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[twow Spoilers] Arianne II, Part 2


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2 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Show spoilers S6 leaked news about oncoming confrontation between Jaime and High Sparrow (the scene from trailer with its aftermath)

 

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In the show, Jaime Lannister and Mace Tyrell confronts the High Sparrow with an army but no battle ensues, because Margaery has 'chosen the faith' (not sure what she did - it's not like she converted, she was already a follower of the Seven), and is freed by the High Sparrow. She is not punished like Cersei was. Could this imply that Margaery in the books will be freed as well?

 

 

 

In the books, we know that the case against Margaery is weak.  And, the HS is quite canny politically.  He'd be reluctant to be too harsh on a popular Queen whose father has a powerful army in the vicinity.

Even if Margaery were guilty of adultery, I'm not sure it would result in a death sentence, although in all likelihood, she would be disgraced and set aside.

What might sink Margaery is if, during the course of her trial, evidence emerged which implicated her in the murder of Joffrey.  The Show has been quite clear to exonerate Margaery from this.

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6 minutes ago, John Doe said:

How do you think Storm's End was taken? Did they just say they were Stannis' men and the garrison should let them in?

Since that's exactly what Ramsay did, and since Jon Con would probably not want to alienate Rowan since he is a Targ sympathizer I have theorized that they will send in a ship disguised as a smuggler just like Davos, and take the castle that way.

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11 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

At the time he advised Aegon, Tyrion was not expecting to be taken away from the Griffs. It was a win-win situation for him. If Aegon meets with Dany, he will see the truth in Tyrion's words (about how she is no simple maid waiting for a pretty prince), and grow to respect Tyrion. If by some off-chance they turned to Westeros, the political situation there was exactly as Tyrion explained to Aegon, the same situations that will enable Aegon to win the Throne now.  But then Tyrion had to go and get a whore.. maybe Lord Tywin was right about the dangers of Tyrion's whoring.

But yes, if Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany, he might regret advising Aegon. Also, before the Ironborn turned up to save the day, he might have hoped for Griff and the GC to come save Mereen to get Dany.

All the alliances are going to be messy now. Main characters are given difficult choices.

Aegon: (i) Marry Dany and displease Dorne (ii) Marry Margaery and displease Dorne, lose Dany and dragons (iii) Marry Arianne/Elia and lose Dany and her dragons. (iv) Marry Sansa and lose Dany and dragons.

Arianne (i) Marry Aegon and displease Dany (ii) Ally with Aegon and  marry Willas, but alienate Dany and dragons (iii) Ally with Dany (very very unlikely).

Dany (i) Marry Euron and displease everyone in Westeros (ii) Marry Aegon and be not sure if he is real deal or not (iii) Marry Trystane and make Aegon marry Sansa and Arianne marry Willas. (best case scenario for stable alliances and very unlikley to happen)

From the looks of it, Aegon is all set to get too far away from the dragon, like it happened in the cyvasse game with Tyrion. I thought Euron was a villain, but Arianne's view of the GC is not very promising either. And elephants won't help in a battle in the sea.

Please keep the show out of here!

The problem with Tyrion's advice from a storytelling POV is that Tyrion would have had no need/motivation to give Aegon that counsel in this context, nor would Aegon have had any reason to react to it the way he did. This conversation was originally either supposed to take place at the meeting with the Golden Company officers or shortly before that with Tyrion advising Aegon in quiet moment.

When the decision is wheter to risk much and more to go to Meereen to (perhaps?) win Dany and the dragons or to go to Westeros now and hope to make the best possible use out of the current political situation there this talk makes sense. But the way George portrayed it in the books it doesn't work. Nobody has any intention yet to decide between 'going east or west'. They are going south, down the Rhoyne, and hopw to await Daenerys at Volantis. They are still operating under the assumption that Dany is on her way west, and Aegon has no reason whatsoever to see himself as supplicant or beggar when facing his aunt. She will be on the move (from Slaver's Bay to Volantis) and he will await her with 10,000 sellswords. Aegon would have been in a position of strength.

George should have placed the Aegon-Tyrion conversation after the news about Dany staying in Meereen had reached the ship (which it only does when Tyrion and Haldon leave the boat). But he didn't, and therefore this conversation is very irritating the way it is.

Aegon technically has the option to take multiple wives, and I'm pretty sure this will come up one way or another. It could be a way to try to resolve the Aegon-Dany situation even if Arianne has already become Aegon's queen and the mother of his son. Polygamy is evil and forbidden, but there are precedents for that kind of thing and it should be preferable to war. But that's most likely an option Arianne will be opposing because of the Quentyn thing.

I don't think Dany will end up with Euron. They are not likely to meet each other soon, and Euron certainly is more a force of destruction and chaos than anything else. I expect him to acquire more and more power while Aegon wages his campaign so that he can become a really great danger during the Second Dance and perhaps even the War for the Dawn. And I'm still liking the idea of Cersei marrying him so that they could become some sort of evil couple of doom.

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2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Since that's exactly what Ramsay did, and since Jon Con would probably not want to alienate Rowan since he is a Targ sympathizer I have theorized that they will send in a ship disguised as a smuggler just like Davos, and take the castle that way.

How is Rowan a Targ sympathizer?

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I don't think Dany will end up with Euron. They are not likely to meet each other soon, and Euron certainly is more a force of destruction and chaos than anything else. I expect him to acquire more and more power while Aegon wages his campaign so that he can become a really great danger during the Second Dance and perhaps even the War for the Dawn. And I'm still liking the idea of Cersei marrying him so that they could become some sort of evil couple of doom.

I rather liked the suggestion one poster came up with that Euron and Dany would marry, and then go on the rampage like Mickey and Mallory in Natural Born Killers.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to the descriptions:

Come on, George has a very unadorned prose. The man focus a little bit on meals and clothes, but that's it. There no good or detailed descriptions of places, buildings, structures, people, or other important features. For instance, the whole cave episode in the chapter could have greatly profited from being longer and more detailed to create a really weird atmosphere for the reader.

There is a hint that Maar disguised himself as a woman when slipped into Volantis to check out the situation there. We don't see him doing that but the way he talks about it does not suggest that he went in there dressed as a manly man.

Maar gives the creeps to both Jon Connington (who sees him as an effeminate caricature of his dead silver prince) and Arianne. That is not confirmation that men with Valyrian hair and eyes look strange, it is confirmation that the effeminate/affected manner of Lysono Maar is making people uncomfortable who don't know him. It is also not confirmation that he is lying. It just shows that the man exploits the impact his manner and looks have on people to his advantage.

Dude's a dandy (i.e., a man unduly devoted to style, neatness, and fashion in dress and appearance--a fop, a glamor-boy), no doubt about that. And being a manly man myself, I am a bit weirded out by such characters, even though I try to be enlightened about it. But you have called him a transvestite. Heck, even if the softy did dress as a women in disguise, well that's a disguise, isn't it? That wouldn't make him a transvestite. He is not described as wearing women's appearance or pretending to be a woman to get a "rise" out of it. 

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5 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

I really enjoyed to see Arianne's character growing. She is colder,more cautious and has her own will.

As in Arianne I, her dislike for Daenerys and the beauty of Targaryen men appear again. 

If Mace Tyrell leaves King's Landing that means Margaery is free?

The only trouble is that if Arianne hasn't reached Aegon in two chapters then how many chapters will be needed for Aegon to reach King's Landing? Not to mention Dany's return to Westeros.

My understanding is that several, if not all, of the spoiler chapters, as well as an Aeron chapter, were originally intended to be included in Dance. Once we get past the three big battles--hmm, Meereen, Winterfell, and Storm's End  (the dragon has three heads ;) ), he should be able to move toward resolution of the Second Dance rather quickly, no? Winds is going to be BIG book, after all. 

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon technically has the option to take multiple wives, and I'm pretty sure this will come up one way or another. It could be a way to try to resolve the Aegon-Dany situation even if Arianne has already become Aegon's queen and the mother of his son. Polygamy is evil and forbidden, but there are precedents for that kind of thing and it should be preferable to war. But that's most likely an option Arianne will be opposing because of the Quentyn thing.

I feel fairly certain that he won't marry Dany and i actually don't think Dany would see this as necessary to cement an alliance, although Aegon's camp may want this to add legitimacy, but to some extent so would being accepted in marriage to any of the great houses.

Whether she is barren or not, Dany thinks she is. Unlikely she will want to risk the future of her family by marrying the only male heir if she is unable to have children. If she returns to Westero's at all of course.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, of course. The news about Quentyn will make it difficult/impossible for Aegon to peacefully include Daenerys into his new regime. Assuming he is already the crowned and anointed King Aegon VI Targaryen by then, sitting the Iron Throne and having won the love of a majority of his people.

But even that should only be one contributing factor. Aegon will have to make other alliances and have to involve himself more deeply into the Westerosi affairs in any possible scenario that has him win and keep the Iron Throne until such time as Dany arrives.

The Faith most likely will also be opposed to the idea of a Daenerys I - or rather, the High Sparrow will be reluctant to counsel Aegon to marry his aunt instead of Arianne (who is only his first cousin). Not to mention that a peace/pact with Daenerys most certainly will mean that Aegon VI and Daenerys I formally share their power, perhaps even in a more explicit way than Aegon and his sister-wives and Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. The Faith would not like that, and neither might Aegon himself by this point. After all, if he wins the Iron Throne then he'll want to keep what he has conquered and not like the idea of sharing it with his aunt.

Dany's associates (foreigners, savages, and Ironborn) along with the rumors painting her as a cruel and mad ruler as well as her religious beliefs (which might actually be R'hllorian or perceived as such from the outside if Moqorro and Benerro end up joining her team) won't make her popular in Westeros, either.

I think this Second Dance kind of thing will actually have little in common with the First Dance. Only the name, basically. The Dance was a war between siblings who hated each other. The Second Dance will be a war between two (distant) relatives who don't even know each other. I think a series of serious misunderstandings (Quentyn) and botched assassination attempts (Strong Belwas trying to murder Dany after Illyrio sends a note to him that the dragon queen is now no longer needed) might poison the relationship between these two people.

But we'll most likely get nothing resembling the scale of the historical Dance. Dany will most likely have a huge fleet by the time she moves to Westeros. And if that's the case then she also has no reason not to attack KL directly. If she takes that she might kill/capture Aegon then and there. If not, then the rest of the war will be a hunt for him and perhaps one or two serious battles after which the thing will be settled. That should take all that long. But in light of the book(s) it took to cover the War of the Five Kings I can't but think that it will have to be at least 1-2 books. Especially in light of the fact that other things are going to happen at the same time. And Dany's arrival the beginning of this Second Dance in Westeros most certainly should happen around the same time or shortly before the final attack of the Others. It cannot happen in the middle of the War for the Dawn because that would make such a civil war a very silly idea.

Didn't catch these two, but I was pretty sure that Elia catching blind fishs at the lake in the cave was a pretty obvious nod towards Gollum.

if Illyrio did something as stupid as secretly order an agent, who could very likely go native, to kill his mark, I would take it as proof that he was stupid enough to give a rival a larger army and a head start ahead of his preferred claimant, so that his claimant could clean up the mess. 

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2 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

To me, the wild weirwoods and the cave were the best and most important parts.  IIRC it's the first time we see weirwoods outside of a Godswood in the south. 

Wasn't there a slender young weirwood at the Whispers in Cracklaw Point? 

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44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dude's a dandy (i.e., a man unduly devoted to style, neatness, and fashion in dress and appearance--a fop, a glamor-boy), no doubt about that.

Actually, he's not different from Daario. They're very "colourful".

44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And being a manly man myself, I am a bit weirded out by such characters, even though I try to be enlightened about it.

Being a woman who like manly man, whenever Maar or Daario are brought up, I metaphorically cross my legs a bit... Arianne agrees with me. U_U

44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But you have called him a transvestite. Heck, even if the softy did dress as a women in disguise, well that's a disguise, isn't it? That wouldn't make him a transvestite. He is not described as wearing women's appearance or pretending to be a woman to get a "rise" out of it. 

No, he's not such. He is a spymaster, like Varys. IICR, Varys has disguised himself as a woman before too.

 

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