Jorah Mormont (spoiler)

[HaraktheHirsute]

Anyone feel that Daenerys' banishment of Jorah might have been excessive? I guess it could go either way. I think what sunk Jorah was that, instead of pleading for mercy, he was defensive.

Anyway, I was just wondering what other readers thought.

[HaraktheHirsute]

I hope there's something on Jorah in ADWD, I should add.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

Firstly, I think he was foolish. He let himself fall for Daenerys, and it wasn't a healthy love either, and she played him like a fiddle.

So, when it came time that he was banished, I feel like I was not surprised. Daenerys is still a child, irrational, and in turn I feel like even if he had begged for mercy she would have still banished him because she needed to make an example of one of the two men who had wronged her.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for him when I feel like he should have been able to see this outcome coming, but he was blinded by his feelings.

[Lord Toblerone]

Anyone feel that Daenerys' banishment of Jorah might have been excessive? I guess it could go either way. I think what sunk Jorah was that, instead of pleading for mercy, he was defensive.

Anyway, I was just wondering what other readers thought.

Nope, She did exactly the right thing. And he absolutely should've begged for mercy. Instead he compounded his error.

But I still felt bad for him.

Firstly, I think he was foolish. He let himself fall for Daenerys, and it wasn't a healthy love either, and she played him like a fiddle.

So, when it came time that he was banished, I feel like I was not surprised. Daenerys is still a child, irrational, and in turn I feel like even if he had begged for mercy she would have still banished him because she needed to make an example of one of the two men who had wronged her.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for him when I feel like he should have been able to see this outcome coming, but he was blinded by his feelings.

I mostly agree. I think Jorah could've stayed in her service but not held the same close position.

[HaraktheHirsute]

Good points, all.

On the other hand, he's not the kind of guy you'd want for an enemy. And I'm somewhat curious as to why Dany never suspected him before though she is still a child, as Summer pointed out.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

I mostly agree. I think Jorah could've stayed in her service but not held the same close position.

Good points, all.

On the other hand, he's not the kind of guy you'd want for an enemy. And I'm somewhat curious as to why Dany never suspected him before though she is still a child, as Summer pointed out.

I agree that Jorah could have stayed, but from the way Dany made her decisions, I knew she wouldn't.

However, I agree with Hark, he's not the type of person you want as an enemy. With that being said, I think Dany made a terrible mistake.

[Melpomene]

Initially, in her mind, I can't blame her for sending him away.

Imagine if you found out that person that you cared for, trusted deeply, been a loyal (And mostly only) companion was sending secrets about you behind your back to an enemy. That is a huge ouch for anyone. And as a Queen, she needed to assert her authority in an exotic and uncertain location, otherwise people may believe she could be walked all over. Any other ruler would have done something similar, or worse - put them to death. Look at Ned Stark, he was punished for beind dubbed a traitor. It's considered a really serious crime, as we all know.

Yes, perhaps Dany should have suspected early on, but if you were a 13-14 year old girl that is in danger of being murdered every waking life then married off to an unknown culture and language with only one other Westerosi person to talk to you...it is sort of a given that she would lean on him for basic support.

Plus, he has overstepped his boundaries, to the point of making Dany really uncomfortable. I mean, heck, as a much older man and knight he should have respected his Queen enough not to take advantage of a private and vulnerable moment. He had let his emotions/personal past get the better of him.

That all being said, he did have important insight on things. Like SummerGhost and Josscock said, perhaps a total banishment shouldn't have occured...if only he had handled the situation better. Again, I can understand why she reacted the way she did, but perhaps should have waited a little longer to make a proper decision instead of acting on impulse.

[HaraktheHirsute]

For some reason, I hope Jorah learns humility and redeems himself rather than becomes an enemy.

[Baxtar]

For some reason, I hope Jorah learns humility and redeems himself rather than becomes an enemy.

I don't think Jorah ever wanted anything more then being back in westeros. I think that is why he stopped spying on Dany (because she meant to conquer it) well that, and the fact that he loved her. I fear now that he's banished he's going to use the information he has on her to win a place back home.

That's my opinion at least.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

I don't think Jorah ever wanted anything more then being back in westeros. I think that is why he stopped spying on Dany (because she meant to conquer it) well that, and the fact that he loved her. I fear now that he's banished he's going to use the information he has on her to win a place back home.

That's my opinion at least.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Honestly, what has he got to lose? Nothing at this point. Plus, he'll have a difficult time trying to get back to Westeros without the help of Dany, or anyone, really. So, in the end, what other option does he truly have? I believe ha has none, unless something comes up by chance.

[Mattyp]

I see it differently than most people. Jorah turned his back on Westeros in favour of Dany, and saved her life when he heard that she had been ordered dead. If he was not one of Vary's 'little spiders' Dany would be dead and would have succumbed to the wine sellers poison in AGOT.

Dany needs to man up, forgive and forget, and not get rid one of her few military minded men.

[HaraktheHirsute]

Good point, Matt, although he whereabouts were known because of Jorah in the first place. Still the fact that he'd saved her life should prove that he was sincere in his devotion. I'd be more sympathetic to him if only he weren't so defensive when "on trial" in Mereen.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

I see it differently than most people. Jorah turned his back on Westeros in favour of Dany, and saved her life when he heard that she had been ordered dead. If he was not one of Vary's 'little spiders' Dany would be dead and would have succumbed to the wine sellers poison in AGOT.

Dany needs to man up, forgive and forget, and not get rid one of her few military minded men.

I agree with you to some degree. Yes, Jorah saved Dany's life, and he used the small information that he knew in Dany's favor, but I do not think that he ever turned his back on Westeros. He was saving Dany purely because of his feelings for her (although they were not quite as pronounced as they became later in the books).

The only reason is that there are many times later where Dany is trying to conquer these small cities to gain a following, and Jorah continually mentions that he feels she should continue on to Westeros, and that is where she needs to take her battle.

Part of this is because I feel like it truly is a folly on Dany's part, after she had acquired an army of men to waste them on taking control over every city because she felt sorry for the slavery that took place there, but she was young and there was no follow-through once these cities were conquered. She lost sight of her original goal to worry herself with something else that didn't concern her. So, I feel in that aspect Jorah was arguing for her to continue from that aspect that it was foolish to waste her men and acquire more people they could not feed and support.

However, I think that he was always fully aware that her final goal and intention was to take the Iron Throne, which in turn would have put him back at home where he always wanted to be. He would not only be with Dany when she took the throne, but would hold a place of honor, and I'm sure to some length that has to hold more sway than just being pardoned.

It was always the intent for the Dothraki to provide the Targaryens with an army to take back their "rightful throne," but I feel like he didn't fall more to Dany's side until he saw that there was more of a possibility that she could actually win, and of course his feelings for her continually grew through all of this.

In the comment of Dany needing to "man up, forgive and forget, and not get rid of her few military minded men"... well, I absolutely agree. Jorah was very skilled in this department, and she could have benefitted from keeping him and not sending him away.

Alas, I knew she would send him away. Her track record for impulsive decisions, and the way she continually treated him (in full knowledge of his feelings for her), there was no way she would choose otherwise. She's still childish, and naive, in some ways and definitely knows nothing really of military tactics.

This was much longer than I intended it to be... wow.

[Chatayas]

As a ruler, you cannot allow your subjects to treat you as their equals. There were moments when Jorah treated Dany like his Queen, others when he treated her like his wife and times he considered her a child he had to protect from the world. No one else in her party treats her this way except him, and he wasn't likely going to change. I say Dany had no choice at all but to do what she did, especially after realizing it was Jorah who committed the three betrayals (for blood, for gold, for love) against her. She let him live however, showing she is merciful, but just. How could she expect her other commanders to be loyal or respect her if she left such grave offenses go unpunished?

As to why she doesn't go straight to Westeros to claim her throne, she is waiting for her dragons to grow and be trained for battle. She wants to lead the assault herself when she returns home. These cities she's sacking are just prep for whats to come. Have to learn to walk before you run, right?

I'd have to agree with the comment that she is naive, when it comes to people. She is still to trusting of others, even after Mirri Maz Duur betrayed her. I'd have to disagree that she knows nothing of military tactics, however. See examples below.

1)Her victory in Astapor was of her own devising, obtaining the Unsullied first and then taking the city.

2)In Yunkai, she planned the attack at midnight (saying they should attack from three sides) after leading the sellswords and city into believing they had a day or more to surrender.

3)In Mereen, she sent Strong Belwas to slay the city champion when others had made offers to do it and came up with using the ships as a battering ram/distraction so a team could sneak into the city through the sewers.

I'd say Dany is quite the strategist. "I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war..." she told the sellswords at Yunkai. Hah. I'd say they learned otherwise.

[PointyEnd]

I really liked Mormont. He was one of my favorites. It's just a bad situation with major communication problems. They both need to sit down and figure it out. I think Dany should of given him a chance. She's a lot more vulnerable now without him. I worry for her... I know it's just a story but I dislike when two of my favorite characters break up. I for one think Mormont will be back... to save her one more time.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

Well, the problem is Dany and Jorah didn't really break up. Dany played him for a fool. She was clearly aware of his feelings, he made them obvious, and she used it to her advantage. All the same, she did make herself weaker without him. He was good counsel for her when he eliminated his feelings for her in his decisions.

[Silmarien]

Anyone feel that Daenerys' banishment of Jorah might have been excessive? I guess it could go either way. I think what sunk Jorah was that, instead of pleading for mercy, he was defensive.

Anyway, I was just wondering what other readers thought.

I hated that scene. I wish Dany had better sense and had forgiven Ser Jorah - he was her best counselor (I think he was right NOT to trust Magister Illyrio, and his advice to obtain The Unsullied was exceedingly clever). He saved her from one assassin - why is Dany surprised? If she had asked him who he was informing to (it was to Varys - who is obviously NOT on Team Lannister), she would've understood.

I hope she accepts him back into her service at some point. :-(

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

I hated that scene. I wish Dany had better sense and had forgiven Ser Jorah - he was her best counselor (I think he was right NOT to trust Magister Illyrio, and his advice to obtain The Unsullied was exceedingly clever). He saved her from one assassin - why is Dany surprised? If she had asked him who he was informing to (it was to Varys - who is obviously NOT on Team Lannister), she would've understood.

I hope she accepts him back into her service at some point. :-(

If Jorah Mormont has ANY sense in that brain of his, he would never accept a place in her service again. She abuses the poor man to her benefit alone.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

he was her best counselor (I think he was right NOT to trust Magister Illyrio, and his advice to obtain The Unsullied was exceedingly clever).

The Unsullied plan was really not that good, and was only redeemed by Dany's own scheme. With Jorah's original plan, they could have afforded... what? 100 Unsullied, maybe 200? Hardly an army and not much use in protecting her against Illyrio if he was actually hostile.

Well, the problem is Dany and Jorah didn't really break up. Dany played him for a fool. She was clearly aware of his feelings, he made them obvious, and she used it to her advantage. All the same, she did make herself weaker without him. He was good counsel for her when he eliminated his feelings for her in his decisions.

If Jorah Mormont has ANY sense in that brain of his, he would never accept a place in her service again. She abuses the poor man to her benefit alone.

I'm interested in the concept that Dany manipulated Jorah's feelings intentionally. Do you have any textual examples? Because it didn't read that way to me at all. Rather she was extremely confused and conflicted about his advances and put him off resolving things for a long time. And before that, she was extraordinarily naive in assuming that Jorah would be able to stay unrequited forever. These were not exactly mature reactions but I wouldn't say she was "playing him" in any intentional way.

It seems to me that all Dany wanted was for Jorah to remain her truest friend and companion, but then all these messy feelings got in the way (how inconvenient!).

I see Jorah's side of it though, too. There's only so many "chaste" kisses and naked breast glimpses a man can take before he loses his head. But then his behavior in his trial was far too arrogant (not that hers wasn't, but she's the queen and he's her knight - they cannot be equals in that setting even if she treats him as one in private). He's a grown man and should have known better, but he's a match for Dany in terms of pride and simply couldn't bring himself to swallow it that day.

[flame7926]

I think she was right to send him away, she would look weak if she didn't. He betrayed her secrets to people who wanted her dead. What did he do to help her? Save her from a poisoning that was his fault. He was advising her in bad ways. He told her to buy the unsullied, and not free the slaves.

I didnt feel that she abused or manipulated him at all. He kissed her, and she felt uncomfortable about it and told him not to. She never encouraged him in any way. He also did act badly in his trial. He didnt even really apoligise.