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[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

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Was there any detail about the CotF drawings in the cave Ella finds. Since they are no longer a myth but real and playing a part in events in the north, are they active in the south or is there some prophecy in the drawings. it seems an odd time to just wander across such things if they aren't significant to current events - possible Summerhall link mentioned above?

Those drawings seem to be just one of the elements GRRM adds do the story to let us know a little more about the culture and history of Westeros.The Children of the Forest know that their time in Westeros is running out,as it's explained in aDwD when they are compared to giant wolves and lions.I think that right now the Children just wish to leave the Weirwoods,Bran and Bloodraven as their legacy in this world.

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One little thing: In a ASoS, Robert (and Stannis, and Renly)'s grand father, Lord Estermont, was still alive. We see him at Joffrey's wedding. In AFfC, the lordship seems to have passed to Eldon Estermont, Stannis' uncle. Should I conclude that the elderly Lord has died quietly? It's important, since the there are Estermonts in Storm's End and the Golden Company has just taken the Estermonts of Greenstone as prisoners. Havind the old Lord as hostage could prove useful to take the castle.

Besides the Estermonts proper, the prisoners would include a character to watch: Eldon's new wife and Arianne old friend, Sylva, née Santagar, aka Spotted Sylva.

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One little thing: In a ASoS, Robert (and Stannis, and Renly)'s grand father, Lord Estermont, was still alive. We see him at Joffrey's wedding. In AFfC, the lordship seems to have passed to Eldon Estermont, Stannis' uncle. Should I conclude that the elderly Lord has died quietly? It's important, since the there are Estermonts in Storm's End and the Golden Company has just taken the Estermonts of Greenstone as prisoners. Havind the old Lord as hostage could prove useful to take the castle.

Besides the Estermonts proper, the prisoners would include a character to watch: Eldon's new wife and Arianne old friend, Sylva, née Santagar, aka Spotted Sylva.

I don't think this is such an important question,it seems to me that for the Golden Company to take the Stormlands won't be a problem,since there are houses such as Dondarrion that were never too fond of the Lannister kings.The main question is the takeover of Storm's End hurting Stannis' pride,since now he lost the two castles he could call home (Dragonstone AND Storm's End),and as we saw with Robb,a king who loses their home isn't a victorious king.

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I don't think we know what he thought about Robb - he may well have regretted the death of an enemy of the Lannisters.

Baratheon did not start the war anymore than Stark, Arryn and especially the Targaryens themselves did. What started it was Aerys' demands for the heads of Robert and Ned, remember?

More to the point though, the Baratheons did not balk when the Lannisters had Elia and her children killed (the Starks did, though Doran may or may not know that - through the Daynes maybe, or "friends" at court). Stannis also was in charge of the fleet sent to capture (or kill?) Viserys and Daenerys, shortly after the war. He's not a natural ally for Doran.

However, Doran also looks at Connington with suspicion (probably justified, considering Varys' and Illyrio's hands in events).

Technically, Rhaegar's mysterious capture of Lyanna was the ultimate cause of the fall of House Targaryen. Rickard and Brandon Stark demanded her return, and Aerys tortured them to death for "treason." Then, after Rickard and Brandon's executions, Robert raised the Stormlands and Ned summoned the North against Targaryen, Martell, and Tyrell. It all began with Rhaegar and Lyanna, however.

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Does anybody know how much of a force the GC left at Griffin's Roost? Or if they split forces and held a reserve behind at another castle they took?

I can see Connington ambushing the Tyrell force like mentioned earlier only to then fall back on Storms End as the Tyrell force pursues just to be stuck between Storms End and the reserves that would cut off their supply train and box them in. That is considering it is a large enough force they can't outright defeat in the field and no one turns cloak.

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Getting back to the question of a Tyrell-YG alliance, I think people aren't taking the chronology into consideration. At the moment, YG is king of a good portion of the Stormlands, and backed primarily by exiles who haven't been in the Seven Kingdoms for decades, if at all. Those stormlords who follow him do so primarily under duress. Aegon's Targaryen parentage is under serious question (for good reason). Why would Mace Tyrell look at this motley crew and think, "That's the coming power in the Seven Kingdoms"? There's no reason.

Meanwhile, Aegon's primary goal is keep the rebellion going until Daenerys shows up. Ten thousand swords will not suffice in the long run, not unless Aegon wants to stay under siege all that time. He needs to make alliances now, and the best one available to him is in Dorne. We've been told that Doran is skeptical of Aegon's chances, which fits his personality, so it's not true--as some people in the previous thread assumed--that Dorne will just fall into his lap. Doran will need to be wooed, and the best way to do that is with a marriage pledge to Arianne. (Even then, I suspect that Doran won't pull the trigger unless Aegon prevails against the Tyrell host.)

Is that short-signted? To an extent, but Aegon needs to prevail against the Tyrells now; considerations about Arianne's fitness to be queen, or alternative alliances that might be made under different circumstances, are necessarily secondary. In a similar situation, Robb agreed to marry a Frey. And in his mind, it may not even preclude a marriage to Daenerys: did not another Aegon conquer Westeros with three dragons and two wives?

And regardless of whether Aegon marries Arianne, that makes it harder for him to win over the Tyrells, who are virulently anti-Dornish in the best of times. Mace is hardly likely to see a half-Dornish king with a Dornish court as a potential friend. (And regardless, there's no indication that Mace is the kind of man who would bloodlessly throw one ally overboard in favor of another; in fact, we're told that he's quite stubborn when he sets his mind to something, and cannot be swayed by anybody. Olenna might be willing to reject Tommen, but she hates the Dornish as much as anybody else in the Reach.)

Re: Randyll Tarly, people are forgetting what Kevan said about him in AFFC: he is, above all, loyal to his superiors. He stuck by Mace Tyrell on the losing side of the rebellion, he was one of the Renly loyalists who refused to side with Stannis, and he has no reason to switch now that he's received an increase in his land and a council position.

In any case, neither Randyll Tarly nor Mace Tyrell have been terribly subtle plotters, so I don't know why we shouldn't just take their statements in the epilogue at face value: they think that Jon Connington is no real threat, and that he'll be easily defeated when the time comes.

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Good points. The Golden Company is strong enough to storm of few castles. But It can not be more than a diversion without allies. Jon Connington has expectations, but no allies are guaranteed at the moment, it seems.

I have gathered hints that the Volantenes are probably manipulating the Golden Company and that the large Volantene fleet that everybody expects in Meereen has left for an entirely different destination: See The strange and subtle Elephants of the Golden Company.

Edited by Bran Vras

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Good points. The Golden Company is strong enough to storm of few castles. But It can not be more than a diversion without allies. Jon Connington has expectations, but no allies are guaranteed at the moment, it seems.

I expect that to change fairly quickly, though. Contrary to what some people theorized on this thread, it seems to me that the Tyrell forces going to attack Jon Connington will be quite small (relatively speaking, of course). Randyll Tarly and Mace Tyrell already considered Jon Connington a minor threat while Kevan was alive; and with Kevan dead, the big concerns will have more to do with disorder within King's Landing or hostilities from the Lannister forces, not some rebel lord that nobody remembers. So the Tyrells will want to keep the bulk of their forces at KL to keep the peace, sending out a token force to oppose JC ... which I expect JC to defeat, creating the impression that Aegon is there to stay and giving him legitimacy in the eyes of people like Doran Martell.

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Is that short-signted? To an extent, but Aegon needs to prevail against the Tyrells now; considerations about Arianne's fitness to be queen, or alternative alliances that might be made under different circumstances, are necessarily secondary. In a similar situation, Robb agreed to marry a Frey. And in his mind, it may not even preclude a marriage to Daenerys: did not another Aegon conquer Westeros with three dragons and two wives?

I had similar thought before but I still wonder at how Quentyn's fate will factor into this equation. News of his death are not likely to reach Dorne in the foreseeable future so perhaps Doran might finally make the risky move and force a marriage alliance onto Aegon with the hope in mind that Quentyn will end up marrying Daenerys, if he hasn't already, which ties the Martells to the Targaryens completely. I suppose then that Aegon can simply hide his true intentions on that end and let Arianne and Doran keep believing in the double marriage alliance (although, you would think he might be concerned about the possibility of Daenerys marrying Quentyn, not knowing anything about the latter or his fate). Or, alternatively, perhaps I'm putting too much thought into this and Arianne is simply able to seduce Aegon into what will end up being a poor decision.

Still, I can see how this set-up provides excellent dramatic tension down the road. Here is Arianne and Doran Martell, believing in this phantom double marriage alliance that will never come to be; here is Aegon 'Targaryen,' hoping to be the new Aegon the Conquerer, two wives and all, and expecting Daenerys to accept him; and here is Daenerys Targaryen, with Quentyn's bones in hand, no marriage alliance, three dragons, and looking out for a "mummer's dragon."

Edited by Faint

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Off topic, but I wonder if the Damphair chapter confirms the speculation that he was molested by Euron as a child. Yikes.

I think I remember Tommen almost telling Jaime at Tywin's funeral that he was molested by Joffrey. Its also just speculation tho, but I wouldn't put something like that past Joff any more than I would Euron.

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I think I remember Tommen almost telling Jaime at Tywin's funeral that he was molested by Joffrey. Its also just speculation tho, but I wouldn't put something like that past Joff any more than I would Euron.

WHAT?!!!I Can someone pls tell me where I can find hints that Aeron was molested by Euron.

And if the Tyrells are going to support Aegon like many suspects,then that would be the end of Tommen.I'm sure Olena and Margaery would dispose Tommen immediately after knowing Aegon is alive so that Margaery can marry Aegon.

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And if the Tyrells are going to support Aegon like many suspects,then that would be the end of Tommen.I'm sure Olena and Margaery would dispose Tommen immediately after knowing Aegon is alive so that Margaery can marry Aegon.

Leaving aside the weird idea that Aegon would appear more viable than the Lannisters, who can offer three times the swords of the Golden Company plus a pliable child-king... I'd think that having Tommen killed would make it much, much harder for them to form alliances with anybody else, simply because they'd demonstrate themselves to be untrustworthy amoral opportunists who (this being the crucial part) would just as easily turn on Aegon if the need should arise.

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I've started a reread, am on aGoT. Have been watching for the tapestries. So far at least FOUR GoT chapters reference these tapestries, They are favorite hunting tapestries of Roberts. Depicting hunting scenes from Lys, Qorthos, etc...(dont have book with me am not recalling exactly) places across the sea,

The tapestries are listed from 3 places, 2 of the 3 are the same as places Willem Darry hid Dany and Vis before he died. The household that was Targ freindly where the "Lady" death happend was the Darry household. These are facts I can find to quote from.

Now without double checking, I seem to remember a Jaime/Cersei recollection of them having sex at this Darry household with Robert passed out nearby? And wasnt there a reference of blank walls where some tapestrys once hung there? I am waiting to get to this again on the reread to confrim. If I am remembering this correctly, I think Robert took these tapestries from the Darrys, cause he liked them and hes king. I submit maybe Willem D sent these home to his Darry house as souveniers from his exile with the Targ kiddies.

Sigh. There's more than one set of tapestries in all of Westeros, you know. Most if not all castles probably have a few. Most not terribly memorable, and most probably depicting the resident house's coat of arms and heroic figures from its past.

The tapestries that were found in the Darry house were NOT the same tapestries that Robert liked. Remember, Robert had a hatred for all Targaryens (despite his grandmother being one). He wouldn't want a bunch of tapestries with dragons and heroic Targaryen kings on them. Robert would've destroyed those tapestries rather than hang them in his castle.

Remember that Cersei had actually wanted to marry Rhaegar Targaryen before he was married off to Elia Martell and took Stark as a mistress. Tywin forced her to marry Robert, which didn't please her overmuch. Her deciding to get rid of some Targaryen-promoting tapestries once Robert's dead makes absolutely no sense. She hated those (hunting, not Targaryen) tapestries for two reasons. They were tacky and in poor taste. And mostly because Robert loved them.

The goofy tapestry theory seems to pop up once or twice a month here. It's got no grounding in fact. There's (at least) two different sets of tapestries in Westeros. Just because the author wrote about them both doesn't mean they are one and the same.

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Leaving aside the weird idea that Aegon would appear more viable than the Lannisters, who can offer three times the swords of the Golden Company plus a pliable child-king... I'd think that having Tommen killed would make it much, much harder for them to form alliances with anybody else, simply because they'd demonstrate themselves to be untrustworthy amoral opportunists who (this being the crucial part) would just as easily turn on Aegon if the need should arise.

Yep, I think there is 0 chance of Tarly shifting allegiances to Aegon.

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Yep, I think there is 0 chance of Tarly shifting allegiances to Aegon.

Well, it will depend upon whether Lord Randyll is leading the Tyrell army on its way to invest Storm's End. If Connington and the GC are successful in their ambush and able to capture Tarly, Aegon and Connington can began to make their case (including offering Lord Tarly Lordship over the Reach). A great lord is always ambitious if nothing else.

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Just go to Youtube and listen, Martin can really spin a yarn!

I think you are mixing up the Arianne chapter with the Victarion chapter.There is no video or transcript for the Arianne chapter.

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