Sandor Clegane 5

[Alexia]

Cont. from Sandor 4

Well, his family did have a maester (referenced during the burns) so it is possible that he is literate, I suppose. I believe Maester Luwin was in charge of educating the boys at Winterfell and Septa Mordane the girls.

Do we ever hear if Gregor gets written orders, or only verbal? Gregor's so dim one wonders if he's even capable of reading.

[1234567]

He was also a second son with nothing to inherit, so early on in his life especially after the disfigurement it is possible that his father may have thought about sending him to the Cidatel for training as a Maester.

Also GRRM has said he liked stories when he was little so may have had access to books and an interest in stories would encourage him to read.

[headtrip_honey]

Cont. from Sandor 4

Well, his family did have a maester (referenced during the burns) so it is possible that he is literate, I suppose. I believe Maester Luwin was in charge of educating the boys at Winterfell and Septa Mordane the girls.

Do we ever hear if Gregor gets written orders, or only verbal? Gregor's so dim one wonders if he's even capable of reading.

With Gregor, he may have learned the basics of letters/reading, but I doubt he's very literate. Doubtful he writes his own letters, and I'd bet his reading is slow. And because of that, he probably has people read things to him. I say this not because I think he's dumb (I think he's quite cunning, actually), but because I doubt he has the patience for something he would see as worthless.

Now Sandor I can see as 1. having more patience (but not much) and 2. having time for it. While he was recuperating from his burns, who knows, maybe he read to stave off boredom! Not counting on it, but it's possible.

[Alexia]

Why would his father consider that? Sandor was still a big kid, with both eyes working and no physical impairment caused by the disfigurement (except being ugly). He could still grow up to be a knight, marry a noblewoman, and have a decent life. He was apparently fantasizing about his future as a knight at that point still -- and apparently kept doing so until Gregor was knighted.

In ADWD

Lady Dustin says that a lot of lords are illiterate. It seems that illiteracy is the rule rather than the exception except at the highest levels (the Stark children).

I don't know, I just really like the idea of Sansa teaching Sandor to read. :lol:

[Tagganaro]

Haha. No way he can read. Way too dumb.

BTW, on that note can he even talk and carry on conversation? He seems to really dislike people even talking (Oberyn, Pia, Innkeep and daughter). Have we ever seen or heard him have an extended communication or conversation with anyone?

[headtrip_honey]

I don't know, I just really like the idea of Sansa teaching Sandor to read. :lol:

Okay, that visual makes me laugh.

[littlespider]

Also GRRM has said he liked stories when he was little so may have had access to books and an interest in stories would encourage him to read.

Where did GRRM say this? Interesting point.

I'm pretty sure he can read: they had a maester. So far the only explicitly illiterate person that we've seen is Davos, who was not raised in a noble family but is an upjumped knight. And I am pretty sure Davos' sons can read.

[headtrip_honey]

Haha. No way he can read. Way too dumb.

Quiet =/= dumb

There are different kinds of intelligence. I'd say that Gregor is definitely intelligent, but he's not scholarly by any means. He's cunning, vicious, and calculating.

Re-read about how he and Tickler et al interrogated the villagers. That's not the work of an idiot.

[Alexia]

I think Gregor is a dim as a block of stone. He's vicious, for sure, and he's cunning, but you release him with general orders and hope all goes well. For example, had Loras been sent instead of Lord Beric no way would Gregor have restrained himself from killing him -- which would have sent the Tyrells in on the Stark side of the battle.

I'm pretty sure he can read: they had a maester. So far the only explicitly illiterate person that we've seen is Davos, who was not raised in a noble family but is an upjumped knight. And I am pretty sure Davos' sons can read.

Davos' sons are being educated alongside a princess, at the court of a king/prince. Their experience isn't necessarily shared by the average knight's son throughout Westeros.

Ilyn Payne is also illiterate.

[Emrys Dragonrider]

I don't think we really do. I think he is literally keeping it real. Sandor doesn't seem like the type of person to put a lot of stock in the supernatural. I think if he saw something come to pass in TWoW he'd get pretty freaked out by it. It would be cognitive dissonance. Most of that stuff would seriously mess with a lot of character's worldviews. More particularly southern people that don't believe in "grumkins and snarks".

As for Sandor and the virginity thing, I'm going to guess that it wouldn't bother him that much if she wanted to be with him. Considering the dude has probably had to pay for it every other time. It would bug him if she was raped in CreepyVale, and he would probably want to go and cut said guy's dick off. I'm not articulating this well. I mean to say that aspect of it wouldn't be an issue, but I can see his own hangups, such as his lack of self-worth, not feeling like he was good enough for her, maybe being a problem. Also, we don't really know what his fantasy of her is, since we're not in his head an he's never articulated it. I'm sure he has one, but we're left speculating. (I think it's safe to assume from his comments that it involves fucking her)

And now I can't remember the other point I wanted to talk to. bleh. OK I remember. I was just thinking that it must really, really suck for people that have been following this series from the beginning in the 90s, or even several books ago. I'm lucky that I came to it as late as I did and got to burn through 5 books. That has taken some people like 15 years.....I can't imagine that. Now I face the prospect of waiting too, and start to get all crabby, but then I have to remember everyone else. Waiting even 2 years for the next one, if we are lucky, really is the blink of an eye in comparison. I often wonder if some people have just given up. I've followed fantasy for several years, and this is by far the slowest series I've encountered.

I have been reading the series since the second book came out and turned on both my daughters to it (they were in middle school then) plus a few others (share the love). Before finding it I tried reading 'The Wheel of Time' by Robert Jordan but gave up on it as all they were doing were fussing among themselves and doing nothing to move any plot forward. I have been told that the new author is doing much better but now I am spoiled. GRR Martin's characters, big arc story and world building are intricate. The characters are flawed and very human. No one is perfect. Everyone has been wounded and is trying to survive and live as they can.

Sandor is, to me, the best example. His character is evolving. He is physically able to do just about anything. His past actions, many at the orders of his employers, were violent and wrong. He was focused on killing Gregor but when he came face to face with someone who still believed (naively) in goodness (Sansa) but saw the world she had built in her own head fall and burn, leaving her alone and unprotected, he was forced to confront his own actions. He knew what he had done was wrong and hated himself for what he had become.

After the Battle of the Black Water when he had faced the fire for as long as he could, he broke. He instinctively sought out Sansa, wanting to get both himself and her away from King's Landing and both their enemies. He desperately wanted to communicate all this to her but his emotional state (fear) and his insecurities made that impossible. If she had not sung to him he probably would have raped her, not from wanting to hurt her, but in his desire for her and wanting her to go with him, to posses her. In saying this, I do not excuse him for his impulse to rape her but I am saying he chose not to. He realised it would be wrong. He would take some of her last remaining innocense and he would be guilty in his own eyes. So he left her as he couldn't get her to come with him.

Sansa is important to him as he becomes the man he would have been before Gregor burned him. He could be a great and noble warrior. It isn't really important for them to have a future together, it does appeal to the squee in me, but I think he may have a different path besides just to kill Un-Gregor.

I like the idea of him being AA and maybe Gendry will forge Lightbringer (what else is there for Gendry to be hanging around for), I need to go and research. I don't think Sandor will live happily ever after but he will have his own songs, even if they are wrong about the facts and sad.

Sansa may have to remain in her social level and play The Game. LF is teaching her the fine points. I believe she will realize she has the power herself and bring about his downfall. Who does Sweet Robin love? Sansa. If Sansa says LF should die, who will stop the men of The Vale from carrying out his orders? Can you tell I am not a LF fan? He is an interesting character but one I want to see fall. And I want Sansa to be responsible.

[mediocre cheese]

Illyn payne can't read and he is a knight. By contrast Jorah can read and bear island isn't a exactly a center of culture, so I imagine most lords can read. And every lord and lady other than the umbers who is on roose's side can sign their names.

How did Ramsay snow learn how to read? Didn't he live with his mother/reek (who were commoners) until he was well past the age most lords become literate?

[Lemon Cake]

Another indication that Sandor can read is in ASoS, when he paid the ferrymen with the promissory note he got from the BwB, after they rowed him and Arya across the river. He seemed to know exactly what the note said. Of course, I suppose it's possible the BwB could have just told him what it said, but Sandor seemed to be aware of exactly what was written in the note, as if he'd read it himself.

Not that that's conclusive evidence or anything, but I think it's one more thing that adds some credence to the assertion that he's literate.

[Alexia]

Another indication that Sandor can read is in ASoS, when he paid the ferrymen with the promissory note he got from the BwB, after they rowed him and Arya across the river. He seemed to know exactly what the note said. Of course, I suppose it's possible the BwB could have just told him what it said, but Sandor seemed to be aware of exactly what was written in the note, as if he'd read it himself.

Not that that's conclusive evidence or anything, but I think it's one more thing that adds some credence to the assertion that he's literate.

Darn you for poking holes in my theory. :crying:

Doesn't he ask the BwB what it is at first, when they hand it to him? I always like to think of that note and the others the BwB were distributing as the start of paper money in the riverlands...

[Black Amethyst]

Cont. from Sandor 4

Well, his family did have a maester (referenced during the burns) so it is possible that he is literate, I suppose. I believe Maester Luwin was in charge of educating the boys at Winterfell and Septa Mordane the girls.

Do we ever hear if Gregor gets written orders, or only verbal? Gregor's so dim one wonders if he's even capable of reading.

No, no, no. I'm sure Sandor can read. LOL Sure he's been a guard his whole life, and they aren't given a whole lot to read, but that doesn't mean he can't. He's not a commoner. There seems to be evidence that he was raised with both a maester and a septon/septa. I'm sure that he just doesn't have reading as a hobby. Gregor is a hulking brute, yeah, but he isn't THAT dumb, come on. He probably got orders by raven at various points to mobilize him where he needed to go, and he had to read them. Sending a messenger through war-torn lands is time consuming and a greater risk.

With that said. I'm sure they aren't great readers, but must have the basics surely.

[mediocre cheese]

Re-read about how he and Tickler et al interrogated the villagers. That's not the work of an idiot.

It isn't? What were they hoping to do with these interrogations? Because if they were looking for lord beric, it is the work of an idiot, torturting people who in all likelihood have no idea where lord beric is will just give you false stories and send you off on pointless goosechases. Torture doesn't work as an interrogation technique, the tortured person will just tell you what they think you want to hear so you'll stop hurting them. In the way the gregor was using it, none of the information he would have gotten from torture would have helped him find beric at all.

If his goal was simply to terrify the villagers and any information he recieved he ignored than it might have been useful, but his form of interrogation is a terrible form way to aquire information.

[headtrip_honey]

Darn you for poking holes in my theory. :crying:

Doesn't he ask the BwB what it is at first, when they hand it to him? I always like to think of that note and the others the BwB were distributing as the start of paper money in the riverlands...

I don't recall that. Direct me to the chapter?

Hey, another bit in favor of him being literate:

He catches Arya scratching her name into trees when he first takes her captive. He knows what she's doing, and makes her stop.

Now, he may not know exactly what she's writing, but there's a fair chance he does.

[headtrip_honey]

It isn't? What were they hoping to do with these interrogations? Because if they were looking for lord beric, it is the work of an idiot, torturting people who in all likelihood have no idea where lord beric is will just give you false stories and send you off on pointless goosechases. Torture doesn't work as an interrogation technique, the tortured person will just tell you what they think you want to hear so you'll stop hurting them. In the way the gregor was using it, none of the information he would have gotten from torture would have helped him find beric at all.

If his goal was simply to terrify the villagers and any information he recieved he ignored than it might have been useful, but his form of interrogation is a terrible form way to aquire information.

Just because torture isn't effective doesn't mean that only stupid people use it. :)

I meant the way he went about it. He didn't pick people randomly, or haphazardly. There was a method to his madness, as it were.

[mediocre cheese]

I thought he did pick people randomly. What exactly was the method to his madness?

[Été]

Doesn't he ask the BwB what it is at first, when they hand it to him? I always like to think of that note and the others the BwB were distributing as the start of paper money in the riverlands...

I took that as more of a "what the fuck am I meant to do this, where's my gold you bastards" than being actually unaware of what it said. If they had a maester at home, there's no reason for Gregor and Sandor not to have learned to read. I'm not saying they're going to be librarians any time soon, but I'd be really surprised if the Hound wasn't at least somewhat competent.

I've just been reading The Sworn Sword, and it's pretty much fine for a hedge knight like Dunk to be illiterate (though it's a big help having Egg on hand when the need arises), but a landed knight is going to be dealing with lords, property deeds, grants etc all the time so it's a handy skill to have.

[headtrip_honey]

I thought he did pick people randomly. What exactly was the method to his madness?

Well, for example, a mother comes forward, offering information if they'll spare her daughter. Gregor hears her out...and the next day picks her daughter, just to make sure the mother told him everything.

People are questioned in front of the other captives, so they see the consequences of not giving information.

They spare Gendry, because of his skill as a blacksmith.

I'm not saying he's a genius, by any stretch. But I do think that, especially when it comes to fighting, he has some powers of analysis and strategy.