[ADwD Spoilers] A Daenerys Character Arc Reread

[Alexia]

Chapter III Recap

This chapter starts in the Dothraki sea. Jorah tells her about ghost grass that murders other grass and glows in the dark with spirits of the damned, and the Dothraki claim that it will eventually cover the entire world and life will end. Is ghost grass mentioned in ADWD?

Viserys came along with her, but Illyrio urged him to wait in Pentos. Viserys said that if Drogo tried to cheat him, he would learn what it meant to wake the dragon. Illyrio blinked and wished him good fortune at that point.

Dany commands the horde to stop, and Jorah says that she is learning to talk like a queen. Her confidence is growing from the first chapter.

She had hideous bloody saddle sores on her bottom and Drogo still came every night to have sex with her, which seems quite brutal and cruel. It is noticed that she had no place in the other parts of his life, but at night he came to her. It seems apparent that Drogo sees her as a sex toy he purchased, not as an equal or a partner.

Another dragon dream, and the pain begins to ease. I’m still interested in the significance of these dreams.

Viserys assaults her and screams at her, and for the first time she pushes him. Then Jhogo whipped him and offered to kill him, and Quaro wanted to cut off his ear. For the first time, she sees Viserys as a pitiful thing and takes his horse. Viserys tries to make Jorah beat her and instead Jorah takes her side and the horse.

Jorah says that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and Viserys less than the shadow of a snake. He then asks what that makes his servant (Jorah). I agree, Jorah the Slaver, what does that make you? Jorah then disillusions Dany about the supposed common folk praying for a Targaryen return. Interesting contrast with the smallfolk helping the Stark children in the North.

Notably, she fantasizes about all the doors in KL being red. She then says that Viserys will never take them home.

Doreah says a trader from Quarth told her that the moon was an egg, there were once two moons in the sky and one cracked from the heat of the sun. Then dragons poured forth and drank the fire of the sun. This is why dragons breathe flame. When the next moon kisses the sun, it will crack and dragons will return.

Doreah teaches her how to have sex. She then takes Khal Drogo out to have public sex in front of the khalasar, and gets on top. Drogo says her name during orgasm. I tend to think this public sex thing is kinda dumb and that the show did it much better. I never found it very believable that Drogo would be out having kinky sex with her in front of his whole army.

On her 14^th birthday, she’s pregnant.

[voodooqueen126]

The public sex thing is kind of unrealistic.

[Brienne=Azor]

Just a couple thoughts.

1) Dany went to the Dothraki to get more "man power" for the return to Westeros

2) Ilyrio had to know the Dothroki wouldn't cross the sea, SO, by extension, I think he knew that Dany could hatch the eggs (or at least hoped really hard.)

3) I think he sent vyseris along to shut him the hell up. You're trying to keep these kids alive and he's running around Pentos telling folks about his kingdom to the point where they start calling him "the beggar king." If he runs around Vas Dothrak telling that story, nobody will care, and word won't get back to Kings Landing as easily.

4) I think ageon is a fake (Quaithe's warning to ignore the "false dragon" among other things), but I don't know this for sure.

and finally,

5) I think Ilyrio and Varys kept Viserys/Dany seperate from Aegon, because a) he's a fake, and B) They simply didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket. If somebody found and killed Dany/Vyseris or Aegon, they'd still have some spare Targs in their back pockets.

[Early Earl]

Just a couple thoughts.

1) Dany went to the Dothraki to get more "man power" for the return to Westeros

2) Ilyrio had to know the Dothroki wouldn't cross the sea, SO, by extension, I think he knew that Dany could hatch the eggs (or at least hoped really hard.)

3) I think he sent vyseris along to shut him the hell up. You're trying to keep these kids alive and he's running around Pentos telling folks about his kingdom to the point where they start calling him "the beggar king." If he runs around Vas Dothrak telling that story, nobody will care, and word won't get back to Kings Landing as easily.

4) I think ageon is a fake (Quaithe's warning to ignore the "false dragon" among other things), but I don't know this for sure.

and finally,

5) I think Ilyrio and Varys kept Viserys/Dany seperate from Aegon, because a) he's a fake, and B) They simply didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket. If somebody found and killed Dany/Vyseris or Aegon, they'd still have some spare Targs in their back pockets.

1. At least that's what they told Viserys. As we learn later it's not as simple as trade little girl for an army with theDothraki. I was thinking they might've just planned to separate Viserys from Dany to do whatever. But since Viserys prooved to be the way he is, they just settled for making a good deal with the horse lords.

2. There's one question that has bothered me a lot! Just how much worth are those eggs? We are told Euron possessed one but threw it away. Not really sure he did, but still: are they worth more or less than Illyrio gained by trading Dany in? Knowing that, we'd know more about Illyrio's knowledge of Dragon lore and thus more about all that magic. I'm really curious, but I can't really imagine it though, because when he later learns about Dany's conquests, he said he had to change his plans.

3. From what we know of Viserys, this must be true :).

4. I think he's real. Enough with the baby-switching-who-is-who already :P. In the end, it doesn't matter: power is, where the people believe it is.

5. I think so, too. (Apart from a) of course)

[Brienne=Azor]

2. There's one question that has bothered me a lot! Just how much worth are those eggs? We are told Euron possessed one but threw it away. Not really sure he did, but still: are they worth more or less than Illyrio gained by trading Dany in? Knowing that, we'd know more about Illyrio's knowledge of Dragon lore and thus more about all that magic. I'm really curious, but I can't really imagine it though, because when he later learns about Dany's conquests, he said he had to change his plans.

I actually just read something in another forum that made me strongly reconsider this. I had read "mummer's dragon" to mean "false dragon" but it is more likely that Quaith calling him the mummer's dragon is simply a reference to the fact that he is under Varys' watch. So, he may well be the real deal after all. I rescind my accusation that he's a fake.

[Sevumar]

This chapter starts in the Dothraki sea. Jorah tells her about ghost grass that murders other grass and glows in the dark with spirits of the damned, and the Dothraki claim that it will eventually cover the entire world and life will end. Is ghost grass mentioned in ADWD?

I don't remember it being mentioned by name in ADWD, although Dany does notice that the grasses of the Dothraki Sea in general are dying. The only other reference to ghost grass by name (IIRC) occurs in the last Dany chapter in ACoK, where Xaro is discussing the wondrous things occurring in Qarth that've heralded the return of magic (glass candles burning in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker, ghost grass growing in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises carrying messages between houses on the Warlock's Way, Mathos Malarawan's wife is mad and running around naked, and the blind eater of eyes can see again).

She had hideous bloody saddle sores on her bottom and Drogo still came every night to have sex with her, which seems quite brutal and cruel. It is noticed that she had no place in the other parts of his life, but at night he came to her. It seems apparent that Drogo sees her as a sex toy he purchased, not as an equal or a partner.

It does seem cruel that Drogo wouldn't have any consideration for her sores while she's adjusting to the Dothraki way of life. I think part of what we see in Drogo in AGoT is that he grows more gentle and considerate as he gets to know her and see the strength building within Dany. She's not just adapting to his culture, he's taking some cues from her and banking on his authority as a strong leader to get his more recalcitrant followers to accept his breaks with tradition. I'm not sure that he sees her as a sex toy because it is pretty common in low-tech hunter-gatherer and nomadic cultures for men and women to occupy their own spheres for most of their lives. In many, they even maintain their own separate dwellings or only see each other at night.

Another dragon dream, and the pain begins to ease. I’m still interested in the significance of these dreams.

I'm not sure we yet know the significance of all the dragon dreams, but the one in this chapter seems to have key elements of something we see in ADWD. The scales of the dragon are described as being slick with Dany's blood. She's described as allowing fire to embrace her, cleanse her, scour her, and temper her. Thoughts of rebirth/renewal are strongly implied.

These things are not occurring in the order that she experiences them in the dream, but I think they are in close enough proximity to each other in ADWD that the dream could be a fit for the events following her flight with Drogon. In her last chapter, we see Dany bleeding (possibly a sign of miscarriage). In the pit, Drogon's breath both scorched her hands and burned her hair away again. While she's clearly injured, by the end of the chapter, she's coming to view the incident as a turning point. There are signs that she's feeling a stronger sense of mission and awakening to a more Targaryen-like identity than she's displayed in recent books.

Jorah says that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and Viserys less than the shadow of a snake. He then asks what that makes his servant (Jorah). I agree, Jorah the Slaver, what does that make you? Jorah then disillusions Dany about the supposed common folk praying for a Targaryen return. Interesting contrast with the smallfolk helping the Stark children in the North.

Notably, she fantasizes about all the doors in KL being red. She then says that Viserys will never take them home.

I think the question Jorah asks is rhetorical. It's a demonstration of his strong sense of self-loathing and a sign of his dawning awareness that there's some real substance to Daenerys. This exchange puts the essences of both characters on display. Jorah longs for home because he misses better days and deeply regrets his mistakes.

Until recently, Viserys had been Dany's only link to a home she's longed for, but never seen. He's told her stories steeped in the delusions of a desperate mind and seasoned by Illyrio's propaganda. Jorah's blunt words show her something she's always known: Viserys cannot take her home. Jorah's right, if only for the moment, that there's no dragon, but Dany will change that. Dany's only concrete home was the house with the red door, a place she can remember and retreat to in her mind, but never return. Her conflict will be as much about defining what home is as finding a way to win back what her family has lost.

She then takes Khal Drogo out to have public sex in front of the khalasar, and gets on top. Drogo says her name during orgasm. I tend to think this public sex thing is kinda dumb and that the show did it much better. I never found it very believable that Drogo would be out having kinky sex with her in front of his whole army.

It wouldn't be my choice, either, but I think it fits well with the Dothraki attitudes about everything of importance in life being done under the open sky. It's a chance for her to show both her husband and her new people that she's become one of them, but on her own terms.

[Parwan]

Chapter III Recap

...

She had hideous bloody saddle sores on her bottom and Drogo still came every night to have sex with her, which seems quite brutal and cruel. It is noticed that she had no place in the other parts of his life, but at night he came to her. It seems apparent that Drogo sees her as a sex toy he purchased, not as an equal or a partner.

...

Doreah teaches her how to have sex. She then takes Khal Drogo out to have public sex in front of the khalasar, and gets on top. Drogo says her name during orgasm. I tend to think this public sex thing is kinda dumb and that the show did it much better. I never found it very believable that Drogo would be out having kinky sex with her in front of his whole army.

On her 14^th birthday, she’s pregnant.

I don't think Drogo would see Dany primarily as a sex toy, at least not as I understand that phrase. The khal is a rich and powerful man; finding good-looking bed mates wouldn't be a problem for him. A truly vital matter would be what we call genetics, what the characters in the story would probably call blood lines. Khal Drogo has lived all his life in Esos. He would know about dragons and ancient Valyria. He damn sure would know about dragon bone and Valyrian steel. Furthermore, I'm confident that Illyrio would cheerfully provide the khal with answers to any questions he had about these issues. A chance to mate with a female descendant of a man named "Aegon the Conquerer" would not be something that the leader of a khalasar would want to pass up. After the wedding, he would be sure to have sex with her quite often. He'd begin this process on his terms. If the woman proved strong enough to start dictating her own terms, then so much the better.

The fact that the bride-to-be was attractive would be important to the khal. Much more important would be the fact that this was a young woman who could give him one of the things most desired by men like Drogo--strong sons.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Im on vacation so my ch 3 comments will be short for now.

_ I love this chapter... Danys transformation really begkns. You can taste her freedom just as she can, can see the greatness she could posess. Her ability to adapt is quite striking and admirable, though ive heard some critique her for being too accepting of the dothraki way, I cannot imagine another set of choices that would really make sense here. Dany roooooocks!

-agree with others that drogo' attifude towards dany is tyipical for his culture and not analagous to 'sex toy' I have argued that it is rape, and brutal,as her distress seems quite clear but its likely more to do with mens vs womans spheres than disrespect.

- not sure why the public sex thing seems unrealistic, cultures are pretty out there sometimes. It is yet another ' look at me im a barbarian look look!' Moment tho.

- 'ghost grass...' And 'the common people pray for rain...' Parts I and II of cool shit jorah mormont says. To be continued. ;)

- IA jorahs comments re: viserys demonstrate his self loathing more than anything. Also his frankness which dany begins to.find useful here.

- 'your brother rhaegar was the last dragon and he died on the trident' Jorahs opinion of rhaegar seems positive, again contrasting with roberts story that hes raped and killed lyanna. Interesting too as he was on the usurper's side. I wonder which story most westerosi believe?

[Parwan]

...

_ I love this chapter... Danys transformation really begkns. You can taste her freedom just as she can, can see the greatness she could posess. Her ability to adapt is quite striking and admirable, though ive heard some critique her for being too accepting of the dothraki way, I cannot imagine another set of choices that would really make sense here. Dany roooooocks!

-agree with others that drogo' attifude towards dany is tyipical for his culture and not analagous to 'sex toy' I have argued that it is rape, and brutal,as her distress seems quite clear but its likely more to do with mens vs womans spheres than disrespect.

- not sure why the public sex thing seems unrealistic, cultures are pretty out there sometimes. It is yet another ' look at me im a barbarian look look!' Moment tho.

You say it was rape. I agree. A question arises: What does Dany say? It seems to me that she would disagree with us. To a very considerable extent, she becomes a Dothraki in AGoT. Thus, she would almost certainly deny that what Khal Drogo did was rape, wouldn't she? This is a conflict that I haven't completely resolved in my own mind.

The barbarian business also raises a number of questions. Some accuse GRRM of Orientalism. I don't think this charge sticks. East and west in Martin's world are too different from east and west in our world. Even if I'm right about this, however, that doesn't close the matter. Are comments about barbarians and savages the opinions of various characters (Tyrion Lannister, the citizens of Pentos, etc.) or the opinions of the author? For the most part, I'd say it's the former. However, sentences like, "Daenerys Targaryen wed Khal Drogo with fear and barbaric splendor..." invite us to wonder about things. Is Drogo a barbarian? Is that the same thing as a savage? Does this make him a different sort of being than those found in most of Westeros or in the Free Cities? Does Dany become a barbarian, and thus also a savage?

[SeanF]

WRT sex in front of other people, we tend to take privacy for granted in a way that earlier centuries didn't.

At one stage, the Dauphins were expected to consummate their marriages in front of selected nobility. People shared bedchambers with their body servants, and servants were often crowded into bedchambers together, and had few qualms about having sex in front of their fellows.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Daenerys Game of Thrones Chapter 4

Summary:

Daenerys and the Khalasaar ride to Vaes Dothrak. Viserys is as contemptuous as ever of these savages, and their city, ignoring the fact that he is filthy himself. Daenerys pities her brother, and worries for him. She has been working hard these past weeks to restore him to a place of honor, and to horseback.

She and Ser Jorah discuss Viserys, and she asks whether he will be granted an army soon, and invade Westeros. Ser Jorah opines that Viserys wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how large an army he was given ("Viserys couldn't sweep a stables with 10,000 brooms" trololol). In any case, Dothraki don't consider payment as other cultures do - Viserys must be patient and earn the respect of the Khal before he can expect a gift as large as an army. They discuss military strategy, and whether any Dothraki army could beat a Westrosi one - Jorah thinks they perhaps could, especially if Robert were fool enough to meet them on the field. Jorah then reveals that he has been exiled because he sold poachers, and he blames Ned Stark for all of it.

After they reach camp, Daenerys discovers from Drogo's bloodrider that she will have the night to herself as Khal Drogo must go to the sacred mountain. She thinks about bloodriders, and kingsguard, and feels her son should have both, to preempt treachery like that shown by Ser Jaime Lannister. Bloodriders are truly bound by blood, and thus such treachery is unthinkable.

Later, Daenerys prepares a meal for Viserys and plans to give him some fine Dothraki riding clothes, including a very nice dragon painted vest. He shows up and is furious with her becuase Doreah said Daenerys commanded his presence. Daenerys tries to mollify him, but threatens her life and tries to abuse her again - she hits him with a belt and tells him that he should have learnt his lesson by now. Viserys says she will rue this day when he comes into power then leaves. Shaken, Daenerys embraces a dragon egg and tells her son that he is the dragon, the true dragon, then falls asleep.

Analysis:

Most of this chapter was world building (via Mr. exposition Ser Jorah). The amount of political and military acumen shown by the knight is quite striking already... especially that he considers rightly that the Dothraki are a real threat to Westeros, and Viserys is an utter fool. Despite this Jorah shows no reflectiveness or remorse at all for what he did, which is quite in character, lol.

Most of the chapter is spent on Daenerys and Viserys' changing relationship. Interestingly Daenerys spends most of the chapter defending Viserys, even as he has shown no signs of remorse or thankfulness to her that she has been covering for him for months. Then he pushes too far, and is brought down again. Viserys continues to show a complete inability to adapt, in stark contrast to Daenerys. He's a cruel fool, and not much more.

I'm surprised by how pregnant Daenerys already is in this chapter - she has a swollen belly so must be late 2nd trimester at least thus, much time must have passed between this and the last (many months).

Um that's about it! Not a ton happened here, kind of marking time until the next chapter... where the shit will absolutely hit the fan.

[SeanF]

Maybe it would have been a good lesson for Viserys, and saved his life, if Daenerys had ordered Quaro to cut off an ear.

[brashcandy]

Analysis:

Most of this chapter was world building (via Mr. exposition Ser Jorah). The amount of political and military acumen shown by the knight is quite striking already... especially that he considers rightly that the Dothraki are a real threat to Westeros, and Viserys is an utter fool. Despite this Jorah shows no reflectiveness or remorse at all for what he did, which is quite in character, lol.

Most of the chapter is spent on Daenerys and Viserys' changing relationship. Interestingly Daenerys spends most of the chapter defending Viserys, even as he has shown no signs of remorse or thankfulness to her that she has been covering for him for months. Then he pushes too far, and is brought down again. Viserys continues to show a complete inability to adapt, in stark contrast to Daenerys. He's a cruel fool, and not much more.

I'm surprised by how pregnant Daenerys already is in this chapter - she has a swollen belly so must be late 2nd trimester at least thus, much time must have passed between this and the last (many months).

Um that's about it! Not a ton happened here, kind of marking time until the next chapter... where the shit will absolutely hit the fan.

The bolded part of your analysis is what I find most noteworthy, MDIND. I think that more than being a hotheaded fool, this is what dooms Viserys. He seems to become more and more resistant to change and resents that Dany has fit in so easily with the Dothraki way of life. I wonder why he is so stubborn? I suppose part of it is because he actually has memories of what his life was like back in Westeros, and another part of it is just plain prejudice - he thinks he's better than these people even though he wants to use them.

And just to point out that as you showed, Daenerys does try to help her brother and defend him. I've heard too many posters, be like, oh she never cared about him, she didn't even blink when he died. I think this chapter marks the beginning of a significant rift that obviously never healed, and also the start of Dany's own resistance to bullying and threats.

Also the relevance of the Dothraki is important too, and we can understand why Varys and Illyrio might have wanted them for Aegon. Now that we know how ADWD ends, I'm wondering how it will all spill out and who might be the army foolish enough to meet Dany in the field.

[Alexia]

Daenerys Game of Thrones Chapter 4

Yay, new recap! I'll post my thoughts on the chapter tonight (and plan to have the next one up by Friday) but I did feel somewhat sorry for Viserys in this one. So sick with a cold right now that I'm feeling physically dizzy but stuck at work. :(

On Jorah -- I never understood where he gets off blaming Ned Stark for his exile. He deserves everything Ned was sending his way for selling slaves. Its a shame Ned never caught up to him. I was talking in another thread about Robert's weakness and how he actively fostered corruption in his court and realm, and I think its very notable that he was defending Jorah against Ned's wrath wroth in a separate chapter.

Maybe it would have been a good lesson for Viserys, and saved his life, if Daenerys had ordered Quaro to cut off an ear.

Nah, that wouldn't have done anything that being the Cart King didn't, except make him really, genuinely hate his sister. He should have learned his lesson from Rakharo's whip around his throat.

I will say, on a side note, that I was disappointed in the HBO series when Rakharo was the one who took Viserys' horse. I thought that was an important moment of becoming independent from Viserys and realizing that she actually had power over him and not the other way around.

And just to point out that as you showed, Daenerys does try to help her brother and defend him. I've heard too many posters, be like, oh she never cared about him, she didn't even blink when he died.

There was an absolutely hilarious thread a few months back in which the poster made this very argument. One of the responses noted that it came off as a Viserys' post-mortem POV. Very funny stuff.

And as a final note, I want to note the number of Daenerys chapters per book.

AGOT: 10 chapters

ACOK: 5 chapters

ASOS: 6 chapters

AFFC: 0 chapters

ADWD: 10 chapters

Just so we know what we're working with.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for the link, Alexia! I honestly can't believe the madness :)

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

On Jorah -- I never understood where he gets off blaming Ned Stark for his exile. He deserves everything Ned was sending his way for selling slaves. Its a shame Ned never caught up to him. I was talking in another thread about Robert's weakness and how he actively fostered corruption in his court and realm, and I think its very notable that he was defending Jorah against Ned's wrath wroth in a separate chapter.

Well, Jorah's lack of personal integrity on this issue and many others is absolutely his greatest weakness. But I wouldn't want Ned to have caught up to him, he has many other excellent qualities which make him an invaluable ally to Daenerys, many of which were on display this chapter. We've now seen how poorly a perfect knight (Barristan) compares in his position...

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, everyone seems to know what horrors Roose and Ramsey Bolton were committing against their own people. Jorah (in his arrogance) likely thought, "why should such men go unpunished by Ned Stark while I am forced to exile or death for punishing criminals as I saw fit?"

OH! By the way I really loved the way they did this conversation in the TV series, because Daenerys totally called Jorah on the slave issue!

"Ned Stark took away my lands blahblahblah..."

"...you sold slaves."

"...aye..."

lol. At least TV!Jorah had the decency to look a little abashed.

There was an absolutely hilarious thread a few months back in which the poster made this very argument. One of the responses noted that it came off as a Viserys' post-mortem POV. Very funny stuff.

OH GOD not that thread! It would have been funny if the OP were really trolling, but I think he actually believed what he was saying! SO MUCH RAAAAAGE!

I have very little sympathy for Viserys. Alexia, I'd be interested in why you feel sorry for him in this chapter. He's completely impossible and lacking in any traits which I find sympathetic - there is quite literally nothing likable about him. It's amazing how long Dany triest to defend her abuser, but I guess that's how things tend to work in abusive relationships.... sadly.

[Lord Damian]

I do think that either her and Visery's were intended to be gotten rid of possibly, what about giving her valuable dragon eggs? After Drogo's and Viserys deaths, it seems that they intended for Griff and Dany to Mary keeping with customs before arriving in Westeros.

[Alexia]

Well, Jorah's lack of personal integrity on this issue and many others is absolutely his greatest weakness. But I wouldn't want Ned to have caught up to him, he has many other excellent qualities which make him an invaluable ally to Daenerys, many of which were on display this chapter. We've now seen how poorly a perfect knight (Barristan) compares in his position...

Let me clarify. For all that I hop up and down with outrage on the subject of Jorah, he is actually a very good and entertaining character. From the standpoint of a reader, I'm glad Jorah escaped because I can enjoy being outraged by him and he contributes a lot to the story. From a moral standpoint -- I can't tell you how delighted I was at his fate in the last book. ;)

Ramsay and Roose weren't openly committing atrocities. Roose was very careful about keeping quiet and making sure no tales were told of him. Ramsay didn't become a problem until daddy left, near as I can tell.

OH GOD not that thread! It would have been funny if the OP were really trolling, but I think he actually believed what he was saying! SO MUCH RAAAAAGE!

I think he did too, and it was soooo funny!

I have very little sympathy for Viserys. Alexia, I'd be interested in why you feel sorry for him in this chapter. He's completely impossible and lacking in any traits which I find sympathetic - there is quite literally nothing likable about him.

He's so out of his depth, alone, unrespected, used and thrown away. I wouldn't do very well if you tossed me into the middle of a Mongol horde, either. He resents Dany for her ability to fit into the horde and that she's finally found a place, while he has none.

Viserys isn't an admirable character, in fact, he's quite the nasty piece of work. But I can still spare him some pity.

[Sevumar]

Well, Jorah's lack of personal integrity on this issue and many others is absolutely his greatest weakness. But I wouldn't want Ned to have caught up to him, he has many other excellent qualities which make him an invaluable ally to Daenerys, many of which were on display this chapter. We've now seen how poorly a perfect knight (Barristan) compares in his position...

While there is some aversion to taking responsibility, I don't think that's quite the only thing going on here, and I'll go into that a little more below where you talk about the terrible things other lords do to their people. But I think the point you make here is one that's overlooked by a lot of Barristan and Daenerys fans, she has yet to encounter a better military adviser than Jorah. Barristan offers her a lot of advice that gets ignored or brushed aside, but he's also ill-equipped to deal with a lot of stuff.

To play devil's advocate here for a moment, everyone seems to know what horrors Roose and Ramsey Bolton were committing against their own people. Jorah (in his arrogance) likely thought, "why should such men go unpunished by Ned Stark while I am forced to exile or death for punishing criminals as I saw fit?"

There's some evidence in the text and companion materials that suggests Jorah is somewhat justified in his feelings. Lords have pretty wide latitude to punish criminals as they choose. He could've sent the poachers to the Wall, but he probably would've been within his rights to execute them as well. The one thing that's beyond the pale here is slavery, because they don't do it in Westeros. It's not a good thing to do to someone, but neither does it merit beheading a loyal and very capable bannerman.

I don't blame Jorah for being upset about the double-standard here, but that's not the only thing in play. We see elsewhere that he has a hard time taking responsibility for his part in other things as well. It's also worth noting that he does regret his actions and he's always keenly aware of the damage he's done to himself and his family.

I have very little sympathy for Viserys. Alexia, I'd be interested in why you feel sorry for him in this chapter. He's completely impossible and lacking in any traits which I find sympathetic - there is quite literally nothing likable about him. It's amazing how long Dany triest to defend her abuser, but I guess that's how things tend to work in abusive relationships.... sadly.

I find Viserys to be a lot like Cersei in that it's appropriate have empathy for the suffering he's endured and you can its role in forging his personality and behavior. That doesn't excuse the way he turns around and abuses other people as a result. He is one of those people that Dany would never associate with if he wasn't a relative, but because of the fact that is her brother and she's been dependent on him for so long, she goes on defending him for longer than he deserves.

Her flexibility and openness to learning about the Dothraki help her survive early on, but as time goes by, I think she internalizes more of Viserys than she realizes. To her, I think it comes across as "finding herself," but to me, it looks like a sense of superiority and entitlement. By the time we get to ADWD, it's just painful to read and it keeps me from respecting her as much as I did early on in the series. We're all justified in having a certain amount of pride in our identities and our origins and in AGoT, it's at a healthy level for Dany, but I think it gets out of control afterward.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

But I think the point you make here is one that's overlooked by a lot of Barristan and Daenerys fans, she has yet to encounter a better military adviser than Jorah. Barristan offers her a lot of advice that gets ignored or brushed aside, but he's also ill-equipped to deal with a lot of stuff.

Jorah's greatest value seems to be as a cultural adviser. He somehow knows a shit-ton about practically every culture/city/country in Essos. And the more time he spends with new cultures, the more he seems to respect them if the Dothraki are any indication. Barristan knows next to nothing, and seems to have no desire to learn more. He even whines about how the food is too spicy in Meereen.

There's some evidence in the text and companion materials that suggests Jorah is somewhat justified in his feelings. Lords have pretty wide latitude to punish criminals as they choose. He could've sent the poachers to the Wall, but he probably would've been within his rights to execute them as well. The one thing that's beyond the pale here is slavery, because they don't do it in Westeros. It's not a good thing to do to someone, but neither does it merit beheading a loyal and very capable bannerman.

I don't blame Jorah for being upset about the double-standard here,

I blame him. The problem is a means/end one. Why did Jorah "punish" his poachers by selling them? Not for justice. Not because "that's the way the law is on Bear Island and I rule my lands as I see fit." No. He did it to make money, in order to buy his wife's happiness. This is quite despicable. I totally get how Jorah could justify his actions to himself in his head - that's why I wrote that bit, but it's a complete self-delusion. He must know just how awful what he did was. He just won't admit it to anyone including himself.

I have much more sympathy for his other major crime (spying) than I do for this one...

but that's not the only thing in play. We see elsewhere that he has a hard time taking responsibility for his part in other things as well. It's also worth noting that he does regret his actions and he's always keenly aware of the damage he's done to himself and his family.

I think you're probably right, deep down... Deep down I suppose he has a lot of self loathing. But he rarely shows regret and instead blames everyone under the sun for his shame, which really is cowardly. In aGoT "It's all Ned Stark's fault! He stole my happiness!" And then in aCoK (and aDwD), "It's all Lynesse's fault! I was the perfect husband, and she just wanted more! I had no choice!" It certainly doesn't seem as if he is "always keenly aware" of the damage he did to his family. It's far more typical of him to blame others...

Something I find redeeming in Jorah is that he does not blame Daenerys for his fate after aSoS. It would have been so easy, and so consistent with his character, to hate her for what happened. But he does not, and in fact decides that the only thing to be done is to throw himself at her mercy. This is actually a step up for him, even while it might seem rather pathetic.

Her flexibility and openness to learning about the Dothraki help her survive early on, but as time goes by, I think she internalizes more of Viserys than she realizes. To her, I think it comes across as "finding herself," but to me, it looks like a sense of superiority and entitlement.

I don't see her as having unwarranted feelings of superiority, in aDwD or earlier. She is certainly stubborn in her quest to become queen, and is ruthless towards her enemies (though who besides Eddard Stark is not?). But unlike Viserys she is plagued by self-doubt, and often questions herself. She believes it is important to become worthy of the great responsibility that she bears due to her blood and destiny. Anyway we'll cross that bridge as we come to it. :)

I find Viserys to be a lot like Cersei in that it's appropriate have empathy for the suffering he's endured and you can its role in forging his personality and behavior. That doesn't excuse the way he turns around and abuses other people as a result.

I find Cersei much more sympathetic. First, she is (at least in books 1-3) capable (intelligent, political, and adaptable) whereas Viserys is stupid, pitiful and inflexible. Secondly, she cares about her family's rights, not just her own, unlike Viserys who abuses his only family while railing about his own rights.

Also the idea that Viserys has "suffered" I find extremely overblown. Yes his family was killed but he barely remembers any of them. He was in exile, but we found out when rereading Dany's first chapter that they'd been housed by noblemen in all the free cities for nearly all their life, living in relative comfort. Viserys' "suffering" seems to me to be mostly self-inflicted. Dany came through the same with her very worst memories being Viserys' wroth. It can't have been that bad.

Then again Cersei's life isn't that horrible either until she marries Robert... Well the sexism was bad, too, but her childhood seems to have been fairly happy.