgusted by Maar is the opposite of Dany who feels very attracted by Daario, who isn't different. Dany also sees her Unsullied as people, and Jon think less of them.

 

I think Aegon is a virgin. I mean, Duck and Haldon made it sound like Griff has a very strict policy of celibacy in their group. I'm sure there is no coincidence that when Tyrion said he would want to go to a brothel, Duck says "the lad would want to go". I'm not saying that Aegon is desperate to have sex, but if you put a horny teen next to another horny teen... that won't end up well.

 

I think your putting them too close to each other.  While Dario dresses in a colorful way, no one mistakes him for a woman.  Putting their attire aside, Marr does not come off as a warrior either whereas Dario does so.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think your putting them too close to each other.  While Dario dresses in a colorful way, no one mistakes him for a woman.  Putting their attire aside, Marr does not come off as a warrior either whereas Dario does so.

We're seeing them through different perspectives. Maybe if Griff sees Daaario, he will also think that he looks like a woman because of all of the colours and the ornaments. Doesn't he also paint his nails?

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

We're seeing them through different perspectives. Maybe if Griff sees Daaario, he will also think that he looks like a woman because of all of the colours and the ornaments. Doesn't he also paint his nails?

 

It's possible, I guess for me I just assume their body type is much different.  If Dario is really a great warrior he should have broad shoulders and a narrow waist, where I picture Mar as a Mcjagger type build where he could conceivably be confused for a woman.  But someone with broad shoulders wearing a dirk and stiletto is probably unmistakably a guy.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't know why the focus is on whether Arianne would marry Aegon, I think the much bigger unknown is whether Aegon would marry Arriane.

Aegon and Connington knows about Dany and her dragons, and that eventually she's coming to Westeros, why would he marry Arrianne instead of waiting for Dany instead of setting up the chances for another Dance of Dragons.

Oh, because he needs the Martells, you say. Sure, he does, but where are the Martells going, are they going to back the Lannisters? Of course not, and is there not something else he can offer Dorne?  Myrcella is the heir to both Casterly Rock and the Stormlands.  Aegon could just offer to promise both the Westerlands and the Stormlands to Trystane through his marriage to Myrcella.  Doran is going to turn that down?

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

I don't know why the focus is on whether Arianne would marry Aegon, I think the much bigger unknown is whether Aegon would marry Arriane.

Aegon and Connington knows about Dany and her dragons, and that eventually she's coming to Westeros, why would he marry Arrianne instead of waiting for Dany instead of setting up the chances for another Dance of Dragons.

There is also the assumption of a marriage to join the Martells and Aegon, but that's not needed. Aegon is already the result of a Martell-Targaryen union. Asking for him to marry Arianne, is like asking Robb to marry a Tully girl for an alliance. He's already the son of a Tully: he doesn't need such. Aegon is the son of Elia Martell, nephew of Doran, that's all the alliance they need.

Just now, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Oh, because he needs the Martells, you say. Sure, he does, but where are the Martells going, are they going to back the Lannisters? Of course not, and is there not something else he can offer Dorne?  Myrcella is the heir to both Casterly Rock and the Stormlands.  Aegon could just offer to promise both the Westerlands and the Stormlands to Trystane through his marriage to Myrcella.  Doran is going to turn that down?

 

You're right but not about Myrcella. I'm sure Doran is aware of her being a bastard and never planned to marry her to Trystane. He was just making time. But yeah, there is much Aegon can still offer the Martells, specially revenge, which is what they want the most.

 

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

2 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is also the assumption of a marriage to join the Martells and Aegon, but that's not needed. Aegon is already the result of a Martell-Targaryen union. Asking for him to marry Arianne, is like asking Robb to marry a Tully girl for an alliance. He's already the son of a Tully: he doesn't need such. Aegon is the son of Elia Martell, nephew of Doran, that's all the alliance they need.

You're right but not about Myrcella. I'm sure Doran is aware of her being a bastard and never planned to marry her to Trystane. He was just making time. But yeah, there is much Aegon can still offer the Martells, specially revenge, which is what they want the most.

 

 

So what, it's about appearances. The Bolton's married fake Arya to get appearance of legitimacy to Winterfell, As long as Trystane and his progeny gets to rule, unless anyone can prove Myrcella's parentage it doesn't matter.

[Lord Varys]

54 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

if Illyrio did something as stupid as secretly order an agent, who could very likely go native, to kill his mark, I would take it as proof that he was stupid enough to give a rival a larger army and a head start ahead of his preferred claimant, so that his claimant could clean up the mess. 

But what is the purpose of Belwas, then? Why did he survive? Illyrio is not stupid and having a secret dagger at the throat of a potential is the kind of thing he would do. Perhaps Belwas doesn't even need a note. The guy might be more than he seems, or else Illyrio would never have trusted him with this mission. He might not even need an order to act but might decide to kill Dany as soon as he realizes she has become a threat to Aegon.

4 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Maar's existence kinda serve to define and characterise both Jon and Arianne better and contrast them with Dany. Jon not only thinks he's an oddball but he also comments how Varys isn't a "man" because he's an eunuch. And Arianne feeling disgusted by Maar is the opposite of Dany who feels very attracted by Daario, who isn't different. Dany also sees her Unsullied as people, and Jon think less of them.

I think Aegon is a virgin. I mean, Duck and Haldon made it sound like Griff has a very strict policy of celibacy in their group. I'm sure there is no coincidence that when Tyrion said he would want to go to a brothel, Duck says "the lad would want to go". I'm not saying that Aegon is desperate to have sex, but if you put a horny teen next to another horny teen... that won't end up well.

Lysono and Daario are very different, actually. Daario is a very manly man. He is more than a little bit flamboyant but the society he lives in and has grown up sees his type of behavior as manly. Daario is, after all, a very capable fighter.

Lysono Maar on the other hand looks and behaves like a woman. He does nothing to appear more manly (say, grow himself a beard) but instead highlights his feminine features by painting his finger nails (like a woman) and wearing all those earrings (like a woman). Unless we assume for no good reason that this all is an act there is a pretty good chance that Lysono likes playing the role of woman and even gets off on that. That more or less fits the definition of a transvestite.

I'm not sure whether Jon Connington is a closeted homosexual (there are subtle hints that he and Myles Toyne might have been lovers or had an affair) but he really isn't all that open about it. Lysono Maar most likely isn't into women, either, but Connington clearly has big problems with this kind of gay people. Those people exist in Westeros, too. Laenor Velaryon also was the effeminate gay guy, not caring about manly stuff but having a thing for handsome manly men (just as Rhaenyra did). Prince Daeron the Gay and his lover/partner on the other don't seem to have any particularly colorful tastes. They were both knights and into manly stuff, perhaps in a similar way as Renly and Loras were.

Varys, on the other hand, is an actor. Playing the role of woman most likely is the same thing for him as playing the role of the effeminate eunuch (which clearly is an act, too).

13 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I agree with this. I mean, people are assuming that Arianne will see Aegon and see him "pretty" and jump into him because of such. She doesn't just like pretty boys: Darkstar and Aerys are not just "pretty": there is a some sort of "danger" element surround them. Darkstar is a warrior and Aerys is a member of the KG. Aegon is just a boy.

In any case, Arianne has already called him a "pet". To me, I think she believes him he's just a puppet and that Connington is pulling the strings, pretty or not. So, if she realises she HAS to marry him, she might, puppet or not.

There is some truth to this, but the whole secret betrothal to Viserys has set Arianne's mind into motion. The wheels are turning and she is thinking about how the Quentyn-Dany thing might cost her what she once was supposed to have.

I agree that Young Griff most likely wouldn't have impressed Arianne all that much. But Prince Aegon Targaryen might. Aegon isn't featured all that much directly in the ADwD chapters dealing with him. That might change when we'll see him finally through the eyes of a woman. Tyrion thinks he looks like a maiden's dream, and if she sees him doing stuff of the sort she would expect from Oberyn or Darkstar she certainly would like that. Not to mention that Aegon actually is a very smart young man who should be able to be a very interesting person to talk to.

An idea that I've always entertained is that Myrcella might become Aegon's first queen. If they capture her and Lady Nym on their way to KL, then they cannot only use her as a hostage but as political tool. If Aegon marries Myrcella then only Tommen stands between them and the Iron Throne, and that obstacle is easily removed. As Aegon's queen Myrcella is likely to live as long as Jaehaera Targaryen, though.

It is correct that Arianne and Aegon should not have to marry - but it is still a pretty likely scenario that they will once they learn about Dany's alleged death. Assuming they have a thing for each other. If not, then there is no need for such a political marriage.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It's curious that her resentment of Quentyn hasn't abated, even though she now knows that she will be ruling Princess of Dorne after Doran.  My take on the situation is that her ambitions go further than Dorne.

I think Arianne isn't really ambitious per se, but that her ambition is an expression of her jealousy and resentment towards Quentyn. Those feelings run too deep. For years, her mother has been absent and her father distant, and she's developed this idea that her father loves Quentyn more than he does her. I wouldn't be surprised if those feelings predated her discovery of the apparent plan to disinherit her; certainly they must have been reinforced by the way Doran failed to react at her attempts to get his attention (e.g. humping Daemon Sand).

What will be interesting is how she reacts to the Quentyn storyline. I'm half-convinced that he's still alive, and if so, that could spell trouble. Say Quentyn rides back into Dorne atop a dragon: I predict Arianne won't take kindly to being outshined, especially in the eyes of her father (or so she imagines). She could well do something reckless to regain the #1 spot in daddy's heart.

And if Quentyn's really dead, it's still possible her resentments could return to cloud her judgment, perhaps if she becomes jealous of her father's outpouring of emotion. Of course, it's also possible that she will grow out of those feelings, in which case perhaps tragedy can be averted. (Or at least, she won't be the one to cause it.)

The cyclical nature of violence, and the difficulty, and importance, of breaking out of that cycle, is arguably a big theme of these books. (Preston Jacobs has much more on that, although it's probably too soon to say for sure.) What's extra tragic, or ironic, or whatever, then, is that it's partly Doran's thirst for vengeance that has messed up his daughter and potentially continued that cycle. Keeping Arianne in the dark and on the shelf may have been the best way to work at Tywin Lannister's downfall, but it's also given his daughter bone-deep emotional problems that could well lead to a fresh round of horror and tragedy.

Perhaps there's even a touch of foreshadowing in Doran's big speech:

"I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure. I take some small solace in knowing that he died a cruel death at the hands of the monster that he himself begot."

-- "The Princess in the Tower", AFFC

It hearkens back to something Tyrion said:

"It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads."

-- Tyrion X, ASOS

If you like, there's a poem that says it pithier.

[Hos the Hostage]

34 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

We're seeing them through different perspectives. Maybe if Griff sees Daaario, he will also think that he looks like a woman because of all of the colours and the ornaments. Doesn't he also paint his nails?

 

Daario has a warrior's physique, but Lysono has a whore's. Nevertheless, I could never fathom how Dany could love him with the braided blue beard, yellow clothes and the golden teeth. 

Looking forward to a drawing where Arianne tells a miffed Griff that "your mother would be ashamed".

Edited May 12, 2016 by Hos the Hostage

[Northernmonkey]

27 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is also the assumption of a marriage to join the Martells and Aegon, but that's not needed. Aegon is already the result of a Martell-Targaryen union. Asking for him to marry Arianne, is like asking Robb to marry a Tully girl for an alliance. He's already the son of a Tully: he doesn't need such. Aegon is the son of Elia Martell, nephew of Doran, that's all the alliance they need.

But there's the question of legitimacy. Marrying Faegon to the heir to Dorne would instantly dispel any doubts as to whether he was the real thing or not. It could be a powerful tool in recruiting forces to his side.

And although technically Faegon shouldn't need to marry Arianne to get Dorne's support, it would still be a risk to actually snub her. Who knows if her or Doran would take it personally?

Edited May 12, 2016 by northernmonkey

[RoamingRonin]

54 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I want to point out that Arriane choosing to marry Aegon does not necessarily indicate she has not learned her lesson. Her fault was being careless before, not planning, not thinking through. If a Dornish alliance with Aegon seems particularly promising, then her sealing such an alliance by marriage is not necessarily her being reckless. She can fall for him as a "pretty boy" and still have learned her lesson. It's all about whether she thinks it through

Her flaw is that she acts on misinformation. She thinks she knows what's going on but she never knows the full story. This is one of her thoughts from the sample chapter: 

I pray Daenerys treats him him more gently than she did her own brother.

She seems to believe Dany had Viserys killed which is wrong. She may believe Dany is also responsible for Quentyn's death which would also be wrong. If all of her misconceptions about Daenerys encourages her to marry Aegon and join his rebellion then no, she hasn't learned anything.  

When she hears Quentyn was killed by a dragon, she should wait for more information. It's what Doran would do. I don't see her being patient, however. 

[Hos the Hostage]

Griff knows nothing of the Quentyn plot, and thinks that Dorne will support Aegon for free (like how most of the Riverlands supported Robb). Quentyn dying has at least removed the competition for Dany (between Aegon and the Dornish). Most lords in Westeros will support Aegon whether he has proof of his identity, because right now, anything is better than the "Baratheons". But what will JonCon have to offer Arianne and Dorne in return for their support? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, illrede said:

I think it's less about Aegon and more about Dorne; I don't rate the chances of an Aegon/Daenerys rapprochement highly in any case, once each got it into their heads to sit the throne and Aegon decided that he wasn't go to be a junior partner. What it serves to do is set up how it is that Dorne- which was ready and waiting for Daeneys' claim to be put forward- ends up on the side of the Mummer's Dragon, making a proper Dance of it.

But will all of Dorne follow Martell? I suspect Yronwood and Dayne will lead a handful of Dornish houses into Daenerys's camp. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This was never about legal prattle. Daenerys Targaryen is the last legitimate scion of House Targaryen in the eyes of the world. Any secret or hidden Targaryens (like Jon, Aegon, or Tyrion) play in different leagues because nobody knew about their existence until very recently (or not at all).

Dany may decide that Aegon is not her brother's son because there is no proof that he is Rhaegar's son - and she has no reason to believe that he is the real deal. She doesn't even have to enter into Blackfyre conspiracy territory for that.

In addition, Dany was the chosen and anointed heir of her brother, King Viserys III, who in turn had been the chosen and anointed heir of her late father, Aerys II. If she wants to play the legal game she can proclaim that Prince Aegon lost his claim to the Iron Throne for good when her father named Viserys his heir.

Secret/hidden princes are political non-entities. It is not Dany's fault (or the world's fault) that Prince Aegon was raised in obscurity. History and reality made Daenerys Targaryen the last scion of House Targaryen and - from her point of view - the rightful Queen of Westeros. She is not going to give that up.

Note that nobody styles or addresses Prince Aegon as 'King Aegon VI Targaryen'. He is no king yet. Nobody has crowned or anointed him, and neither was named Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne.

But I'd also say that right now Dany has no reason to oppose Aegon or see him as her enemy. I think she'll will show signs to compromize at first. This is going to be a slippery slope, not a scenario in which friends and enemies are clear from the beginning. Dany owes Illyrio and Varys for the dragons. That is a fact. And she feels that way, too. She most certainly won't give up the Iron Throne but I guess she would be willing to enter into a political marriage of some sort. A deal to share the power. And it will not matter whether Aegon is Rhaegar's son, a Blackfyre, or a complete fake. Getting power through or with Aegon surely will be preferable to war. Only if that's rejected (and she is actually physicially attacked/betrayed) will she decide begin a war.

But any escalation scenario between Dany-Aegon has to go with the assumption that Aegon is pretty much in charge of all/most of the Realm. Else his faction will be glad for Dany's help/assistance/support when she comes and not see her as a threat. Tyrion is going to see how he fucked himself with his advice to Aegon if Aegon neither failed nor is in need of Dany's assistance but has no longer any use for either of them...

 

I love it when you and I agree. I would take it one step further, though and suggest that this is the root of the three treason she will know: 1) Illyrio for blood (Blackfyre); 2) Tyrion for all the gold of Casterly Rock; and 3) Aegon for love (Arianne? Sansa?) 

[Astromech]

13 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

 A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene's mother.

But there is no mention of Oldtown, only crossing the Mander, which you don't cross traveling from Dorne to Oldtown. It is mentioned Obara's mother was a whore from Oldtown, but no mention of Tyene's mother other than her being a septa and Arianne crossing the Mander with three cousins to visit Tyene's mother.

Even if Tyene's mother was from Oldtown, I don't see how that necessarily debunks the minor theory of Lemore = Tyene's mother. The best debunk of that theory is the hair color of Oberyn, Lemore and Tyene. But even that can be explained by dye. Now, if Arianne encounters Septa Lemore, we'll know if she is Tyene's mother or not. Of course, most of these theories are more results of wandering minds during the between-book years and there probably isn't much to most of them. But speculation is fun.

I kind of like the idea of Oberyn running around and sleeping with whomever to establish an information network across Westeros and Essos. Pillow talk diplomacy and spycraft.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Astromech

[Astromech]

23 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Griff knows nothing of the Quentyn plot, and thinks that Dorne will support Aegon for free (like how most of the Riverlands supported Robb). Quentyn dying has at least removed the competition for Dany (between Aegon and the Dornish). Most lords in Westeros will support Aegon whether he has proof of his identity, because right now, anything is better than the "Baratheons". But what will JonCon have to offer Arianne and Dorne in return for their support? 

A  possible Targaryen/Martell on the Iron Throne. Even if Aegon is a pretender, few would know, just like Jamie and Cersei's children thought to be Baratheons

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Rowan looks fit to gag when Tywin lies about the deaths of Rhaegar's children. 

He also laments that the Stark chose to let Jaime Lannister live

Wait... Rowan laments this? Could you kindy provide the quote or location in the books?