What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Tagganaro]

Ok, looking through the book now. Here's the relevant quotes from ACOK during the dinner.

Tyrion thinks " She truly believes I mean to kill my own nephew...If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her". All this thinking is in light of Tyrion trying "to reach for the voice of his father" and being uncaring and heavy as stone.

Then in response to Alalaya being hurt, Tyrion is clearly extremely angry. He thinks "a bloody kiss is more than I deserve...She would never have been hurt but for me". Then Tyrion makes his final threat by saying "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this." So clearly Tyrion is really angry about Alayaya being hurt.

He also thinks "I ought to have seen this coming the first time I slipped through the back of Chataya's wardrobe. Perhaps he had not wanted to see"

He also thinks later on "I'm protecting your wretched bastard as well as I can, Cersei, he thought bitterly. See you do the same for Alayaya." Clearly, Tyrion cares for Alayaya's health.

This is made even more obvious by his thoughts turning to her right away after he wakes up in the hospital bed. He finds out about her being whipped, and then thinks "She was learning to read...Across his face the scar stretched tight, and for a moment it felt as if though his head would burst with rage. Alayaya was a whore, true enough, but a sweeter, braver, more innocent girl he had seldom met."

Then he thinks about whipping Tommen, which makes him think he might vomit, then finds out he doesn't have Tommen anymore, and he thinks "Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen".

So, I think the text makes it pretty clear that 1) Tyrion does really care about Alayaya and 2) That Tyrion never had any intention of whipping Tommen but only wanted to protect Alayaya. Either way, Tyrion was extremely mad when he heard Alayaya was whipped and thinks that maybe he might have to whip Tommen now as a result, which makes him sick, but then he is relieved to find out he won't have to do it anyway.

[Alexia]

Either way, Tyrion was extremely mad when he heard Alayaya was whipped and thinks that maybe he might have to whip Tommen now as a result, which makes him sick, but then he is relieved to find out he won't have to do it anyway.

Exactly. Tyrion seriously considers whipping an 8 year old child ('scuse me, Cersei's bastard his nephew) to send a message to the child's mother for something the child didn't do. That is pretty damned sick.

[Ice Turtle]

There was a little Princess who owned a black kitten.....she didn't fair very well.

It's more scary that he have three kittens. Three kittens, three children...yeah, things don't look too good for Cersei's children. Even if Aegon not being Aegon is somehow ruining this math.

[Tagganaro]

Exactly. Tyrion seriously considers whipping an 8 year old child ('scuse me, Cersei's bastard his nephew) to send a message to the child's mother for something the child didn't do. That is pretty damned sick.

Yeah of course it's sick, but he doesn't really have much of a choice if he's serious about protecting Alayaya.. He thinks about it because he feels very protective of her (which is a good thing that does not make him evil at all imo). Cersei has kind of put him in a lose-lose situation. What could he do hear that would be morally acceptable to you?

He can either just be like "Oh well, Alayaya was a whore anyway who deserved anything that comes to her" or he can do the right thing imo and pretend to be willing to whip Tommen in order to try and spare her. Would he be willing to do it because he promised Cersei he would if she unneccesarily harmed Alayaya (which she did)? Yeah he seems to have been willing to do it, but as the text shows he's certainly glad the decision was taken away from him.

His reason for doing it isn't to harm Cersei. It's to protect Alayaya.

[Daenerys Faithful Servant]

Yeah of course it's sick, but he doesn't really have much of a choice if he's serious about protecting Alayaya.. He thinks about it because he feels very protective of her (which is a good thing that does not make him evil at all imo). Cersei has kind of put him in a lose-lose situation. What could he do hear that would be morally acceptable to you?

He can either just be like "Oh well, Alayaya was a whore anyway who deserved anything that comes to her" or he can do the right thing imo and pretend to be willing to whip Tommen in order to try and spare her. Would he be willing to do it because he promised Cersei he would if she unneccesarily harmed Alayaya (which she did)? Yeah he seems to have been willing to do it, but as the text shows he's certainly glad the decision was taken away from him.

His reason for doing it isn't to harm Cersei. It's to protect Alayaya.

Threatening to harm his nephew and making Cersei believe it is protecting Alayaya, a willingness to see through on that threat after harm has been carried out against Alayaya has to do with getting even with Cersei no matter who he has to hurt. His appreciation for the fact that now he doesn't have to (I must have missed UnCat putting a rope around his neck) wipe Tommen because Tywin stopped the bickering between him and Cersei has nothing to do with Alayaya. The poor woman was already caught between the Lannister children, why reminding Tywin of his father's weakness, and suffered grievously for that, Tyrion doing equal harm to Tommen wouldn't change that, or give the woman a sense of peace, so how exactly was such an act going to protect her?

It was Tyrion's willingness to provoke Cersei (which is a lot like provoking a caged animal that all the animals have the natural instinct to stay away from) why pursuing an ill-advised "relationship" that was built entirely on the concept that one person was paying the other to behave in a manner that was appealing that lead to Alayaya being harmed. He knew getting caught up in things with Shae (which were far more simply than he wanted to believe) why pushing Cersei into doing something stupid was always going to end poorly and his only solution for this was destroy the life of his nephew that way, if nothing else, he could still hold onto the fact that he outplayed his sister.

[mediocre cheese]

But Alayaya has already been whipped. Whipping Tommen after the fact won't protect her, and the reason he's considering whipping him is because if he doesn't "Cersei wins", not because he believes that Alayaya will face further retribution if he doesn't. If anything if Tywin finds out Alayaya was the reason his grandson was whipped she would likely have been tortured to death.

Look at the wording, its clear he was going to whip him, not simply he was pretending. If he is making empty threats as you are saying he is, he should be delighted that Tywin took Tommen, as that meant his empty threat would never be exposed. Instead its a "blow", which if it was simply an empty threat it wouldn't be at all but its also a relief because he is "fond of Tommen" not a relief because he does not have to make desicion, relief because he is fond of Tommen. Its a relief that a eight year old boy that he is fond of won't be whipped, because he doesn't have the ability too.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Exactly. Tyrion seriously considers whipping an 8 year old child ('scuse me, Cersei's bastard his nephew)

Actually, Tommen is Tyrion’s double nephew. The uncle–nephew relationship is normally only half that of parent–child, but by doubling it you bring it back to the same degree of consanguinity. That means that, strange as it sounds, Tyrion is just as related to Tommen as he is to a non-incestuous sibling, parent, or child. Very odd.

• 1/1: identical twin
  
• 1/2: parent/child, brother/sister, double uncle/nephew
  
• 1/4: uncle/nephew, grandfather/grandson, double first cousins
  
• 1/8: first cousins, greatgrandfather/greatgrandson, granduncle/grandnephew
  
• 1/16: first cousins once removed, double second cousins
  
• 1/32: second cousins, first cousins twice removed
  

Jamie and Cersei aren’t just siblings: they’re also double second cousins (same greatgrandparents). That means they’re related to each other more than normal siblings are.

Joffrey and Tommen aren’t just siblings: they’re also double first cousins (same grandparents) and also double second cousins (same greatgrandparents), too. So at 13/16 related, Joffrey and Tommen should look really rather alike, much moreso than normal siblings are apt to.

This is precisely the mechanism that makes for “the Targaryen look” in the reinforced Targaryen bloodlines — and why they did it.

[Tagganaro]

But Alayaya has already been whipped. Whipping Tommen after the fact won't protect her, and the reason he's considering whipping him is because if he doesn't "Cersei wins", not because he believes that Alayaya will face further retribution if he doesn't. If anything if Tywin finds out Alayaya was the reason his grandson was whipped she would likely have been tortured to death.

Look at the wording, its clear he was going to whip him, not simply he was pretending. If he is making empty threats as you are saying he is, he should be delighted that Tywin took Tommen, as that meant his empty threat would never be exposed. Instead its a "blow", which if it was simply an empty threat it wouldn't be at all but its also a relief because he is "fond of Tommen" not a relief because he does not have to make desicion, relief because he is fond of Tommen. Its a relief that a eight year old boy that he is fond of won't be whipped, because he doesn't have the ability too.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make. Tyrion is relieved that he doesn't have to make a decision about whipping Tommen because he's fond of him.

I don't think the wording necessarily makes clear that he was definitely going to whip Tommen. It shows that he really didn't want to even think about it or make a decision.

I think the blow to Tyrion is that he no longer has Tommen as a "hostage" to threaten Cersei with, as he's convinced she's trying to have him killed.

Tyrion pretty much tells his father this afterwards. He says he would never harm Tommen, and that a good threat is more telling than a good blow"

I think he wanted the perceived threat of Tommen being hurt to hang over Cersei, since he's convinced she's trying to get him killed.

[Alexia]

If Tyrion had opened his mouth up and told Cersei that Alayaya was not his whore, instead of deciding to use her to protect Shae and to try to dominate Cersei, Alayaya would never have been hurt. Tyrion wantonly endangers her by letting Cersei believe that she is someone she is not but its okay because he tried to ensure her safety by threatening to rape an 8 year old child -- himself?

Tyrion plays the part of a monster quite well; no wonder everyone thinks he is one. Alayaya is like Shae, a bone caught between two nasty dogs. And she paid the price.

[mediocre cheese]

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make. Tyrion is relieved that he doesn't have to make a decision about whipping Tommen because he's fond of him.

This is one way to interpret it, I felt it was clear he is relieved because he doesn't have to whip Tommen.

Tyrion pretty much tells his father this afterwards. He says he would never harm Tommen, and that a good threat is more telling than a good blow"

Well he had to say that. If he told Tywin "yeah I was considering whipping Tommen, hadn't really decided yet" I imagine Tywin would have reacted negatively.

[Tagganaro]

This is one way to interpret it, I felt it was clear he is relieved because he doesn't have to whip Tommen.

Well he had to say that. If he told Tywin "yeah I was considering whipping Tommen, hadn't really decided yet" I imagine Tywin would have reacted negatively.

yeah true. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he was actually willing to whip Tommen, I'm just gonna choose to intrepret it as him not being willing to whip Tommen, because the alternative is not nice to think about haha.

[Tagganaro]

If Tyrion had opened his mouth up and told Cersei that Alayaya was not his whore, instead of deciding to use her to protect Shae and to try to dominate Cersei, Alayaya would never have been hurt. Tyrion wantonly endangers her by letting Cersei believe that she is someone she is not but its okay because he tried to ensure her safety by threatening to rape an 8 year old child -- himself?

Tyrion plays the part of a monster quite well; no wonder everyone thinks he is one. Alayaya is like Shae, a bone caught between two nasty dogs. And she paid the price.

I'm not saying it was "ok" to even threaten Tommen in the first place (even if he meant it, which I don't think he did), I'm just saying Cersei kind of forced him to do it (in his mind at least) if he wanted to protect both Shae and Alayaya. What would telling Cersei that Alayaya wasn't his whore do? Cersei knew that Tyrion was paying constant visits to Alayaya so he really can't deny anything, and if he does I'm sure she'd torture Alayaya to find the truth of that anyway.

So yes, the act of endangering Alayaya in the first place is wrong, but there's really nothing Tyrion can do once Cersei has found out about Alayaya/

[Silent_Hero]

I think the Lannister siblings will bring down House Lannister just like their dad brought down those two houses," The Rains of Castamere",how fitting.

[Alexia]

I'm not saying it was "ok" to even threaten Tommen in the first place (even if he meant it, which I don't think he did), I'm just saying Cersei kind of forced him to do it (in his mind at least) if he wanted to protect both Shae and Alayaya. What would telling Cersei that Alayaya wasn't his whore do? Cersei knew that Tyrion was paying constant visits to Alayaya so he really can't deny anything, and if he does I'm sure she'd torture Alayaya to find the truth of that anyway.

So yes, the act of endangering Alayaya in the first place is wrong, but there's really nothing Tyrion can do once Cersei has found out about Alayaya/

If Tyrion laughed in Cersei's face and told her Alayaya wasn't his whore, there's little that Cersei can do. She wants a hostage to protect Tommen (and I'd say he forced her to snatch Alayaya when he kidnapped her child) but if he laughs at her and acts like he doesn't care, it wouldn't have been worth it to hold Alayaya.

And frankly, I have two children of my own. In Cersei's shoes, I would have carved Tyrion up like a Thanksgiving turkey for saying that. And I would have grabbed Alayaya too, in response to Tommen's kidnapping. I feel much more empathy towards Cersei than I do towards Tyrion in their struggle for dominance over each other (and in later events with respect to her phobia of him) because Tyrion poisons her, he threatens to rape her young child, he is constantly threatening Joffrey's life (not that Joff doesn't deserve it), he sent Myrcella off to the Martells (*cringe*), he tortured Maester Pycelle for no reason other than telling Cersei that Myrcella was being sent into the hands of enemies, et cetera, et cetera.

Quite frankly, it is a small mercy that Tywin didn't have Alayaya killed in response to Tyrion's hideous threats against Tommen. And it sucks for poor Alayaya, because she took the scourging that Tyrion earned.

[tyrion84]

the following order and methods of offing the Lannisters:

1st Tommen die, he is a sweet boy however weak and dies of the flux.

2nd although I think Myrcella’s might survive, she's going to die from an infection caught down in the wiper infested Dorne

3rd Jamie he's not yet done redoing some of his familys evil doing, and undead Catlyn want's her children, but live by the sword die by the sword

4th Tyrion unfortunately my lucky dwarf is doomed probably after making some dumb misstake he cannot sweet talk his way out of.

5th Cersei yes she's doomed and will die a grusome death but she will also suffer to be the last of her kin when all is lost and everyone and everything she held dear is gone

[Jennavere]

Exactly. Tyrion seriously considers whipping an 8 year old child ('scuse me, Cersei's bastard his nephew) to send a message to the child's mother for something the child didn't do. That is pretty damned sick.

This is sick. But he is dealing with a batshit crazy woman.....Cersei!!!!!!!! The only thing she responds to is threats against herself/power and her children. I dont see any choice for Tyrion in this situation. You are correct in other posts that he could have just told Cersei that Alayaya was not his whore, but Cersei would have just found Shea and done horrible things to her. However, if she is threatened in regards to her kids, she usually backs down. As for Tyrion actually whipping Tommen, (I cant believe I am even thinking this, but its in context to the book plot) If he had, it would have been the only way to stop Cersei from torturing every whore in KL to find Tyrion's weak spots. She really is that evil. I also believe that bullies only respond to being bullied, which is what he was attempting. I do not believe admitting Alayaya wasnt his whore would have mattered at that point. He had shown human concern for her so Cersei would have continued mistreating her or threatening to, just because she knows that Tyrion really does have the heart that she doesnt, and that would hurt.

Tyrion is extremely depressed in ADWD, drunk most of the time, hurting with the news of Tysha, the betrayal by his family regarding Joffrey, and he just killed his dad(who deserved it, sorry). He is not evil. Just pushed to the brink and actually being the cartoonish version of himself is kind of his own ironic way of dealing with the injustice he has been dealt recently. Its just his most flamboyant version of sarcasm I think. He didnt really mean he would rape Cersei, but If she were my sister I would say some VERY ugly things about her too, including torture fantasy, if I had been living his life.

I think Tyrion is going to be the only Lannister to come out of this better as a person, and hopefully with Casterly Rock. I think ADWD is his rock bottom moment. From here on out he is going to have more purpose. At least Im rooting for this. I just think he had to be brought to his lowest point in order to build him up.

[Laird of Boulton]

Actually, Tommen is Tyrion’s double nephew. The uncle–nephew relationship is normally only half that of parent–child, but by doubling it you bring it back to the same degree of consanguinity.

But of course, Tyrion was Tywin's son. His only son. Jaime and Cersei were Targ bastards, so Tommen was only a double-half-nephew.

[Alexia]

I start a thread for you and then don't answer your post; I suck. :(

Lemme get something straight here in all of this. You obviously think Dany will make it to Westeros, but you think Sansa will be queen and Dany more of a warrior and even a tool of Tyrion to achieve his end? Basically you think the story will end with Dany harrying Westeros but not winning the throne?

I think Dany's storyline will be tied to the defeat of the Others, and she will die a heroic death in battle against them.

Cersei- I totally see her going to Casterly Rock. I completely agree with that as that is where her power base has shifted. Do you think Tommen will make it to the Rock or die at the hand of someone in KL? (eg. Varys is that bad-ass?)

I really don't know. Killing Tommen would destroy the Lannister and Tyrell alliance and hold on KL, especially with Myrcella in Dorne. It is possible that Tommen, Myrcella, and Cersei will all flee for the Rock but I think its a good chance that he might die and then Cersei runs. I'm not sure that the valonquar prophecy will even happen, tbh, but I think she's right about it being Tyrion by now. Jaime thought about killing her in his jealous sexual rage, and decided against it for the sake of the kids.

Cersei already felt guilt and shame over Sansa. Reread her Great Nude Parade, and you can see it.

Speaking of freaky barbarians, what about Victarion? Won't he be quite the chink in Tyrion's plans?

Victarion is like Quentyn, a walking plot device. A far more entertaining plot device, but nonetheless, a plot device. While Quentyn freed the dragons, and is the impetus for emnity between Dorne and Dany, I'm not sure what Victarion will do. But he has some purpose to fulfill, probably involving his horn, before he gets fried by dragon.

Jaime- But.....I don't want him to be dead! LOL I like his chapters...and what about poor Brienne? Where does she fit into that scene? You do raise some compelling points that make sense for him exiting the story though. That would be a bold move......And wouldn't that also mean that Lady Stoneheart and the fucking BWB win again? I sooo hate them. I'm so tired of all these zombies. So I guess you don't subscribe to any sort of theory surrounding the "Scooby gang".

Pure speculation, but my theory ftw. Jaime gets hanged off camera by the BwB (I hate you Jaime, but I'll still miss your POVs). Brienne, Pod, and Ser Hyle are now stuck with unCatelyn. Sansa and LF come traveling to the riverlands and make it to Orphan Inn. The BwB scoops them up, and Sansa watches as unCat hangs LF for lying to her about the dagger. Sansa freaks. Brienne, Pod, and Ser Hyle help her sneak away at night, and Brienne decides to flee to the QI. Where a certain tall man with a covered face is busy digging graves...

One other question. How do you think Aegon will fit into all of this?

My theories: 1) He marries Sansa and makes her a queen. 2) He marries Myrcella, crowning her before her death. 3) He dies a sad and heroic death in battle against the Others after uniting the realm against them. 4) Mad Daenerys Kinslayer fries him by dragon.

[Tagganaro]

If Tyrion laughed in Cersei's face and told her Alayaya wasn't his whore, there's little that Cersei can do. She wants a hostage to protect Tommen (and I'd say he forced her to snatch Alayaya when he kidnapped her child) but if he laughs at her and acts like he doesn't care, it wouldn't have been worth it to hold Alayaya.

And frankly, I have two children of my own. In Cersei's shoes, I would have carved Tyrion up like a Thanksgiving turkey for saying that. And I would have grabbed Alayaya too, in response to Tommen's kidnapping. I feel much more empathy towards Cersei than I do towards Tyrion in their struggle for dominance over each other (and in later events with respect to her phobia of him) because Tyrion poisons her, he threatens to rape her young child, he is constantly threatening Joffrey's life (not that Joff doesn't deserve it), he sent Myrcella off to the Martells (*cringe*), he tortured Maester Pycelle for no reason other than telling Cersei that Myrcella was being sent into the hands of enemies, et cetera, et cetera.

Quite frankly, it is a small mercy that Tywin didn't have Alayaya killed in response to Tyrion's hideous threats against Tommen. And it sucks for poor Alayaya, because she took the scourging that Tyrion earned.

They both have a lot to answer for in terms of their interactions. Cersei is also somewhat despicable- She abused Tyrion as a baby for enjoyment, and she was threatening Tyrion's life from the moment he entered King's Landing.

Tywin told him to and ordered him to gain control over Cersei and Joffrey. Obviously it wasn't going to end well between them. I blame Tywin for being a sociopath for his children's problems to be honest, and there's certainly no minimum of hatred between Cersei and Tyrion. Cersei is the one who makes things violent between them. Not Tyrion.

Tywin actually praises Tyrion for the Dornish alliance. He would have done something similar with Cersei/Myrcella anyway.

Why would Cersei believe Tyrion if she knew Tyrion was going to visit Alayaya? Him laughing in her face, Cersei would 100% torture Alayaya to find out the truth about Shae.

[CrypticWeirwood]

But of course, Tyrion was Tywin's son. His only son. Jaime and Cersei were Targ bastards, so Tommen was only a double-half-nephew.

I find it rather more likely that Jamie and Cersei are double Lannisters and Tyrion Aerys’s bastard. (There are 7 pieces of evidence for this.)

But you’re right: he’d still be a double-half-uncle, so the double and the half cancel each other and that puts us back to a 1/4, as though he were a regular uncle. How very very weird!

Oh wait. It’s a bit more than that. Joanna and Tywin are first cousins, so their children are also double second cousins. That adds back +1/16 to it if Tyrion and Jaimie and Cersei are full siblings, or half of that if Tyrion is only their half-brother.

Eep.

It’s no wonder Bloodraven and Egg just call each other cousin, since working out all the tiny details in a multiply incestuous/inbred family is danged complicated.