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[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

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14 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

A good question. To me, it's not that the Septons don't believe in other Gods, it's that they think the Faith of the Seven is the only "true" religion, and the others are "false gods." That doesn't mean they don't exist, they just aren't really "gods"

 

13 hours ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

 

Pretty much this, I was starting to type something similar, then I remembered I barely post here anymore and can't be bothered to type long posts.

thank you so much both  for clearing this out to me !!!!  it might sound nerdy but it tormented me a lot lol !!!!!! now it finally makes sense !!!!!! :) 

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16 minutes ago, Tania said:

 

thank you so much both  for clearing this out to me !!!!  it might sound nerdy but it tormented me a lot lol !!!!!! now it finally makes sense !!!!!! :) 

There are probably heresies within the Faith of the Seven.

In The Sworn Sword, Egg claims that Lady Webber has sold her soul to the Lord of the Seven Hells, a character who doesn't feature in any religious discussions in the main series.  Presumably, he's the Westerosi equivalent of the Devil, but one can't be sure.

Some Septons are monotheists (holding that the Seven are manifestations of one God) others are polytheists (holding that there are Seven Gods).  Quite possibly, some of the latter also believe in the existence of other Deities.

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The followers of the Faith are most likely not monotheists in our understanding but practice in a form of monolatrism - meaning that they only worship the Seven (either as one god with seven faces or seven individual gods) but do not deny the existence and power of other gods. The very formula of 'the old gods and the new' acknowledges that pretty much everybody in Westeros recognizes the old gods as gods.

There might be extreme views in which the old gods, the Ironborn gods, and some foreign gods are seen as demons rather than gods but that seems to be a minority point of view (at least until recently). We have to keep in mind that even in the days before the Conquest when the Andals ruled the South there were little to no crusades or campaigns against the remaining followers of the old gods, apparently especially not in those kingdoms where the First Men royalty remained in control.

And what we learn about the origins of the High Septon makes it clear that this office was only created after the Faith had reached and taken root at Oldtown - which was considerably late during the Andal conquest - so the power of the High Septon and the Faith Militant throughout the entirety of the Andal kingdoms in the years before and after the Targaryen Conquest was most likely a relatively new thing, but nonetheless a reality. But by that time the rulers of the Faith no longer seemed to have had any issues in principle with the remains of the old religion in the South. Especially not with the weirwood trees in the godswoods. I mean, the fact that the Three Singers stand to this day in the godswood of Highgarden confirm that there was never a religious war fought in the Reach.

But I digress. I think there is no reason not to assume that a septon (who might have known that he himself was a First Man descended if he was highborn) would acknowledge the existence of other gods. Especially not such gods who feature in one of the founding legends of Westeros itself.

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Has anyone else noticed the Euron hints in this chapter? 

1. The septon mentioned the 'stolen' daughter of two gods, which are the stormgod and the seagod respectively. If I remember correctly. Who believe in those 2 gods? The ironborn! 

2. Lysono Maar is a strange and exotic figure wearing lots of jewellery who surrounds himself by what appear to be mutes. Now who else surrounds himself by weird, exotic looking people and mutes? Our dear friend Euron! 

I know this is a bit crackpot, but it stood out to me. Euron could have found some long forgotten info on capturing Storm's End, and lysono might be the reason why Aegon actually managed to capture the impregnable place. Haldon halfmaester seems surprised they don't know it yet,  which seems to imply that Lysono must have known already. 

The question is: why would Euron have someone infiltrate the Golden Company,  and support Aegon if he's after marrying Dany? I believe he might want to prepare the path for Dany by establishing the first Targ territories in Westeros, only to have Aegon killed (by Lysono) later,  and take over his supporters with Dany. 

Aegon supporters cannot go back to supporting the Lannisters or Tyrells so easily after joining a Targ, because of treason,  so joining another Targ would be the safer option. 

 

I know this is all highly speculative, but it doesn't seem entirely unlikely,  and since Lysono must be working for somebody (must be, because both Arianne and Jon feel uneasy about him) and because Arianne thinks so explicitly about storm and seagod, Euron seems a likely candidate.

Now I wonder why the storm and seagod never reach Dorne... 

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@Manderly's Rat Cook

That doesn't make much sense because Lysono Maar apparently had nothing to do with the capture of Storm's End. If he had been there he wouldn't have met Arianne halfway on the road. Not to mention that he didn't seem to be at Griffin's Roost yet back in 'The Griffin Reborn' so he might have been with a contingent of sellswords that only just recently made its way to Griffin's Roost.

I think Euron had no idea that Aegon even existed. But he might be able to use Aegon's campaign to his own advantage because it will inevitably weaken his opponents and allow him to grow stronger and recruit more people to his cause while his enemies are fighting each other.

If Euron destroys the Redwyne fleet then pretty much all the southern coasts of Westeros (and perhaps even Dorne's) are his. Whether he can transform that control over land into loyalty/armies is another matter. 

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The followers of the Faith are most likely not monotheists in our understanding but practice in a form of monolatrism - meaning that they only worship the Seven (either as one god with seven faces or seven individual gods) but do not deny the existence and power of other gods. The very formula of 'the old gods and the new' acknowledges that pretty much everybody in Westeros recognizes the old gods as gods.

There might be extreme views in which the old gods, the Ironborn gods, and some foreign gods are seen as demons rather than gods but that seems to be a minority point of view (at least until recently). We have to keep in mind that even in the days before the Conquest when the Andals ruled the South there were little to no crusades or campaigns against the remaining followers of the old gods, apparently especially not in those kingdoms where the First Men royalty remained in control.

And what we learn about the origins of the High Septon makes it clear that this office was only created after the Faith had reached and taken root at Oldtown - which was considerably late during the Andal conquest - so the power of the High Septon and the Faith Militant throughout the entirety of the Andal kingdoms in the years before and after the Targaryen Conquest was most likely a relatively new thing, but nonetheless a reality. But by that time the rulers of the Faith no longer seemed to have had any issues in principle with the remains of the old religion in the South. Especially not with the weirwood trees in the godswoods. I mean, the fact that the Three Singers stand to this day in the godswood of Highgarden confirm that there was never a religious war fought in the Reach.

But I digress. I think there is no reason not to assume that a septon (who might have known that he himself was a First Man descended if he was highborn) would acknowledge the existence of other gods. Especially not such gods who feature in one of the founding legends of Westeros itself.

Religious tolerance seems quite widespread in Westeros, although I wonder if it's a general principle, or more the case that each lord determines what religion is followed in his own realm (or allows complete tolerance in his own realm).

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@Lord Varys

I agree that Lysono's involvement in the capturing of Storm's End is a bit far farfetched. However,  I don't think Euron's involvement is. We don't know how much he does or doesn't know about anything,  only that he might have some sort of foresight,  or wizards. 

Euron could also want lysono to find something in Storm's End,  if indeed there is a connection. We know he's interested in magical items. 

I've seen a lot of people speculate about whether or not a septon would believe in other gods,  but I think the point of that passage is the mentioning of the storm and the sea God, and link Lysono (or something else in this chapter) to (probably) the ironborn. 

That also places Doran's question -why these storms never reached Dorne - in a different perspective. The ironborn never had much interest in raiding Dorne,  but there might also be a more magical protection against the more magical ironborn aspects; sea and storm. 

Edit: Euron (or someone else) might also have had lysono infiltrate in the Golden Company without any knowledge of Aegon. It was known for quite some time that they were waiting for something. Anyone with that knowledge,  who's smart enough, would like to have a spy there. 

Edited by Manderly's Rat Cook

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27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Religious tolerance seems quite widespread in Westeros, although I wonder if it's a general principle, or more the case that each lord determines what religion is followed in his own realm (or allows complete tolerance in his own realm).

Well The Targs, Starks, Martells, Tyrells and Baratheons seem to tolerate every religion in their respective domains. There are septons up north, Red Priests in Oldtown and KL, etc.

The Greyjoys/IB seem to be the most intolerant. Balon and other Kings kicked the Septons out of the country.

It is odd that the faith of seven is very unified, there are no schisms or antipopes or anything like that. Which is kind of unbelievable. If the faith of 7 is the westerosi version of roman catholicism, Where are the Westerosi equivalents to the prostestants, the cathars, the greek-orthodox, etc.

Edited by Bironic

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36 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Well The Targs, Starks, Martells, Tyrells and Baratheons seem to tolerate every religion in their respective domains. There are septons up north, Red Priests in Oldtown and KL, etc.

The Greyjoys/IB seem to be the most intolerant. Balon and other Kings kicked the Septons out of the country.

It is odd that the faith of seven is very unified, there are no schisms or antipopes or anything like that. Which is kind of unbelievable. If the faith of 7 is the westerosi version of roman catholicism, Where are the Westerosi equivalents to the prostestants, the cathars, the greek-orthodox, etc.

I suppose you could argue that the Sparrow movement and the Faith Militant demonstrates a bit of a schism within the Faith. The Faith Militant is very strict in its interpretation and adherence to their religion whereas you have other member of the Faith (discounting those who are corrupt for a moment) who simply try to embody the spirit of the Faith, like Meribald. It's not exactly what you were talking about of course, but it's something.

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36 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

@Lord Varys

I agree that Lysono's involvement in the capturing of Storm's End is a bit far farfetched. However,  I don't think Euron's involvement is. We don't know how much he does or doesn't know about anything,  only that he might have some sort of foresight,  or wizards. 

Euron could also want lysono to find something in Storm's End,  if indeed there is a connection. We know he's interested in magical items. 

I've seen a lot of people speculate about whether or not a septon would believe in other gods,  but I think the point of that passage is the mentioning of the storm and the sea God, and link Lysono (or something else in this chapter) to (probably) the ironborn. 

That also places Doran's question -why these storms never reached Dorne - in a different perspective. The ironborn never had much interest in raiding Dorne,  but there might also be a more magical protection against the more magical ironborn aspects; sea and storm. 

Edit: Euron (or someone else) might also have had lysono infiltrate in the Golden Company without any knowledge of Aegon. It was known for quite some time that they were waiting for something. Anyone with that knowledge,  who's smart enough, would like to have a spy there. 

Foreshadowing. They're going to meet, more than meet. JC's greyscale has to work its way to Euron to turn his lips grey. Probably sexually, JC -> Daemon -> Arianne -> Euron. There's grey lipped Euron dreaming of flying but will never know unless he takes the leap from a tower. On the other side is Arianne, the princess in the tower, set to burn brighter than any man with her friend Garin who she fears will jump from a tower. And to lock it all together is a stone beast taking flight from a smoking tower.

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Did anyone think Arianne is sending to many ravens. I fear she will need to tell her father something urgently, but have no  raven left. Perhaps Elia will use the last one to sent a fake massage to Doran. She is on good terms with feathers....

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6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I suppose you could argue that the Sparrow movement and the Faith Militant demonstrates a bit of a schism within the Faith. The Faith Militant is very strict in its interpretation and adherence to their religion whereas you have other member of the Faith (discounting those who are corrupt for a moment) who simply try to embody the spirit of the Faith, like Meribald. It's not exactly what you were talking about of course, but it's something.

That's true.

4 hours ago, Rogue Leader said:

Did anyone think Arianne is sending to many ravens. I fear she will need to tell her father something urgently, but have no  raven left. Perhaps Elia will use the last one to sent a fake massage to Doran. She is on good terms with feathers....

I had a similar thought. Is there a mention of how many ravens Feathers has taken on the trip?

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2. Lysono Maar is a strange and exotic figure wearing lots of jewellery who surrounds himself by what appear to be mutes. Now who else surrounds himself by weird, exotic looking people and mutes? Our dear friend Euron!

And our dear friend Varys.

 

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4 hours ago, Artas said:

And our dear friend Varys.

 

I have considered Varys, because Lysono Maar reminds me strongly of him. He doesn't seem to be Varys though. Varys is generally described as being plump, and I don't recognise that in the description of lysono. I don't think it would be Varys in disguise either,  seems Varys seems to prefer dressing up as rather unnoticeable creatures. Besides that, Varys' disguises seem to conceal his identity a bit, but aren't faceless men good. If people take a second look at him they generally recognise him,  which is probably why he dresses up as unnoticeable characters. In this disguise JonCon, being Aerys' former hand would definitely have recognised him. 

I don't think he's one of Varys ' spies either, since he doesn't fit into the little birds network idea. He might (a big MIGHT)be an ex little bird, a big bird so to say,  but I don't think he'd be do obvious then. 

In my opinion the only thing that could link him toVarys, is that he could possibly be a eunuch, but at the moment I can't really see the purpose of that either, and not every effeminate guy is a eunuch of course. 

He's probably from Lys though,  like Varys, but that still doesn't make him Varys, or means there's a connection. Except for the Varys vibe he has about him there are no real Varys hints.

I'm certain Varys has spies in the Golden Company though, I just don't think lysono is one of them. 

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Bloody hell, you don't check in for two days and this thing just keeps going and going!

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 7:25 PM, TheReal_Rebel said:

From what I gleen  from the chapter so far, Arrianne is  way in over her head and has stumbled into becoming Connington's hostage...

[...]

Why doesn't Arrianne see that?

Others have pointed out why she probably won't be taken Arianne hostage, so I'll just say that if she is, it's more Doran's fault than hers. The risk, such as it is, was apparent from the get-go, and he's the one giving orders and pushing chess pieces around and shit. It would be more evidence that he sucks.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 8:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Lannister men and assets are in the West - which is the reason why I think Cersei will jump on any chance to leave KL as soon as possible...

Ooh, great idea! That would be a great way for us to see Casterly Rock, and would also be a great opportunity for Cersei's story to develop. Let's face it, if she stays in King's Landing for the rest of the story, she's basically going to be scheming and ambitious until somebody kills her. If she goes home, though, she might have the chance to accept defeat and grow as a character, or perhaps to reckon with her history. There's been a lot in the story about the Lannister family, and about how Tywin's poisonous fatherhood doomed them all from the start. It somehow makes sense for at least one of the Lannister children to come full circle on that.

It also sets her up for certain theories to play out, i.e. Tyrion could retake Casterly Rock, perhaps by flooding the sewers and drowning the inhabitants, just like his hated father did at Castemere all those years ago. That would complete his downfall, as he becomes the same villain his father was, while also enabling Cersei to have the life choked out of her by the valonqar. Juicy!

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 8:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't see the Dornish army in the Prince's Pass attack the Reach or Highgarden... The Dornish army might instead come to help the Reach fight against the Ironborn. That way Aegon could win the allegiance of the Reach by showing that he wants to be a king who protects his people. Like Stannis did at the Wall.

That would also be cool. GRRM does live his symmetries.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

The news about the destruction of the Redwyne fleet will have a major impact on Mace and Tarly, I'm sure. But that wouldn't cause them to abandon KL, I think, but rather cause them to rethink their overall allegiances. Regardless of the Margaery marriage/situation they will ask themselves whether an alliance with King Tommen or Prince Aegon will help them more to deal with Euron. And my guess is that even Mace might conclude that Aegon might a better bet than Tommen in such a scenario.

Hmm... I don't know about Tarly, but I can't see Mace joining with Aegon. It would render moot the mooted "friends in the reach". Not to mention, from Connington's perspective, Mace has now joined himself to the usurper. He may prefer to have those friends overthrow the Tyrells even if they propose to abandon Tommen.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

As to Cersei in KL without any opposition (for whatever unbelievable reason):

Having no enemies isn't the same as having friends. Just because Cersei has no enemies left doesn't mean people will follow or obey her. You have to have authority to command people. Does Cersei still have any such authority left? I don't think so. At least not in KL. And you have to keep in mind the power of the Faith. If the Tyrells were to leave KL the Faith Militant would become the dominant power in the city, not Cersei. And they most likely would not allow her to get in charge again regardless how well the trial went for her. Assuming it goes well.

I think you're underestimating Cersei's position here. Let's say she wins her trial. That means she's proven innocent, and there's no grounds to keep her from power. Optics matters: the trial will establish her legitimacy, and who'd have the balls to gainsay it? To disobey the legitimate Queen Regent is to break the law, which few people have the stomach for; to stymie her is to invite trouble from the still considerable Lannister forces. That they aren't in the immediate vicinity doesn't matter; they have the power to enforce some pretty gnarly consequences should anyone wound their liege lady. (Or is she the liege lord? I don't know how that works.)

The Faith Militant is still probably not so powerful as to be able to take the city against the remaining Lannisters and the City Watch (and if, as someone else speculated, Varys is controlling the goldcloaks, that means they'll be supporting Cersei for the time being). And the Tyrells would be crazy to provoke war with the Westerlands when the situation in the rest of Westeros is so fluid. It's a Lannister-Martell betrothal that keeps the Dornish in line, it's Lannister promises and threats that have subdued the Riverlands and the North; the Iron Islands are in open rebellion still, and the Vale's still unaccounted for. Not to mention that it's the supposed legitimacy of the Lannister scion that gives the Tyrells a route to the throne at all.

No, the Tyrells are pretty well yoked to the Lannisters, and the Faith's betting everything on the trial. If she wins, which seems likely, they'll both be forced to publicly accept her legitimacy.

But privately it will be a totally different matter. I see a scenario where both the Faith and the Tyrells are secretly trying to prove Cersei cheated the trial and/or murdered Kevan and Pycelle, while simultaneously, Cersei and her supporters are doing the opposite. Court intrigue could escalate quite dramatically in the near future; but seeing as how Varys will be helping Cersei at least some of the time, I'd say her chances of clinging to power are quite good.

Of course, it won't last long, but then, it doesn't need to. Varys just needs to buy Cersei time to do some more damage, and as Littlefinger remarked, she's capable of destroying things much quicker than anyone expected.

Speaking of whom, I think Littlefinger's the only wild card here. Does he involve himself in the King's Landing intrigues? Does he help Tyrell or Lannister? How does he feel about Aegon?

Having said all that, I do think there's a possibility that the Faith could take King's Landing, perhaps declaring the High Sparrow king in the process. It's clear he's got something cooking, and it might just be that big. This could mean that Aegon has to fight the Faith to get to the Iron Throne, which would upset the realm, and might Dany an in if she ever does head west. It would even be ironic: Dany was supposed to be the one coming to ruin Westeros with a foreign army, allowing Aegon to come in and save the day. The situation could well be reversed. Bear in mind also the strong possibility that Dorne, through Aegon, may end up being responsible for the brutal slaughter of Myrcella and Tommen, thus becoming as bad as the Lannisters.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 9:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Cersei and Qyburn/Gregor joining Euron also makes sense from another perspective. Euron clearly is set up to become some sort of a sorcerer king or a king who very effectively uses sorcery and magic for his campaigns... Qyburn and his zombie would feel right at home in that company.

Mmhmm, good call. Of course, that would throw a spanner in the works of the theory that Qyburn is working for Dorne, but I'm not sold on that one anyway.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 10:32 PM, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps there won't be an Iron Throne at the very end of the series - but what kind of an ending would that be?

It could be cool. It depends how far he takes the whole Long Night thing. It may be that the Others are so disruptive that the question of who sits the Iron Throne becomes irrelevant.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 1:05 AM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I think it's both. Their "golden crows" is what make people doubt they are Robert's what eventually will condemn them. They need to be crowned with gold despite their hair is golden. That will be their curse.

Unless the prophecy isn't perfectly accurate.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 4:55 AM, Lord Varys said:

What do you guys think will the effect of the revelation/existence of Ser Robert Strong have on the Martells. One assumes that Lady Nym would seen through his disguise as soon as she first sees him, and whatever he does during the trial-by-combat would only confirm that.

Doran Martell has shown that he can take a lot before he gets angry. But he really assumed the head they got was Gregor's. I can't but wonder whether such a blatant lie trickery would twist the knife that hit him when Oberyn was killed yet again.

Yes, he'll be upset, but he'll probably carry on as planned. The real question is, what will Nym and Tyene do? Will they depart from Doran's script?

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 4:57 AM, Grizzly Mormont said:

Yes, I thought the existence of weirwoods here was very important hint too. Paired with the cotf cavern, this place has some interesting cotf implications. 

Eh, am I the only one who thinks that this cave is just colour? I can't see anybody returning to the rainwood at all, let alone some mystery cave that they found by accident.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 5:33 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

Absolutely.  Especially considering this is the south and almost all of the weirwoods were cut down or burned in the south signifying the dwindling of the Old Gods in the region.  I think it speaks volumes. 

Disagree. The rainwood is huge on the map. Of course there'll be some wild weirwoods lingering there. No chance the Andals would have got them all.

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 6:39 AM, Lord Varys said:

By the way: George has commented that Areo Hotah will remain a POV in TWoW. Any ideas where he is story is going to go?... I think the only point of the Darkstar story is to finally introduce House Dayne into the story...

http://i.imgur.com/yMaGo.gif

On Friday, 13 May 2016 at 7:54 AM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and there is a very good chance that Nym would be executed pretty quickly should Myrcelle ever be reunited with her mother. Cersei will ask her daughter what actually happened in Dorne. And if Myrcella tells the truth then Nymeria is not going to leave the Red Keep in one piece.

If that really is Myrcella...

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

From a political perspective a marriage to Myrcella would actually be pretty smart because this way his actual parentage is not going to matter all that much. Either he is king by right of his wife or because he is Rhaegar's son - that way he should be able to get even those people to accept him more easily who think he is just a fraud.

Another great catch!

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 4:02 PM, Lord Varys said:

No ship will leave for Dorne soon, and nobody in Meereen aside from Gerris and Arch even cares about who that Quentyn guy was or is.

Disagree: sailors gossip, and Quentyn's story is good gossip. A Westerosi prince went to Meereen, but the dragon queen spurned him, so he tried to steal her dragons and got burnt to death. If they had newspapers that'd be in the first few pages, and I should think it fairly likely that some garbled version of the tale will make it back to Westeros with the first bits of news from the region. Bear in mind that ships won't be leaving for Dorne from Meereen, but they will from Volantis and Tyrosh and everywhere else, and the news will travel through those ports.

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 9:28 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I certainly hope that Areo will live for a while. With Arianne traveling towards SE, Areo is our only POV in Dorne, and thus, the only one likely to interact with Doran (once his Darkstar mission of over, at least). GRRM said that Hotah would remain a POV. Does that mean that he's definitly in Winds, or that he's going to show up in at least one of the two books (with the chance that he won't be in Winds, but will appear in ADOS)?

If it means he'll definitly be in Winds, it indeed gives us a chance to learn more about House Dayne, as it will most likely mean we'll get a chapter (or more) about his Darkstar mission, which might lead to the involvement of the Dayne's of Starfall (who are Darkstar's liege, if I'm not mistaken).

I hope it also gives Hotah a chance to have his own story, get his own loyalties tested, all of that shit. He's a bit of a dud himself; seemingly just a way for us to see Dorne and Doran's plotting without us actually knowing what's going on.

I shouldn't be surprised though if he finds something momentous at Starfall. GRRM has a habit of giving important info to the characters who don't need it, and leaving us to put the pieces together.

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 10:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, the idea is that if Doran foresees/suspects that the real Myrcella will implicate his heir, Princess Arianne, in a plot against King Tommen then he might have descended to buy himself more time by saying he would sent Myrcella back while actually sending Rosamund - she might not know what had happened. Cersei certainly will recognize her, but that's not the point.

Ah, but what if it's not Doran who pulled a switcheroo? What if Doran thinks he's sending back the real Myrcella, when really he's sending back Rosamund? What if this theory is bang on the money?

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 10:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Mace might still not care about offending Dorne because he is not necessarily glued to Tommen until the very end. He could join Aegon, too.

Well, no, I think Mace is glued to Tommen pretty hard, and it'd take a lot to unstick them. If Tommen's king, then Mace's daughter is definitely queen, and his grandson definitely king. It took a lot of work to get there; I'd say Mace is more likely to defend his current, favourable position than risk ending up in a worse one. I say he sticks with Tommen until it looks like he might lose more than his royal connections, i.e. if it ends up looking like he'll lose the throne and Highgarden, he might cut his losses. But shit'd have to get pretty real before he gives up his ambition.

On Saturday, 14 May 2016 at 10:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Loras' situation might not be so dire, it seems, considering that Mace talks about Loras searching Dragonstone. That doesn't suggest the boy is still dying. He might have recovered somewhat.

Loras is fine. That whole thing was fishy as fuck. Besides, if Margaery can figure out it was Cersei's hope to get Loras killed, then Mace can. (Or somebody near to him can, and they can explain it to him.) If he really thought Cersei killed his boy, he'd be much less congenial than he is, so I suspect the boy is doing just fine and presently sailing round Dorne to fight some Ironmen.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't make much sense because Lysono Maar apparently had nothing to do with the capture of Storm's End. If he had been there he wouldn't have met Arianne halfway on the road. Not to mention that he didn't seem to be at Griffin's Roost yet back in 'The Griffin Reborn' so he might have been with a contingent of sellswords that only just recently made its way to Griffin's Roost.

Disagree, per my timeline here Maar could have been involved, and I think he's probably too important not to have been, especially if they were using trickery and shenanigans to take the castle. Also, Connington was at Griffin's Roost for 6 more days after "The Griffin Reborn".

10 hours ago, Bironic said:

It is odd that the faith of seven is very unified, there are no schisms or antipopes or anything like that. Which is kind of unbelievable. If the faith of 7 is the westerosi version of roman catholicism, Where are the Westerosi equivalents to the prostestants, the cathars, the greek-orthodox, etc.

Well, aside from it being a fantasy novel of course, it seems to be the case that the Faith of the Seven isn't that fussed about doctrinal, uh... discipline. (I couldn't think of a better word.) We've seen other examples of septons having somewhat heterodox ideas, and it doesn't seem like the Citadel has a working equivalent to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In fact it seems like the Citadel was mainly concerned with big dinners until the sparrows showed up.

3 hours ago, Bironic said:

I had a similar thought. Is there a mention of how many ravens Feathers has taken on the trip?

I do believe it was eight.

-----------------------------

Fuck me, that was a lot of typing.

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Reading all the cave sequence, I could see that all this was an foreshadow.

Quote

, a series of twisty passageways led down and down, with black holes snaking off to either side... the searchers found themselves in a vast limestone cavern, larger than the great hall of a castle [...] . A slow circuit of the hall revealed three further passages, one so small that it would have required them to proceed on hands and knees. “We will try the others first,” the princess said. “Daemon, come with me. Garibald, Joss, you try the other one.”

It seems like the travel they did to Griffin's Roost. They had a travel through a difficult patch and arrived in the Roost, so Arianne is presented with two options go by ship to Storm's End or by horse, while Daemon give a third option, send him as envoy instead.

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The passageway Arianne had chosen for herself turned steep and wet within a hundred feet. The footing grew uncertain. Once she slipped, and had to catch herself to keep from sliding. More than once she considered turning back, but she could see Ser Daemon’s torch ahead and hear him calling for Elia, so she pressed on. And all at once she found herself in another cavern, five times as big as the last one, surrounded by a forest of stone columns. Daemon Sand moved to her side and raised his torch. “Look how the stone’s been shaped,” he said. “Those columns, and the wall there. See them?”

“Faces,” said Arianne. So many sad eyes, staring.

“This place belonged to the children of the forest.”

 And we have Arianne talking with Elia.

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. Their passageway led down to a still black pool, where they discovered the girl up to her waist in water, catching blind white fish with her bare hands, her torch burning red and smoky in the sand where she had planted it.

“You could have died,” Arianne told her, when she’d heard the tale. She grabbed Elia by the arm and shook her. “If that torch had gone out you would have been alone in the dark, as good as blind. What did you think that you were doing?”

“I caught two fish,” said Elia Sand.

“You could have died,” said Arianne again. Her words echoed off the cavern walls. “…died… died … died…”

The second part is a foreshadow about what is about to happens in Storm's End. I interpret this in two ways.

1. it is a representation of Arianne's internal struggle.

She will have to choose a patch, one guided by her mature side represented by Daemon and her immature side represented by Elia. Her mature side have to analyse what JonCon offers and Aegon claim with skepticism and her childish personality being vulnerable to what can influence her to accept to enter in war (Aegon's appearance, her envy for Quentyn, the desire to please her father). Which side will win? Good question.

2. It represents what actually will happens there.

It can be not a representation of what is happening inside of Arianne's head, but what will actually happens in the physical plan. She will go to Storms'End (the big cave hall) where the meeting will happens. I think she will refuse the alliance, creating the sad faces in the Golden Company (No Dorne, no hope to win the Iron Throne), but Elia (wanting to avenge her father) will discover the code used by Arianne and send a message to Doran and put Dorne in war. It sides with the other foreshadowing we had in in Arianne I, with Arianne disputing a ride with a redhead girl, while Elia comes and surpass her without her not even Elia coming. (There is a thread somewhere that develops very well this theory).

That last one is really tragic, because show that after years craven for revenge and wanting a war where few will die, Doran will be dragged to the conflict not in its own therms.

After that we also have the following dialogue between Arianne and Elia

Quote

 If the wrong man should learn who you are, you could be seized and held for ransom–“

“No,” Elia broke in. “You’re the one they’ll want to ransom. You’re the heir to Dorne, I’m just a bastard girl. Your father would give a chest of gold for you. My father’s dead.”

“Dead, but not forgotten,” said Arianne, who had spent half her life wishing Prince Oberyn had been her father. “You are a Sand Snake, and Prince Doran would pay any price to keep you and your sisters safe from harm.” That made the child smile at least.

I wonder what will happens with Elia. Probably she will do it to avenge her father and be responsable for the war and ruin of Dorne. Will she do it thinking Doran would never do something really harsh against her? Because, if she do it, she will commit high-treason and the penalty is death. And may be it will be her fate.   

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13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Religious tolerance seems quite widespread in Westeros, although I wonder if it's a general principle, or more the case that each lord determines what religion is followed in his own realm (or allows complete tolerance in his own realm).

That was mean, among others I think. Some answers to the comments on the NAB post about the new Arianne sample.

@Illyrio Mo'Parties

George has long ago said that we'll eventually see Casterly Rock. But the same goes for Highgarden, so we'll just have to wait and see. However, it seems chapters were supposed to take place at Casterly Rock in AFfC at one point.

Mace certainly wouldn't jump ships and join Aegon at once. But if he is defeated in battle or abandoned by a majority of his vassals then this certainly would be a possibility. And Aegon actually can't afford not try to woo the Tyrells. They are simply too powerful and well-connected in the Reach, even if a decent portion of the Reach Lords would not longer follow Mace's lead. The man controls about 100,000 men, after all.

The friends in the Reach would show the colors first, that's clear. Perhaps Houses Peake and Merryweather - and of course Mathis Rowan, but he is more a Targaryen loyalist than a friend of the Golden Company.

You are mistaken about Cersei's status.

1. She has already confessed certain crimes (sleeping around) and was forced to take her walk for that. That's not going away. She is confirmed slut, the rabble has thrown shit at her, and she crawled all fours through the streets. You don't recover easily from that. Cersei may wear silk and satin and jewels again, but every man and woman in KL interacting with her will remember that she is neither something special nor important. In fact, she is inferior to any decent woman in KL because she is a confirmed slut.

2. Cersei winning her trial is not going to restore the Regency to her. She is no longer Queen Regent. That is over, permanently. On the day she was arrested the Small Council has taken the Regency from her and given the office to Ser Kevan Lannister. Who has lost it now, too. But a new regent will be appointed, most likely Mace, and certainly not Cersei because she no longer has a voice on the Small Council (and no crony, either). Pycelle is dead, too, and Harys Swyft will never vote against the Tyrells. Which means Mace and Tarly will decide who the new regent will be. If a new regent is named at all. Mace is the Hand of the King. He speaks with Tommen's Voice in any case, regardless whether there is a regent or not. But even if Nym suddenly materialized and was accepted at the Small Council and she and Swyft would vote against Mace and Tarly then Mace would still win because in a stalemate he would just speak with the King's Voice and settle the matter.

If Cersei wins her trial she won't be executed or otherwise punished. And she'll remain Lady of Casterly Rock (a title and lordship she'll hold until her death or until such time as King Tommen attaints her).

3. The Lannisters don't have an army in the city. They have their Red Cloaks but that's it. A few hundred men, perhaps a little bit more. The City Watch's loyalty is unclear and if they are Varys' now they won't support Cersei. They will support Varys and Varys wants to destroy the regime of King Tommen not help that Cersei. Doing 'the queen's good work' means creating a civil war and chaos on the streets of KL or even in the Red Keep, not changing the power dynamic in Cersei's favor.

In addition, it seems as if the sparrows were already as strong or stronger than the City Watch back in AFfC. At least in their part of the city. Tommen/the City Watch can, most likely, not risk attack the sparrows without risking a general uprising in the city. And that they could certainly not control. Only as long as the Tyrell army remains in KL is there any chance that the High Septon will be forced to behave himself. If the Tyrells are gone the real power in the city will quickly shift towards the Great Sept.

I know how the news about Quentyn would/will travel, but my point is that the more important news that will travel much more quickly is Daznak's Pit and perhaps (prior to that) Dany's peace treaty with Yunkai and her marriage to Hizdahr. All that will already destroy the alliance Dorne wanted to make with Dany. Once those news reach Doran and Arianne - and they will travel much more quickly because those events are more important/interesting and happened earlier in time. The Quentyn story might be of lesser importance in light of the fact that the people spreading that tale will also have the news about the battle(s) or Meereen and the outcome, perhaps even the identity of a new dragonrider.

Yeah, Hotah actually might actually give us core pieces in the whole Jon Snow mystery without realizing it himself while interacting/talking to some Daynes.

Mace isn't glued to Tommen because Tommen is still a boy and he is the middle of a war and his daughter might be soiled goods and incapable of getting with child from that boy for years to come. If Tommen goes down, Mace has and will jump ship. He is not Tommen's father, after all. In fact, he should hate Tommen's entire family by now.

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57 minutes ago, Arrow of the Morning said:

Someone here said that George confirmed Areo will return as POV in Winds of Winter. Do someone have the source, please?

The source is one of the comments in his not a blog, in the Arianne post.

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9 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

 

The source is one of the comments in his not a blog, in the Arianne post.

Thanks! I found it.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/487298.html?thread=24441730#t24441730

Many people believed they would get rid of Areo POV when George said we would have less POVs in Winds. They were wrong.  

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