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[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2

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Just a subversive little thought; while its plausibly suggested the tunnels and caverns provide a refuge from the cold, they are also places of darkness and might serve equally well as a refuge from light and fire.

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Actually, the marriage for Dickon is to the heiress of Maidenpool not the Lannisters or the Tyrells, so the marriage would go unchanged. When Randyll Tarly's choosing which side to fight on, first comapre Kings Tommen and Aegon, Tommen is plump soft boy with a sweet, tractable nature who enjoys his kittens much like his son Sam (and we all know much he approved of him), while Aegon is fighting in his battles to retake the Iron Throne.

The point is, Mace is his liege lord and serving him faithfully has served Tarly well in turn; he is now reaping rewards. This does not give Tarly a reason to turn turncloak.

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Just a subversive little thought; while its plausibly suggested the tunnels and caverns provide a refuge from the cold, they are also places of darkness and might serve equally well as a refuge from light and fire.

"There is power in living wood", said Jojen, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power as strong as fire".

When Bran and co finally emerge from the crypts of Winterfell, and see that the godswood stood unburnt.

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The point is, Mace is his liege lord and serving him faithfully has served Tarly well in turn; he is now reaping rewards. This does not give Tarly a reason to turn turncloak.

What has Tarly really been reaping, though? His wife, Melessa Florent, was next in line for Brightwater Keep, with its prestige and extremely wealthy lands, but Mace Tyrell made sure it went to his own son Garlan instead. Tarly won the only royalist victory during Robert's Rebellion, yet Mace takes all the credit. Tarly's the one who captured Maidenpool in the first place, so the marriage between Dickon and the heir to Maidenpool really came about through Tarly's efforts, not Mace Tyrell's largesse. Mace is kind of an incompetent fighter, and his heir Willas is a cripple; to Tarly, martial prowess is the only thing that matters. I can see Tarly turning his cloak if he sees Aegon as a route toward getting the power and prestige that Tarly probably feels is his due (especially since his liege lord seems to take him for granted).

Abandoned caverns and tunnels which belonged to cotf..

Here's a wacky thought: maybe not all of these caverns and tunnels are really abandoned? Maybe there are small groups of the Children still living in tunnels south of the Wall.

Edited by tze

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"There is power in living wood", said Jojen, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power as strong as fire".

When Bran and co finally emerge from the crypts of Winterfell, and see that the godswood stood unburnt.

Good catch. I remember that quote from ACoK, in that same book, Melisandre said

this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can passancient, forgotten, yet still in place.

Those spells were obviously put there by the CotF. Valyrian and Mel's sorcery is rooted in fire or blood, the CotF's magic could be rooted in their opposites: living green and ice(or water).

Edited by fireeater22

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What has Tarly really been reaping, though? His wife, Melessa Florent, was next in line for Brightwater Keep, with its prestige and extremely wealthy lands, but Mace Tyrell made sure it went to his own son Garlan instead.

Was she next in line in the Florent family? I didn't realise this, that's indeed a good point as Brightwater Keep is a rich catch.

Makes me wonder if Sam could eventually get it (depending on him not becoming a maester and the Watch not surviving the books in its present state, though).

I agree that it may be possible Tarly felt this as a slight.

Tarly won the only royalist victory during Robert's Rebellion, yet Mace takes all the credit. Tarly's the one who captured Maidenpool in the first place, so the marriage between Dickon and the heir to Maidenpool really came about through Tarly's efforts, not Mace Tyrell's largesse.

Tarly captured Maidenpool, but the army he used for it likely was filled for the most part with forces from (other) Tyrell bannermen, and only a relatively small part of the army being his very own troops - I guess. Looking at it from another angle, Mace may not give him full credit in public but he did give him command of his own, very large army, so his competence as a commander is defacto acknowledged (during Robert's rebellion he commanded "only" the vanguard of Mace's forces IIRC).

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I like this idea. Perhaps the godswoods were not planted inside the very oldest castles but built around them for a reason long forgotten?

i'm not sure about the other keeps, but i was under the impression that winterfell was indeed built around it godswood especially since bran's tree vision showed the godswood area pre-winterfell.

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(during Robert's rebellion he commanded "only" the vanguard of Mace's forces IIRC).

Tyrion and Mace's mother, Lady Olenna, herself admits it was Tarly commanding the vanguard who won the Battle of Ashford; by the time Mace Tyrell arrived with the rest of his forces, the battle was already over.

Overall, the chance is Tarly may join Connington.

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Good catch. I remember that quote from ACoK, in that same book, Melisandre said

Those spells were obviously put there by the CotF. Valyrian and Mel's sorcery is rooted in fire or blood, the CotF's magic could be rooted in their opposites: living green and ice(or water).

Nice catch on that too! The CotF could have helped in those spells too, and if that is so, they seem to be helping in protecting humans from both ice and fire...

The caverns can be a safe place to stay when fire is blazing just as it could be when winter comes.

I have a theory about the CotF just like you say, that they draw their magic from nature. I think they oppose both ice and fire magic, since they do not practice sacrifice of others for the purpose of immortality or power. Some suggestions are that they do practice blood sacrifice but I think it is unlikely, they give their bodies to the trees for the gain of greenseeing and they live on in the trees since the weirwoods live for thousands of years. That is why there are sculls and bones in their cave beneath the grove.

The northmen may have practiced (and some still do...) blood sacrifice but I think that is an abomination of the religion, not the essence.

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I think the trial has happened and Margaery has been judged guilty. Mace Tyrell is coming WITH Margaery to make her a queen again. YG is gonna grow strong real quick!

Would be interesting to see a clash between Dorne and Highgarden for the new king.

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There is a reason it is so surprising that Aegon & the Golden Company were apparently able to take Storm's End so quickly (or at all). It has never in its thousands of years of history been taken. It's a formidable Stronghold. Do we have any textual hints as to why the Golden Company and Aegon were able to? ...But perhaps I have an undue impression of Storm's End and its history. I thought it surprising how confident Jon Connington was that they could take Storm's End, though more realistically he expected opposition to his obviously ambitious/daring plan.

I cannot help but think of how Loras said he buried his King (& Love) in a secret place the two of them knew at Storm's End. Also if part of the historical impregnability of Storm's End was due some form of subtle magick like the Wall... then perhaps now that the God's Wood has been burned down, something important has changed...

I agree with a prior poster. I'm sure they had some kind of ploy in mind. Jon Connington knows the Stormlands well. Can any one remember any reference to Storm's End that may help?

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One possibility is that they pretended to be allies of the (Stannis) garrison inside the castle, bringing supplies after battling/chasing away the Tyrell holding force, so they could just walk in.

Or maybe Jon Connington knows some secret about the castle that others don't, but that should rather be the province of the Baratheons as those lived there, after all.

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My money is also on the fake supply tactics, it's easy to make your move while two other forces are at their throats. And it would explain why they won so fast.

But I also like the thought of greenhand with the God's Wood after this hints to these "CotF tunnels". Although it would be surprising that no one would have figured this out before (+ if Connington knows why hadn't he told Mace back then during Robert's Rebellion? Or did he already lost his battle by then?).

Anyway I didn't knew the Sandsnakes got 300 Dornish soldiers with them. I thought it would be just them with some guards. I was wondering anyway what would happen with them if Doran declares for Aegon while they are in King's Landing. Can become interesting when Mace and his host leave King's Landing. I mean, then there should only the Goldcloaks are left, how many of them were there left by the time of AFFC/ADWD? If Tyene can influence the Faith's troops for their favour + the 300 spears they can unleash a big shitstorm in King's Landing/Red Keep with a good planned night operation. Actually I think when this other Tyrell army, which is marching for Storm's End is defeated Mace will make a move.

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Actually, the marriage for Dickon is to the heiress of Maidenpool not the Lannisters or the Tyrells, so the marriage would go unchanged. When Randyll Tarly's choosing which side to fight on, first compare Kings Tommen and Aegon, Tommen is a plump soft boy with a sweet, tractable nature who enjoys his kittens much like his son Sam (and we all know much he approved of him), while Aegon is fighting in his battles to retake the Iron Throne. Then compare the men leading either side: Griff and Mace Tyrell, Griff has a name as a warrior and he proves to be an experienced, qualified battle commander, while Mace Tyrell, the Fat Flower's great military prowess exists only in his head, and other than that he couldn't lead a troupe of mummers.

This is a very excellent analysis of Tarly's personality, and why even beyond the political slights and lack of credit that he's had to endure from Mace, he might be more inclined to Aegon and Griff just because they aren't fat dolt Mace and puppy boy.

Whether Tarly is already plotting to join Aegon - I don't know. People use his intense dismissal of Aegon as a "protesting too loudly" type of thing, thus indicating he's already gone to Aegon. But I'm not sure. I think maybe he really does think Aegon is nothing at the moment.

But I'm confident that whether or not he's with Aegon now, he will end up with Aegon later. Tarly has been built up heavily in the books - "the best soldier in Westeros" or whatever he was called. He clearly is going to have a major role.

And there was also I believe heavy foreshadowing in Kevan's thoughts on Tarly. He said that among the Tyrell people, Tarly was the truly dangerous one. I believe this was foreshadowing that Tarly would eventually turn against the Lannisters, perhaps even being involved in the killing of Tommen. Because Kevan's thoughts of Tarly being dangerous just seemed like strong foreshadowing that Tarly would be dangerous to them (the Lannisters), and not to their enemies, as they think.

Do we have confirmation on who is leading the Tyrell army to Storm's End?

Edited by Kadence

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So in the last book Jon was attacked and stabbed. Anyone else bugged that the author keeps killing off the main characters. I really liked Jon. That being said, is it possible that Jon survives?

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Off topic, Really No One. This is about the Arianne chapter. Feel free to post in the A Dance with Dragons section. :)

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There is a reason it is so surprising that Aegon & the Golden Company were apparently able to take Storm's End so quickly (or at all). It has never in its thousands of years of history been taken. It's a formidable Stronghold. Do we have any textual hints as to why the Golden Company and Aegon were able to?

As I've suggested before I have a suspicion that a mummers's dragon (a real one) may be involved.

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This is a very excellent analysis of Tarly's personality, and why even beyond the political slights and lack of credit that he's had to endure from Mace, he might be more inclined to Aegon and Griff just because they aren't fat dolt Mace and puppy boy.

Whether Tarly is already plotting to join Aegon - I don't know. People use his intense dismissal of Aegon as a "protesting too loudly" type of thing, thus indicating he's already gone to Aegon. But I'm not sure. I think maybe he really does think Aegon is nothing at the moment.

But I'm confident that whether or not he's with Aegon now, he will end up with Aegon later. Tarly has been built up heavily in the books - "the best soldier in Westeros" or whatever he was called. He clearly is going to have a major role.

And there was also I believe heavy foreshadowing in Kevan's thoughts on Tarly. He said that among the Tyrell people, Tarly was the truly dangerous one. I believe this was foreshadowing that Tarly would eventually turn against the Lannisters, perhaps even being involved in the killing of Tommen. Because Kevan's thoughts of Tarly being dangerous just seemed like strong foreshadowing that Tarly would be dangerous to them (the Lannisters), and not to their enemies, as they think.

Do we have confirmation on who is leading the Tyrell army to Storm's End?

No confirmation, but it is likely Tarly. Mace will not leave KL until his daughter's trial has concluded. Although it could be Mathis Rowan (where is he?).

I would also like to cast a vote for Lord Tarly making a move at some point. Remember the Tyrells were only stewards of the old Gardener Kings. They were raised far above their station for simply yielding High Garden to Aegon. They never reigned as kings and have ruled the reach for a relatively short amount of time, as compared to thousands of years for the other great houses. Even the Queen of Thorns acknowledges that the Tyrell claim is a bit dodgy.

Given this, we know that the Florents considered the Tyrells as pretenders. I wonder if the other great houses of the Reach feel the same way? House Tarly could just as easily displace house Tyrell without much resistance from the rest of the Reach.

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There is a reason it is so surprising that Aegon & the Golden Company were apparently able to take Storm's End so quickly (or at all). It has never in its thousands of years of history been taken. It's a formidable Stronghold. Do we have any textual hints as to why the Golden Company and Aegon were able to? ...But perhaps I have an undue impression of Storm's End and its history. I thought it surprising how confident Jon Connington was that they could take Storm's End, though more realistically he expected opposition to his obviously ambitious/daring plan.

I cannot help but think of how Loras said he buried his King (& Love) in a secret place the two of them knew at Storm's End. Also if part of the historical impregnability of Storm's End was due some form of subtle magick like the Wall... then perhaps now that the God's Wood has been burned down, something important has changed...

I agree with a prior poster. I'm sure they had some kind of ploy in mind. Jon Connington knows the Stormlands well. Can any one remember any reference to Storm's End that may help?

I like the fake supply theory as well. Connington said he planned to take the castle by guile. But he was very confident in being able to take the keep, lending to the idea that he knows some secret about the castle.

In the appendix to ADWD it states that Jon was briefly the lord of Storms End (likely after Aerys attainted Robert and his brothers). I don't know if there would have been time for him to inspect the castle. Maybe he was fostered there or spent time there.

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No confirmation, but it is likely Tarly. Mace will not leave KL until his daughter's trial has concluded. Although it could be Mathis Rowan (where is he?).

I'm not sure about this but - isn't Mathis Rowan the one who was besieging Storm's End? As I recall, him and Mace were besieging Storm's End, but when Marg's trial happened Mace rode back with most of the forces. I'm assuming Rowan took command of the leftover troops.

So yes, there's a very good chance Tarly is the one leading the army. And he's probably got some buddies in the Golden Company. The whole situation with Arianne/Tyrell army/Connington might get interesting in terms of negotiations. Tarly and Dorne might wait for the other to commit before choosing a side. I could see Tarly besieging the castle, but talking secretly to Connington - then when Dorne inevitably declares for Aegon, Tarly sees where the wind is blowing and picks what he perceives as the winning side.

When it comes to this stuff about fake supply line theories and such, I think people forget there was a Tyrell army already besieging the fortress. They aren't going to just let some supply train or mummers through :) Connington would have had to fight the Tyrells as well. Which means perhaps they pretended to be Stannis' cavalry or something and that's the "guile", who knows.

In the appendix to ADWD it states that Jon was briefly the lord of Storms End (likely after Aerys attainted Robert and his brothers). I don't know if there would have been time for him to inspect the castle. Maybe he was fostered there or spent time there.

It's very possible he knows something about the castle being from the area, but he had to be Lord of Storm's End in name only. Remember that it never fell - Stannis held it. So he was never really Lord of Storm's End, just promised it if they won the war.

Also there's a good chance that's just a typo and it meant Lord of Griffin's Roost, not Storm's End.

Edited by Kadence

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