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R+L=J sounds good and all, but wouldn't Jon's hair be silver & eyes purple instead of black hair and brown? eyes?

Not necessarily. Inbred Targs tend to keep the silver/purple, but not always if they marry non-Targs. For example, Rhaegar's daughter had Dornish looks like her mother, and various Targaryens have taken after the non-Targ parent in looks. Valarr Targaryen (from the Hedge Knight) had dark hair and blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear had dark hair like his Dornish mother. Robert Baratheon's grandmother was a Targ married to a Baratheon and her son Steffan had the same Baratheon black hair and blue eyes as Robert, Stannis and Renly.

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Not necessarily. Inbred Targs tend to keep the silver/purple, but not always if they marry non-Targs. For example, Rhaegar's daughter had Dornish looks like her mother, and various Targaryens have taken after the non-Targ parent in looks. Valarr Targaryen (from the Hedge Knight) had dark hair and blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear had dark hair like his Dornish mother. Robert Baratheon's grandmother was a Targ married to a Baratheon and her son Steffan had the same Baratheon black hair and blue eyes as Robert, Stannis and Renly.

Oops! Dragonfish and Eleyna beat me to it!

So, anyway - No. Not all Targ descendants are silver/purple.

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Perhaps this has been said in another post already, but I think that we already have definite prove to disregard Ashara Dayne as Jon's mother.

While in Meereen, Barristan remembers Harrenhal and how he loved Ashara. Then he says Ashara's stillborn was a daughter, not a son. Even if the child did not really perish and something else happened to Ashara, it is clear now through Barristan, that Lady Dayne is not the mother of Jon Snow, which gives almost definitive foundation to R+L=J, since the thing about Wylla has never been strong.... Mind you, I'm inclined to think that Ned simply mentioned Wylla (Whoever she really was) because she nursed Jon as the rebellion finished, and most probably someone must have seen him in her company and misinterpreted the whole thing. I also think that Ashara played some part in the whole plot, but certainly not as the mother. D.R.

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Not necessarily. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had the Martell look, as did Baelor Breakspear (from The Hedge Knight) and Bittersteel, who had his mother's dark hair. It is by no means the case that all children of Targaryens have the Targaryen look, therefore Jon's appearance doesn't disprove anything.

If I took a drink for everytime someone asked that question and you had to answer it thusly, well, I'd be in the hospital getting my stomach pumped.

It should be stickied at the top of every page in the RLJ thread.

On a related note, "Jon got burn when fighting the wight." :bang:

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Perhaps this has been said in another post already, but I think that we already have definite prove to disregard Ashara Dayne as Jon's mother.

While in Meereen, Barristan remembers Harrenhal and how he loved Ashara. Then he says Ashara's stillborn was a daughter, not a son. Even if the child did not really perish and something else happened to Ashara, it is clear now through Barristan, that Lady Dayne is not the mother of Jon Snow, which gives almost definitive foundation to R+L=J, since the thing about Wylla has never been strong.... Mind you, I'm inclined to think that Ned simply mentioned Wylla (Whoever she really was) because she nursed Jon as the rebellion finished, and most probably someone must have seen him in her company and misinterpreted the whole thing. I also think that Ashara played some part in the whole plot, but certainly not as the mother. D.R.

And since when did the KG's duties include acting as midwife to the Crown Princess's best friend? There's a good chance he got wrong information. Unreliable narrator, remember?

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If I took a drink for everytime someone asked that question and you had to answer it thusly, well, I'd be in the hospital getting my stomach pumped.

It should be stickied at the top of every page in the RLJ thread.

On a related note, "Jon got burn when fighting the wight." :bang:

Hahahahaha, I've read those damn too many times too, although surely not as many as you have. They drive me nuts all the same. D.R.

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And since when did the KG's duties include acting as midwife to the Crown Princess's best friend? There's a good chance he got wrong information. Unreliable narrator, remember?

That's why I said that I THINK of it as definitive prove. It needs confirmation, and then we will KNOW, hehehehe. Also, if we were to doubt all the narrations, then we might as well doubt all the renditions of events we have not seen in a POV for certain. Why would Barristan think of the child as a daughter for certain and not simply as a genderless child? I find it extremely queer information, and unnecessary if what Martin wants is keep the mystery about Jon's parentage going. Also, it would give some footing to certain theory about Quaithe being a Dayne... sounded crazy to me, but it's possible. D.R.

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That's why I said that I THINK of it as definitive prove. It needs confirmation, and then we will KNOW, hehehehe. Also, if we were to doubt all the narrations, then we might as well doubt all the renditions of events we have not seen in a POV for certain. Why would Barristan think of the child as a daughter for certain and not simply as a genderless child? I find it extremely queer information, and unnecessary if what Martin wants is keep the mystery about Jon's parentage going. Also, it would give some footing to certain theory about Quaithe being a Dayne... sounded crazy to me, but it's possible. D.R.

Because if N+A=J, the easiest way for her to deflect suspicion is to say that she had a stillborn female child, which was really a live male child and then fake her own death. Actually, the theory is that N+A="Aegon" and Lemore=Ashara. I don't buy it, but those pieces fit. As for Barristan, it's a "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear" case. Even though we are inside Barristan's head, he most definitely did not see the corpse.

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not sure if anyone has asked the question Why would a Baratheon bastard need to be so hidden, even if and especially from Robert himself? Cersei was not involved at this point, and it can't be known that she would go after bastards yet? We have proof that other bastards live (Mya Stone, Gendry, Edric Storm) that are of both high (protected) blood and low blood as well, that span perhaps a decade between births though Cersei has certainly gone after a few (years later, in King's Landing).

I don't see it. There is the argument of ascension, but that only becomes an argument years (decade?) later after the litter turns out to be all 3 cuckoos born of incest. No reason for Lyanna to ask anything of Ned if the baby is Robert's, unless it was due to the vicinity of fighting/war/conflicting and shifting allegiances and simply needing the baby removed. Even as Ned's bastard nephew, would the identity need to be hidden? A Winterfell (Lyanna's) bastard having to be hidden and unacknowledged , or given false parentage by Ned... for what reason? To protect Lyanna's reputation, even after death?

I don't see a compelling reason for the secrecy if JS is Lyanna's son by way of Baratheon. But by Rhaegar? If Robert would kill innocent children begat upon his hated wife, what would he do if the son of the enemy begat a child on the one woman he loved, or seen differently, if his love betrayed him for, or was forced by Rhaegar? I don't think Robert Baratheon would have been a drunken joke of a king then, but either fully broken, or much more brutal.

I smell herring.

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My only issue with the R+L=J thing is the assumption that Lyanna must have loved Rhaegar, because that's totally why she ran off to let her brother be strangled to death while her father was burned. Slowly. Oh, and then not explaining matters when her brother and fiancee started a war. I find the idea that Rhaegar was so obsessed witn prophecy that he kidnapped and raped her until she was impregnated far more plausible.

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not sure if anyone has asked the question Why would a Baratheon bastard need to be so hidden, even if and especially from Robert himself? Cersei was not involved at this point, and it can't be known that she would go after bastards yet? We have proof that other bastards live (Mya Stone, Gendry, Edric Storm) that are of both high (protected) blood and low blood as well, that span perhaps a decade between births though Cersei has certainly gone after a few (years later, in King's Landing).

I don't see it. There is the argument of ascension, but that only becomes an argument years (decade?) later after the litter turns out to be all 3 cuckoos born of incest. No reason for Lyanna to ask anything of Ned if the baby is Robert's, unless it was due to the vicinity of fighting/war/conflicting and shifting allegiances and simply needing the baby removed. Even as Ned's bastard nephew, would the identity need to be hidden? A Winterfell (Lyanna's) bastard having to be hidden and unacknowledged , or given false parentage by Ned... for what reason? To protect Lyanna's reputation, even after death?

I don't see a compelling reason for the secrecy if JS is Lyanna's son by way of Baratheon. But by Rhaegar? If Robert would kill innocent children begat upon his hated wife, what would he do if the son of the enemy begat a child on the one woman he loved, or seen differently, if his love betrayed him for, or was forced by Rhaegar? I don't think Robert Baratheon would have been a drunken joke of a king then, but either fully broken, or much more brutal.

I smell herring.

RLJ refers to Rhaegar, not Robert. I don't think anyone is suggesting Robert + Lyanna = Jon.

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My only issue with the R+L=J thing is the assumption that Lyanna must have loved Rhaegar,

That is not an assumption that is essential to R+L=J. The only thing that is required for R+L=J to work is for Rhaegar to have slept with Lyanna, with or without her consent. That said, I do think that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and ran off with him willingly, but that is probably a subject for another thread.

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My only issue with the R+L=J thing is the assumption that Lyanna must have loved Rhaegar, because that's totally why she ran off to let her brother be strangled to death while her father was burned. Slowly. Oh, and then not explaining matters when her brother and fiancee started a war. I find the idea that Rhaegar was so obsessed witn prophecy that he kidnapped and raped her until she was impregnated far more plausible.

well, I have to disagree with you. as far as I can see it, other parties were involved in the leek of information (kind like Littlefinger nowadays) and probably the message never reached the family or the content was changed. other than that, for Lyanna to hear of Lord Rickard's and Brandon's fate would require quite some time, especially when in a hidden location. probably she heard of their fate only after "case closed".

As about Rhaegar and Lyanna running together, come on... he was a prince. he though he could do as he like! such things had happened a lot in the past. the only parameter that Rhaegar didn't predict was that the dragons were no more and as a result the former loyal families wanted a share of power...

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I have always wondered whether Ned might have told Benjen about the whole R+L=J. It would seem to me that the only person apart from Howland Reed that he could trust with a secret like this would be Benjen. I would imagine that he would want another Stark to know about this just in case something should happen to him. He obviously could not tell Catelyn so as not to implicate her in any treason and endanger her. Benjen on the other hand, being part of the NW could not be accused of treason and he would have loved Lyanna as much as Ned and would want to protect her secret and her son just as fiercely.

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I have always wondered whether Ned might have told Benjen about the whole R+L=J. It would seem to me that the only person apart from Howland Reed that he could trust with a secret like this would be Benjen. I would imagine that he would want another Stark to know about this just in case something should happen to him. He obviously could not tell Catelyn so as not to implicate her in any treason and endanger her. Benjen on the other hand, being part of the NW could not be accused of treason and he would have loved Lyanna as much as Ned and would want to protect her secret and her son just as fiercely.

I even think Benjen might have figured it out for himself. After all he was Lyanna's closest sibling and I believe he helped her elope. And really - it's not very hard to guess if you just have a good look at the characters of all persons involved. And he was in a unique position to know all participants very well.

You gave an even better reason for his going to the NW then I could think of. We know that he didn't take the black just because he was the 3rd son (he was not anyway as Brandon was already dead) or for the hell of it, but that there was a reason we will learn about. Your assuming that he could not accused of treason there actually makes a lot of sense. As a NW man he wouldn't take part in the quarrel of the realm, so if he knew about a Targ heir, it was just not his problem. Thank you for the idea.

Looking at his discussion with Jon it's clear that he was fond of the boy, but also that he really wanted him for NW. It would take danger away from Ned and the Starks. Still, I think he was reacting too harshly when he rejected Jon's wish to go on a ranging with him. Sure, he had to do that, but I didn't really understand the seeming callousness. Donal Noye made a much better job of showing Jon the error of his ways. Hmm, maybe he was afraid of showing favorism? Inquiring minds want to know.

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I have always wondered whether Ned might have told Benjen about the whole R+L=J. It would seem to me that the only person apart from Howland Reed that he could trust with a secret like this would be Benjen. I would imagine that he would want another Stark to know about this just in case something should happen to him. He obviously could not tell Catelyn so as not to implicate her in any treason and endanger her. Benjen on the other hand, being part of the NW could not be accused of treason and he would have loved Lyanna as much as Ned and would want to protect her secret and her son just as fiercely.

It's a strong possibility that - excluding Howland Reed - if Ned did indeed tell someone else, or if he had to tell someone else, it would most likely be his brother. That makes sense, to me.

Whether it's true or not, is a different story. I guess we'll find out! But, I'm perfectly content with accepting it as a "true" theory, until proven otherwise. It fits quite well.

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I even think Benjen might have figured it out for himself. After all he was Lyanna's closest sibling and I believe he helped her elope. And really - it's not very hard to guess if you just have a good look at the characters of all persons involved. And he was in a unique position to know all participants very well.

You gave an even better reason for his going to the NW then I could think of. We know that he didn't take the black just because he was the 3rd son (he was not anyway as Brandon was already dead) or for the hell of it, but that there was a reason we will learn about. Your assuming that he could not accused of treason there actually makes a lot of sense. As a NW man he wouldn't take part in the quarrel of the realm, so if he knew about a Targ heir, it was just not his problem. Thank you for the idea.

Looking at his discussion with Jon it's clear that he was fond of the boy, but also that he really wanted him for NW. It would take danger away from Ned and the Starks. Still, I think he was reacting too harshly when he rejected Jon's wish to go on a ranging with him. Sure, he had to do that, but I didn't really understand the seeming callousness. Donal Noye made a much better job of showing Jon the error of his ways. Hmm, maybe he was afraid of showing favorism? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks Ghost, but I have to admit, I only thought he might have joined the NW because he might have had knowledge of Jon's identity and was helping Ned shelter him. However, it never occured to me that he might have actually helped Lyanna elope....even though we were aware that he was very close to Lyanna, it really never occured to me.

I just imagined this scenario and put myself in Benjen's shoes for an instant; having helped his sister elope, which consequently led to her death as well as his father's and brother's and might have endangered another brother's life for sheltering a nephew that would definitely be killed if he were discovered. It just broke my heart thinking that this might be true. I mean if this were true, can you imagine the immense guilt he must have lived with? I would understand if he joined the NW for this reason alone, as a way of punishing himself. This would be a much stronger reason to join the NW, punishing himself by never having a family of his own. This just makes the story so much more tragic and heartbreaking, I really hope it doesn't turn out to be the case for Benjen's sake :crying:

In any case I love this forum, which gives us a chance to toss ideas about and come up with stuff like this.

It's a strong possibility that - excluding Howland Reed - if Ned did indeed tell someone else, or if he had to tell someone else, it would most likely be his brother. That makes sense, to me.

Whether it's true or not, is a different story. I guess we'll find out! But, I'm perfectly content with accepting it as a "true" theory, until proven otherwise. It fits quite well.

Yeah I feel the same. I will accept it for as long as there is no proof to the contrary for it makes sense. In a way, I would prefer Jon hearing about his parentage/identity from his uncle instead of a complete stranger like Howland Reed :)

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I even think Benjen might have figured it out for himself. After all he was Lyanna's closest sibling and I believe he helped her elope. And really - it's not very hard to guess if you just have a good look at the characters of all persons involved. And he was in a unique position to know all participants very well.

You gave an even better reason for his going to the NW then I could think of. We know that he didn't take the black just because he was the 3rd son (he was not anyway as Brandon was already dead) or for the hell of it, but that there was a reason we will learn about. Your assuming that he could not accused of treason there actually makes a lot of sense. As a NW man he wouldn't take part in the quarrel of the realm, so if he knew about a Targ heir, it was just not his problem. Thank you for the idea.

Looking at his discussion with Jon it's clear that he was fond of the boy, but also that he really wanted him for NW. It would take danger away from Ned and the Starks. Still, I think he was reacting too harshly when he rejected Jon's wish to go on a ranging with him. Sure, he had to do that, but I didn't really understand the seeming callousness. Donal Noye made a much better job of showing Jon the error of his ways. Hmm, maybe he was afraid of showing favorism? Inquiring minds want to know.

Benjen wasn't the third son after Brandon died, but by then Ned already had an heir - Robb, which put him even further outside the line of succession. I think that probably contributed to Benjen's decision as much as anything, but I think it's also possible he knew something about Lyanna's disappearance/elopement. There hasn't been any information about how and where Rhaegar met up with Lyanna, so either she slipped out of Winterfell or Rhaeger got into Winterfell without anyone noticing. I think an accomplice would probably be needed for that...like maybe a little brother who turned a blind eye to someone's comings or goings. If his involvement in that plot made him feel guilty because it indirectly led to Lyanna's death, a war and a orphaned bastard nephew, I could see where he may have given his life to the NW because he felt remorse and wanted to atone.

I also agree that he may have wanted Jon to eventually join the NW because it would have taken some of the pressure off Ned - bearing the burden of lies and secrets, and Catelyn who resented Jon's presence in Winterfell.

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Bloodraven said he watched Bran’s birth and Ned’s, too. Bran I can understand because he was waiting for another human greenseer, but why Ned’s? Not just for Ned being Bran’s father, or he would have mentioned Cat’s, too. But he didn’t. So why Ned’s and not just Bran’s?

And if he watched those two’s births, mightn’t he have watched Jon’s as well?

Bloodraven has to know the whole story. And I’m betting Bran will eventually learn it, too.

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