[ADwD Spoilers] A Daenerys Character Arc Reread

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Great recap -- I will try to get mine up tonight. I quite like this chapter

I am quite curious if you have any thoughts about Dany's reflections this chapter - it seems to me she certainly does not want to murder and pillage her way through Westeros, for example.

Jorah's controlling behavior and advances towards Dany (in that strange combo of paternalistic and lecherous) begin pretty much as soon as Drogo dies. Its a shame because on one hand, Dany really did need him in Mereen IMO. He has good insights and experiences and was a good adviser with personal loyalty to her. On the other hand, his behavior is making him a liability and nullifying the benefits of his advice.

I don't think that Jorah has made any advances towards Dany. If anything it's her behavior that could be interpreted as affectionate (I'll talk more about that below). Indeed, nothing he's said or done other than the Lynesse incident is particularly revealing. He never touches her nor even looks lustfully at her, that Dany notices anyway.

What he's done is to become over protective in a way that is insulting to Dany, and she assumes (I think rightly) that its due both to his thinking she is naive (paternalistic) as well as wanting to keep her from trusting other men (possessive).

k so I want to channel Jorah for a minute here. I described earlier how I think his feelings for Dany are quite natural and not creepy unless age difference is a big problem for you. He actually does want to follow her, protect her, and bed her all with equal passion, and I believe he is totally devoted to her. He thinks she has no notion of how he feels, and probably dreads the idea of her finding out (he was pretty reticent to talk about Lynesse for example). Nothing in his behavior to me indicates he is any way calculating in his actions, or that he's trying to manipulate Dany herself. He is quite quick to mistrust those around her and to push them away - he would be thinking, it's all to protect her, she's too naive, too trusting... all of this of course to hide the fact even from himself that he mistrusts everyone at least in part becuase he fears she might turn to another instead of him. Again his problem is weakness, an inability to believe that he could be in the wrong.

Also I don't think that Jorah has a lot of hope that Dany will love him the way he does her... yet he would of course be hoping that she would, he would be looking for signs that she might love him in a non-platonic way. And oh dear... she does provide ammunition! You might as well call Dany's a Clash of Kings chapters Jorah Sitting Consumed With Lust. So far, Dany has 1. kissed him, 2. asked him about his love life with great interest, 3. touched his face gently and teased him, 4. ministered to his (strategically placed) wound herself, 5. taken both of his hands, stood close in front of him, stared deeply into his eyes, then kissed him. Would you not, if you were in love with this woman, perhaps take some of this behavior as a hopeful sign?? Now of course we know that Dany did not intend to be flirtatious - to her kissing him, touching him, is nothing that implies she wants him. She's just a physically affectionate person, and she cares for Jorah. But for Jorah it would give him cause to hope and I'm not sure she could have done more to intensify his feelings for her if she had tried! They certainly won't have to actually add any shiptease to the TV series, GRRM wrote it all in there...

There were a lot of other factors going into that, most especially that Vardis was old and a knight whereas Bronn was younger and a stone cold killer. We see Brandon Stark thinking it would be unfair to fight LF in full armor, for example.

Not to mention that Bronn was wielding a longsword, a weapon much more capable of piercing mail than Daario's boob-arakhs would be. I think Jorah vs. Daario would be pretty similar to his fight with Qotho - I doubt Daario's a stronger fighter than Drogo's bloodriders. If they fight, though, I will throw my book. It would be pure idiocy on Jorah's part (even if he wins he's dead) and just such chauvinist chest-bumping BS... :ack:

Excuse me, but have you skipped some Dany chapters cause if you did I don't blame you but I thought Dany send him in a mission to kill Yunkai and he survived without taking great losses and he even got some of the Yunkai to join him .

Not sure that Daario leading his sellswords to victory has anything to do with his fighting ability in a duel. As others pointed out he might be a great strategist or leader without being a very good fighter (see Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Dany herself). I assume Daario's at least capable, though.

[Sevumar]

Man! Qarth is crazy-huge! It sounds like it might be the largest city in the world in fact? Thoughts? I suppose it is much larger than any city in Westeros, and must be larger than Pentos, or Dany wouldn't be so impressed. Is it bigger than Meereen or Astapor? Than Volantis? The description likens it to Rome in several ways.

The description sounds more like Constantinople or one of the ancient Persian capitals to me, but that may be just because we're experiencing it as exotic through Dany's PoV. Asshai often seems described as cosmopolitan too, but we're never given any indication of its size. It could well be on par with Qarth.

Often critics say that Dany expects the 7 kingdoms just to bow down before her. She explicitly does not. Here, she assumes that Viserys was a fool for thinking that, and she'll have to fight.

It's pretty clear about halfway through AGoT that she's realized that if she wants to be the queen of the Seven Kingdoms, she's going to have to wrest them from the Iron Throne. This part of her thinking isn't new. The fact that she's finally starting to think in logistical and tactical terms is, particularly with the way the political situation has changed in Westeros.

People often use the bit I quoted as evidence that Dany hates Eddard Stark and plans to murder all his children (?? :dunno:??). If you read the entire passage it is clear that she fears Stark. There is no vitriol, only dread. Also can I say, I really enjoy that description of Ned.

I don't think she'd want to murder all of the Stark children. I'm waiting for the day when she realizes that her characterization of Ned Stark has always been wrong. It's been a long time in coming, and she's waved off a couple of chances to learn that truth. It's too bad he didn't live to see it, but that's one overarching theme of the story: characters will often never have the chance to share a last moment or receive the apologies they're due.

Her attitude toward Ned represents a major goal in the process of her character growth. It's a part of the big, difficult truth she's going to have to face: that the rebellion against her father was justified, and that if a Targaryen ever takes the throne again, there will need to be safeguards against the abuses and excesses of someone like Aerys II. She has to prove herself different from and better than Aerys if she hopes to rule.

Critics say that Dany is too trusting. She doesn't trust any of these people and explicitly says this. She is super wary, especially of Xaro whose power she is under. She explicitly assumes that he is misleading her. She is outwardly friendly to her benefactor because not to be so would be extremely (maybe people are confused that Dany is such a good actress??)

I don't see her as too trusting here, perhaps a bit too free with information, but she's doing her due diligence on the city and its various factions. She'd be in a stronger position if she didn't have to stay in Xaro's manse, but with her followers and her own instincts, she's in a much different position than she was in Pentos at the beginning of the story.

Aaand this leads me to discuss Jorah again (must we?? fraid so). He's starting to be condescending, jealous, maybe a little possessive. He is assuming that Dany is an idiot and that she is missing all the subtext. Don't get me wrong, it's good to check that she's on board but he's starting from the assumption that she's a blind fool. Dany is super forebearing with him. She's incredibly sweet in fact (probably too physically affectionate considering his feelings for her), she very kindly corrects him, repeatedly, for his treating her like a slow child. I see Jorah's side... she is after all only 15, has said naive things to him in the past, and of course she's the most precious thing in the world to him twu wuv, blah blah... He seems to have forgotten his tact in Vaes Tolorro, though.

I don't really see him as jealous or condescending this chapter. I think what we're getting in her PoV is a bit of an overreaction to him acting in line with his role as Lord Commander of the Queensguard. He's blunt, cautious, and suspicious, as he always is, but I don't see the jealousy really come into play until Barristan joins her at the end of the book.

At this point, he's still her primary source for making sense of Westerosi politics, in addition to being her main protector, adviser and military commander. She's a queen without a court or a kingdom at this stage of the story. He occasionally assumes more familiarity than is wise, but I can't really fault him for it. He has the kind of bond with Dany that soldiers who survive war together often share and a ruler/follower frame probably isn't the best way for them to relate. His feelings complicate the matter, of course, but he actually does a pretty good job of keeping his distance. He never tries to make a move until the beginning of ASoS.

I don't think he actually believes or acts as though she's a blind fool. The fact of the matter is, he's an experienced campaigner, warrior, and commander. He knows that someone has to hold the checklist and fret about the details when a large military exercise is planned, and he's doing a good job of it. I think what we're seeing in Dany's PoV is a manifestation of her confusion about his feelings toward her, and some uncertainty about her identity and her ability to see her plans through. She tends to be a bit prickly and defensive when someone references something she's aware of. I have this same trait myself so I know where she's coming from.

Dany very much subscribes to the "fake it until you make it" school of thought. We see that a lot of the time she's not as resolved or certain on the inside as the image she tries to project, and this sometimes leads to some odd doubling-down when she should relent instead.

[brashcandy]

I don't think she'd want to murder all of the Stark children. I'm waiting for the day when she realizes that her characterization of Ned Stark has always been wrong. It's been a long time in coming, and she's waved off a couple of chances to learn that truth. It's too bad he didn't live to see it, but that's one overarching theme of the story: characters will often never have the chance to share a last moment or receive the apologies they're due.

:) Sevumar, hold up. Are you suggesting that Dany owes Ned Stark an apology? What for pray tell? For thinking that he fought on in a rebellion that ousted her father? Oh, right, he did. For thinking that he was one of Robert's closest allies and friend? Oh, wait, he was. Dany does need to find out the truth of the rebellion, and perhaps then she'll come to see the situation differently, but owing Ned Stark an apology is taking it a bit too far. No one in the seven kingdoms gave a damn about Dany and Viserys, including the precious Ned Stark and that is a fact. The one thing that Ned did honorable in relation to her is when he opposed Robert's plan to have her assassinated, and yes, if Dany learns this she may indeed thank him, but she has nothing to apologize for.

Her attitude toward Ned represents a major goal in the process of her character growth. It's a part of the big, difficult truth she's going to have to face: that the rebellion against her father was justified, and that if a Targaryen ever takes the throne again, there will need to be safeguards against the abuses and excesses of someone like Aerys II. She has to prove herself different from and better than Aerys if she hopes to rule.

She does have to prove herself, but you act as though the Targaryens have been ruling KL for the past 17 yrs. It's actually been Robert and his sons and they've been disasters. I can assure you that the memory of their rule is a lot fresher in the minds of the smallfolk than Aerys'. The realm is in chaos, with people starving and suffering. The last time a Targaryen was on the throne there was prosperity across the land. I think the ordinary citizen will remember this moreso than any legend on Targaryen madness. Surely, this is what Varys and Illyrio are counting on by reintroducing Aegon - defeat the nobles and win the love of the smallfolk.

Dany very much subscribes to the "fake it until you make it" school of thought. We see that a lot of the time she's not as resolved or certain on the inside as the image she tries to project, and this sometimes leads to some odd doubling-down when she should relent instead.

Doesn't every leader basically have to operate this way though? Until you actually start to rule, you really have little idea of the harsh realities and challenges you'll have to face.

[Verboten]

Tywin was responsible for the prosperity of the Seven Kingdoms, not Aerys.

[brashcandy]

Tywin was responsible for the prosperity of the Seven Kingdoms, not Aerys.

So what? Do you think the smallfolk give a damn who was acting behind the scenes?

[Verboten]

So what? Do you think the smallfolk give a damn who was acting behind the scenes?

Fuck yes. They cheered for Tywin twice as loudly then for Aerys.

[mediocre cheese]

Fuck yes. They cheered for Tywin twice as loudly then for Aerys.

That was in the westerlands, tywin's own lands

[Sevumar]

:) Sevumar, hold up. Are you suggesting that Dany owes Ned Stark an apology? What for pray tell? For thinking that he fought on in a rebellion that ousted her father? Oh, right, he did. For thinking that he was one of Robert's closest allies and friend?

I'm not talking about an actual, verbal apology, but that mental realization along the lines of, "I thought ill of this man for so long, but it turns out that not only was his war just, he fought to protect me from his best friend Robert's murderous obsession."

I don't think Ned was required to "give a damn" about her, as his society certainly didn't expect him to. I think it's an important statement about Ned's principles and humanity that he was willing to risk a rift with his closest friend over the life of Daenerys Targaryen. Who knows, if R+L turns out to be true, it could turn out that understanding the implications of Robert's obsession hits pretty close to home for Ned. It's not reasonable to expect Ned to try to make any provisions for Dany's comfort, education, or safety beyond what he did. It would've been considered treason. It's not as though he could've sent an offer out to Willem Darry on Dragonstone promising safety to the Targaryen children if they'd give up their claim and stay on their island. For one, they wouldn't have believed it after what the Lannisters did to Rhaegar's children.

The relative prosperity of the realm was in spite of Aerys, not because of him. Verboten has already addressed this above. I suppose you're right that the peasants of the realm, like today's voters, mistakenly assume the king (or president) has more power over the economy than he actually does.

Doesn't every leader basically have to operate this way though? Until you actually start to rule, you really have little idea of the harsh realities and challenges you'll have to face.

Every leader does, to some extent. But I think we see a lot more of it with Daenerys because she's young and inexperienced. Despite her flaws, we know she's generally a good person who regrets her mistakes (when she's cognizant of them) and reflects on them. As the series goes on, we start to see more imperiousness in her behavior, and it becomes clear that she uses it as a crutch in many situations.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Her attitude toward Ned represents a major goal in the process of her character growth. It's a part of the big, difficult truth she's going to have to face: that the rebellion against her father was justified, and that if a Targaryen ever takes the throne again, there will need to be safeguards against the abuses and excesses of someone like Aerys II. She has to prove herself different from and better than Aerys if she hopes to rule.

The rebellion against Aerys may have been justified (and even Dany knows this to some extent by the end of asos), but the murder of her nephew and niece (not to mention Elia) was certainly not. And she has every right to think that Ned was involved in that as much as any of the others. I actually think he was involved - he allowed Robert to rule after baby Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered on his behalf (yes it was technically Tywin but Robert wanted it just as much), and Ned definitely backs Robert's claim pretty strongly (even beyond his death).

I don't really see him as jealous or condescending this chapter. I think what we're getting in her PoV is a bit of an overreaction to him acting in line with his role as Lord Commander of the Queensguard. He's blunt, cautious, and suspicious, as he always is, but I don't see the jealousy really come into play until Barristan joins her at the end of the book.

He is much more blunt and suspicious than he has been before.

And you don't think he's got any alterior motives? He's not going through a mental checklist of the "how to conquer Westeros handbook", he's telling her things she surely already knows, and not kindly so. Indeed more rudely than he has ever spoken to her before. In the past he's been very gentle with her in explaining things, and only when she's clearly shown outward sign of not understanding (e.g. when she repeats some idiot thing that Viserys has taught her). Here, he butts in with "advice" that's conveniently designed to keep her dependent on him before she has a chance to say anything.

He does a better job next chapter.

He occasionally assumes more familiarity than is wise, but I can't really fault him for it. He has the kind of bond with Dany that soldiers who survive war together often share and a ruler/follower frame probably isn't the best way for them to relate. His feelings complicate the matter, of course, but he actually does a pretty good job of keeping his distance. He never tries to make a move until the beginning of ASoS.

I disagree with the bolded pretty strongly, and I think Jorah would too for that matter. He is her sworn sword and he will obey her. And she has every right to expect that. I'm obviously not saying that he shouldn't give her advice or always agree with her - that's the whole point! But he can't go around pretending like she's a porcelain doll that's going to break at the slightest prodding. He has to trust her and to allow her agency to flourish, as he's done before.

His feelings complicate the matter, of course, but he actually does a pretty good job of keeping his distance. He never tries to make a move until the beginning of ASoS.

I agree, he shows much more restraint than the average guy could manage.

I think what we're seeing in Dany's PoV is a manifestation of her confusion about his feelings toward her, and some uncertainty about her identity and her ability to see her plans through. She tends to be a bit prickly and defensive when someone references something she's aware of. I have this same trait myself so I know where she's coming from.

I don't see her as being prickly at all in this chapter. Indeed she is extremely kind towards Jorah as he talks down to her. She doesn't get defensive at all. Instead in response to his rudeness, she is extraordinarily calm, warm, friendly, kind, and (too?) affectionate. In fact the first time, she doesn't even think of his behavior negatively ("...I will always be his cub as well. It made her feel safe, but sad too.")

Dany very much subscribes to the "fake it until you make it" school of thought. We see that a lot of the time she's not as resolved or certain on the inside as the image she tries to project, and this sometimes leads to some odd doubling-down when she should relent instead.

Well, of course. It would be utterly silly for any leader to portray a facade that was less certain than how they felt inside. And of course everyone has doubts. I don't think we have Dany displaying this trait particularly here, though.

[brashcandy]

Every leader does, to some extent. But I think we see a lot more of it with Daenerys because she's young and inexperienced. Despite her flaws, we know she's generally a good person who regrets her mistakes (when she's cognizant of them) and reflects on them. As the series goes on, we start to see more imperiousness in her behavior, and it becomes clear that she uses it as a crutch in many situations.

Acting imperiously has negative connotations, but as a King or Queen one has to assume a certain authoritative manner at times in order to get people to respect you and do your bidding. Even Jon Snow in his role as LC has to separate himself from his men, and realises that he needs to execute Janos Slynt for his disobedience. As a Queen, Dany cannot afford to come across as weak or unsure of herself as this would only embolden her enemies. What you take as a crutch, I see as an attempt to inspire confidence both in herself and from others.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Acting imperiously has negative connotations, but as a King or Queen one has to assume a certain authoritative manner at times in order to get people to respect you and do your bidding. Even Jon Snow in his role as LC has to separate himself from his men, and realises that he needs to execute Janos Slynt for his disobedience.

A little off topic, but I actually think this was one of Jon's biggest mistakes, and a problem that Dany suffers in parallel (though Jon actually chooses to send away his most trusted friends and allies, en masse... whereas Dany just doesn't have anyone she trusts to begin with - except Barristan who is an utter useless lump the entire book, and Missandei who's just a child...).

As a Queen, Dany cannot afford to come across as weak or unsure of herself as this would only embolden her enemies. What you take as a crutch, I see as an attempt to inspire confidence both in herself and from others.

I agree with both of you to an extent.

It is possible to take it too far, for example to hide one's true feelings from oneself or others, or use the mask to push away good friends. Both Dany and Jon make this mistake.

On the other hand, a leader absolutely must put on a good "game face" in times of trouble, or they're not going to have much success at pretty much any aspect of leadership.

[Sevumar]

The rebellion against Aerys may have been justified (and even Dany knows this to some extent by the end of asos), but the murder of her nephew and niece (not to mention Elia) was certainly not. And she has every right to think that Ned was involved in that as much as any of the others. I actually think he was involved - he allowed Robert to rule after baby Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered on his behalf (yes it was technically Tywin but Robert wanted it just as much), and Ned definitely backs Robert's claim pretty strongly (even beyond his death).

I don't think you can lay responsibility for Rhaenys's and perhaps Aegon's murders at the feet of Ned. It was done by the time he got there, he was in no position to stop it, and what other choice was there for the throne? He didn't want it and there's a good chance that people wouldn't accept him. Robert was the popular one, the face of the rebellion, and he had some blood relationship to the previous dynasty.

He is much more blunt and suspicious than he has been before.

With good reason. Previously, they'd been traveling to places that Jorah had seen before. But now, they're both pretty ragged and in a very strange place. She's being open about her claim and her desires, so it's very dangerous for her. If I was her, I'd be glad to have that Jorah instead of a more deferential one.

And you don't think he's got any alterior motives? He's not going through a mental checklist of the "how to conquer Westeros handbook", he's telling her things she surely already knows, and not kindly so. Indeed more rudely than he has ever spoken to her before.

Of course he has ulterior motives, but I think they're in the background for most of ACoK. I think his primary objective is keeping both of them alive and safe while learning to navigate Qartheen politics. I don't see any evidence of Jorah being "more rude" than he has been in the past here. He addresses her in his usual way and it's well-documented in her PoV that his advice is honest, gruff, and unvarnished.

In the past he's been very gentle with her in explaining things, and only when she's clearly shown outward sign of not understanding (e.g. when she repeats some idiot thing that Viserys has taught her). Here, he butts in with "advice" that's conveniently designed to keep her dependent on him before she has a chance to say anything.

There are times when he's very patient and gentle, mostly early in AGoT, and that's a place where you could make a case that he's being condescending.

I disagree with the bolded pretty strongly, and I think Jorah would too for that matter. He is her sworn sword and he will obey her. And she has every right to expect that. I'm obviously not saying that he shouldn't give her advice or always agree with her - that's the whole point! But he can't go around pretending like she's a porcelain doll that's going to break at the slightest prodding. He has to trust her and to allow her agency to flourish, as he's done before.

Perhaps he would object, I don't know, but we've seen these kinds of relationships form in Westeros among people who've been through a profound and dangerous experience together. It's entirely possible for it to transcend social rank and play a very important role for its participants. And of course, this is something frequently seen in the real world, even across lines of command.

As he points out in ASoS, he's far more than her sworn sword, and we eventually see what happens when the leader of the Queensguard is more deferential and less forceful about advice. I don't think he's treating her like a porcelain doll. It's a fair criticism to point out that he sometimes has trouble taking "no" for an answer to his advice, but he usually understands that just because he proposes something doesn't mean she has to do it.

I don't agree with you on the issue of trust, but I think part of that comes from the fact that I wouldn't ever put my fate in the hands of a 14 year old. At that age, people aren't ready to run anything, and they shouldn't be given the kind of authority an absolute monarch wields, so I'm not going to fault someone for being an active adviser here and erring on the side of caution.

I don't see her as being prickly at all in this chapter. Indeed she is extremely kind towards Jorah as he talks down to her. She doesn't get defensive at all. Instead in response to his rudeness, she is extraordinarily calm, warm, friendly, kind, and (too?) affectionate. In fact the first time, she doesn't even think of his behavior negatively ("...I will always be his cub as well. It made her feel safe, but sad too.")

Again, I don't really seem him talking down to her here. I think he's being extremely thorough and careful in analyzing the situation. Most of the last part of my paragraph concerned observations that are from later in the series, but you can see the roots of this behavior here.

Her behavior toward Jorah in this book is very strange and confused, especially with all of this kissing, touching, and flirty body language.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I don't think you can lay responsibility for Rhaenys's and perhaps Aegon's murders at the feet of Ned. It was done by the time he got there, he was in no position to stop it, and what other choice was there for the throne? He didn't want it and there's a good chance that people wouldn't accept him. Robert was the popular one, the face of the rebellion, and he had some blood relationship to the previous dynasty.

But Ned doesn't just "go along with" Robert's claim, he defends it and supports it strongly. Even after Robert is dead, he sticks to the new Baratheon succession. For all intents and purposes, Ned really is Robert's dog. He would do almost anything for him*, he would die for him. Even if he didn't do anything dishonorable personally, he supports a man as king who was responsible for the murder of her family. That makes him her enemy as long as he lives.

* ETA: To his credit, Ned did stop following Robert due to the Daenerys assassination attempt, and much earlier he broke with him for a short time due to the murder of the other Targaryen children... and yet he comes back, and is a stronger advocate than ever for his friend in each case.

he usually understands that just because he proposes something doesn't mean she has to do it.

This is true. I think that Jorah has no problem following Dany in the end, in fact he wants to follow her. The darker part of him also wants to possess her, though, which makes things pretty complicated.

Again, I don't really seem him talking down to her here. I think he's being extremely thorough and careful in analyzing the situation. Most of the last part of my paragraph concerned observations that are from later in the series, but you can see the roots of this behavior here.

He's not being in any way analytical though. All his opinions seem off the cuff, and all of them are negative. And notably there's not a coherent whole or plan behind them. Dany at least has an overall strategy for Qarth, Jorah's plan seems to be "Ahhhh run away! Trust no one!!" (???)

Don't trust them. They seem sneaky. Let's get out of here.

I belong at your side, it doesn't matter if you have extremely well thought out reasons for sending me in particular, I'm staying.

Don't go west, it's too dangerous.

Don't stay here it's too dangerous.

Don't tell people you're alive, it's too dangerous (and yet she needs to make allies??).

You can't take Westeros, it's too dangerous.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree again on this issue.

Her behavior toward Jorah in this book is very strange and confused, especially with all of this kissing, touching, and flirty body language.

What about her behavior seems confused to you? Here she's quite forebearing, polite, kind, etc. She's a lot more confused in the next book.

And though I brought it up, when it comes to the physical affection part, I don't think that's confused either. She's just genuinely affectionate towards him, and she is super naive when it comes to men. I imagine she thinks that if she can't give him what he wants, she can at least show him what affection she can, not realizing that this it is complete torture to do this.

[Sevumar]

But Ned doesn't just "go along with" Robert's claim, he defends it and supports it strongly. Even after Robert is dead, he sticks to the new Baratheon succession. For all intents and purposes, Ned really is Robert's dog. He would do almost anything for him, he would die for him. Even if he didn't do anything dishonorable personally, he supports a man as king who was responsible for the murder of her family. That makes him her enemy as long as he lives.

Ned was Robert's friend and foster brother, so it's natural for them to have a close bond. He expressed revulsion at what was done to Rhaenys and Aegon, and he risked just about everything to try to convince Robert not to kill Dany and Viserys. He really didn't have any more freedom to act than that. I'm also puzzled by your surprise that "he stuck to the Baratheon succession." Again, what else was he supposed to do, other than contravene what he understands to be Westerosi law and support a Lannister bastard taking the throne (for his own benefit)? Can anyone really expect him to send Dany a postcard with a picture of the Red Keep and an invitation to come and take the crown?

He's not being in any way analytical though. All his opinions seem off the cuff, and all of them are negative. And notably there's not a coherent whole or plan behind them. Dany at least has an overall strategy for Qarth, Jorah's plan seems to be "Ahhhh run away! Trust no one!!"

Actually, he shows that he has quite a bit of analytical capability at his disposal, and he's willing to employ it if she asks. He probably assumes, like most people in Westeros, that the war won't last that long, and that he can provide a read on the resulting situation that can help Dany in her campaign. He's less specific when it comes to dealing with Qarth, but that's to be expected. It's not his area of expertise and this is where not having a more filled-out "court" hurts Dany. He's right to tell her not to trust any of the power brokers in the city, and he ultimately ends up being right. He helps open her eyes to Xaro's scheming, and his conclusion that she won't find help in Qarth is right on the mark.

1. Don't trust them. They seem sneaky. Let's get out of here.

2. I belong at your side, it doesn't matter if you have extremely well thought out reasons for sending me in particular, I'm staying.

3. Don't go west, it's too dangerous.

4. Don't stay here it's too dangerous.

5. Don't tell people you're alive, it's too dangerous (and yet she needs to make allies??).

6. You can't take Westeros, it's too dangerous.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree again on this issue.

You're right, we probably will have to agree to disagree. This is one of those points where people have radically different readings of what's going on here. I want to answer your statements one by one just because these bits of advice don't seem that outlandish to me.

1. Jorah turns out to be right on this count. Like I said above, people in Qarth are primarily trying to use her without having to give her anything of real value or use.

2. This is precisely what you'd expect a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to say if he has a head on his shoulders, particularly if there isn't the rest of the order to protect her.

3. Given the attempts on her life and the unpredictability of the situation in Westeros, I don't think this is such bad advice.

4. There is something undeniably creepy and wrong about Qarth. Jorah's fairly accurate in his prediction that she won't find much help here.

5. I understand the need for allies, but telling her plans to Quhuru Mo without further clarification to use the information to seek out allies doesn't make a ton of sense. Taking the Seven Kingdoms by surprise would give her a significant advantage.

6. It is pretty dangerous out there right now, and she has no army. He's absolutely right on this count. She needs to get her hands on the means to field and finance an invasion before she should risk setting foot on Westeros. This is as much for her own safefy as it is to ensure the best chances of her success.

What about her behavior seems confused to you? Here she's quite forebearing, polite, kind, etc. She's a lot more confused in the next book.

She suspects, correctly, that he has romantic feelings toward her. There seems to be some part of her that wants to reciprocate, but she finds herself unable. I don't dispute that she gets more confused, but I know if a man has those kinds of feelings for me and they're unwanted, the last thing I'd to is keep touching him rather familiarly and kissing him. I'd be hardpressed to find a situation in which this kind of behavior would be considered anything other than inappropriate in a nonromantic relationship. This goes beyond the bounds of what I'd say is "affectionate."

Now, I get that you think she's not aware of what she's doing. I think she's young enough and lacking in worldliness that this is possible, but you'd think that she'd have the sense to at least address the issue of his feelings directly. That's where the confusion comes in. She believes that these things are signs of fondness, but she doesn't want him to be familiar with her?

[headtrip_honey]

Ned was Robert's friend and foster brother, so it's natural for them to have a close bond. He expressed revulsion at what was done to Rhaenys and Aegon, and he risked just about everything to try to convince Robert not to kill Dany and Viserys. He really didn't have any more freedom to act than that. I'm also puzzled by your surprise that "he stuck to the Baratheon succession." Again, what else was he supposed to do, other than contravene what he understands to be Westerosi law and support a Lannister bastard taking the throne (for his own benefit)? Can anyone really expect him to send Dany a postcard with a picture of the Red Keep and an invitation to come and take the crown?

From Ned's point of view, yes, he did what he could and what he thought was right.

From Daenerys' point of view (because she can't see into his head like we can, and on top of that has only limited information on what's happening in Westeros), he was a supporter of Robert who seemingly approved of the murder of Targaryen children. (There is no evidence that I recall that Dany is aware that Ned DIDN'T approve, and broke away from Robert for awhile. And even if she did know, he still supported Robert as king, even if their friendship cooled off)

I don't blame Dany for disliking the man, knowing what she knows. It sucks because WE know he's not a bad guy, but she has no way to know that.

She may later grudgingly admit that perhaps Ned had a right to go to war, given what Aerys did to his family, and acknowledge that he at least was an honorable man, but I don't expect her to ever think warm fuzzy thoughts of him. (although she and Sansa are total future bffs)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

You're right, we probably will have to agree to disagree. This is one of those points where people have radically different readings of what's going on here. I want to answer your statements one by one just because these bits of advice don't seem that outlandish to me.

I don't think we really have radically different readings though. In fact I think we agree on the fundamentals?

Jorah is a smart man with useful experience he would like to impart.

However, Jorah is driven in his actions at least as much by his heart as by his head.

Jorah worries (you think rightfully, I think not so much) that Dany is too naive and trusting, and that she is in real danger from Robert and others.

Jorah, being in love with Dany, feels some amount of jealousy when she spends time not with him, especially when she is with men he does not know.

Thus, Jorah advises her more stringently than he otherwise might (e.g. if he was not in love and jealous) not to trust anyone, and to not think about going to Westeros.

Finally, Dany is a remarkably intelligent young woman and in this chapter shows more ability to understand what is going on than Jorah gives her credit for.

That's pretty much all I'm trying to say. I don't think that taken individually any of Jorah's advice can be called "wrong" - I find his actions completely understandable and have defended him on this very issue in the past. But, I also find Dany's actions and reactions completely understandable!

I know if a man has those kinds of feelings for me and they're unwanted, the last thing I'd to is keep touching him rather familiarly and kissing him. I'd be hardpressed to find a situation in which this kind of behavior would be considered anything other than inappropriate in a nonromantic relationship. This goes beyond the bounds of what I'd say is "affectionate."

She is also this way with her handmaids, for example. Affectionate is in this context not the best approach. But Dany really doesn't understand that - she's never fallen for someone she can't have, nor even lusted for anyone, since her sexual experience has been limited to forced marriage.

She's in a difficult position. If she calls him on his feelings, she will shame him and break his heart (but at least there would be resolution). Instead she opts to be as kind to him as she can and hope that he either gets over his feelings or can control them - as an adult he should be able to handle that. She is not responsable for his feelings.

I also understand your interpretation is that Dany might not find Jorah's feelings for her entirely unwanted. I rather agree, given her thoughts in adwd (regarding Barristan averting his eyes from her nekkids) "Ser Jorah would not look away. He loved me as a woman, not just as a queen." Dany is in a nebulous area. She finds his love for her sweet but also sad because she cannot reciprocate - it seems like a realistic reaction to me.

[Alexia]

I suck. I had a class really late last night and was too tired to come in and address all of your wonderful posts. I promise I will do it very soon, because I am really fascinated by the Ned conversation -- unfortunately, I am at work right now and it takes work to cogently write out my epistle on that score!

Tywin was responsible for the prosperity of the Seven Kingdoms, not Aerys.

One minor note here. It takes a good leader to delegate to qualified individuals. It is very popular to blame some individual, frequently a figurehead (aka: current US president of whichever party) for the good and for the bad. But it is a team effort. Aerys is just as responsible for the prosperity of the Seven Kingdoms because he made the decision to appoint Tywin. You can't completely withhold any acknowledgement of the fact.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Ned was Robert's friend and foster brother, so it's natural for them to have a close bond. He expressed revulsion at what was done to Rhaenys and Aegon, and he risked just about everything to try to convince Robert not to kill Dany and Viserys. He really didn't have any more freedom to act than that. I'm also puzzled by your surprise that "he stuck to the Baratheon succession." Again, what else was he supposed to do, other than contravene what he understands to be Westerosi law and support a Lannister bastard taking the throne (for his own benefit)? Can anyone really expect him to send Dany a postcard with a picture of the Red Keep and an invitation to come and take the crown?

What I'm trying to get at (and headtrip_honey nicely elaborated on) is that a world can exist where Ned is a good person and Dany is right to feel enmity towards him. Dany's wish that Ned should be held responsible for supporting a tyrant and usurper can be justified and at the same time Ned's support of Robert can be justified. There is no absolute right or wrong here - it's two good people who are on opposite sides. There's simply no way that they could have been friends, I'm afraid.

On the other hand I've never felt that Dany was any kind of a threat to Starks other than Ned. Indeed if she'd happened to have come to Westeros during a Storm of Swords she might have ended up fighting on the same side.

[headtrip_honey]

What I'm trying to get at (and headtrip_honey nicely elaborated on) is that a world can exist where Ned is a good person and Dany is right to feel enmity towards him. Dany's wish that Ned should be held responsible for supporting a tyrant and usurper can be justified and at the same time Ned's support of Robert can be justified. There is no absolute right or wrong here - it's two good people who are on opposite sides. There's simply no way that they could have been friends, I'm afraid.

On the other hand I've never felt that Dany was any kind of a threat to Starks other than Ned. Indeed if she'd happened to have come to Westeros during a Storm of Swords she might have ended up fighting on the same side.

As a Dany expert, what do you think her opinion would be of a Stark as King or Queen in the North? Do you think she'd insist on holding the 7 kingdoms together, or would she be fine with breaking up the kingdom?

Because if she did insist, that would be the one thing that I think would have stopped her from allying herself with Robb.

//off-topic

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

As a Dany expert, what do you think her opinion would be of a Stark as King or Queen in the North? Do you think she'd insist on holding the 7 kingdoms together, or would she be fine with breaking up the kingdom?

Because if she did insist, that would be the one thing that I think would have stopped her from allying herself with Robb.

//off-topic

Hehe when I was reading asos I was totally clueless and thought that Robb might actually win against Frey-Boltwin lol... So I had this idea that Dany and Robb would meet and fall in love and rule all of Westeros together! <-- dork/world's only Dany/Robb shipper.

I suspect that Dany would want the seven kingdoms to be the seven kingdoms and probably would not accept a separate Northern Kingdom except in a very specific scenario.

I think how that would actually play out would depend on the status of each army. E.g. if Dany were to appear at such a time that she basically rescued the Starks from complete disaster, I think that Robb et al would be willing to accept an alliance with the Targaryens that returned them to the status quo pre-Robert. After all, it's brought up when Robb is crowned that the Starks only knelt to the Dragon, not the Stag. In the end I think the Starks would accept a Targaryen as regent if it was the only way to get rid of the Lannisters.

On the other hand if Robb's forces are substantially larger than Dany's and if Robb's situation looks promising... It depends I suppose on whether she feels she needs Robb's forces. She might remain neutral to The North and Riverlands while she takes out the other 5 kingdoms. If she needs Robb's forces/cooperation to make any headway at all she might start by offering marriage alliance. If Robb declines, I think that she would accept his help (in exchange for Northern Autonomy) if it was the only way to claim the Iron Throne in the short term. Then the North could become the new Dorne (France?), to be conquered by some descendant, or united through marriage alliance later. I don't think she'd give up on trying for a united seven kingdoms eventually.