[ADwD Spoilers] A Daenerys Character Arc Reread

[Kingslayer28]

Dany's arc in Game of Thrones is still one of my favorite from the entire series, So it's awesome that you guys are doing a re-read thread like this.

PS For all the Dany-haters...why are you even reading this thread? This is clearly a thread for folks who enjoy Dany's story/arc. So go on one of the dozens of anti-Dany threads and bash her over there. That is all. :bs:

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Dany's arc in Game of Thrones is still one of my favorite from the entire series, So it's awesome that you guys are doing a re-read thread like this.

PS For all the Dany-haters...why are you even reading this thread? This is clearly a thread for folks who enjoy Dany's story/arc. So go on one of the dozens of anti-Dany threads and bash her over there. That is all. :bs:

All views on Daenerys are welcome to participate in this reread as we said from the start. The hosts are a sometimes Dany-disliker (Alexia) and a forever unshakeable Dany-backer (myself). Don't worry, we can handle it.

But welcome to the thread! I always like to meet more allies! ;)

[Alexia]

Yeah, I think folks in the thread can expect to see the hosts go at each other sometimes. :lol: We have some very dramatically different interpretations of Daenerys -- I for one thought she was developing into the new Tywin at the end of ASOS. I'm not exactly sure at the end of ADWD but I still rather think that is where her character is heading.

This is clearly a thread for folks who enjoy Dany's story/arc.

Nah, this is a thread for me to get all the details of her character arc clear so I can keep up with MDIND in our lively debates. The more the merrier. ;)

[Alexia]

Jorah's greatest value seems to be as a cultural adviser. He somehow knows a shit-ton about practically every culture/city/country in Essos. And the more time he spends with new cultures, the more he seems to respect them if the Dothraki are any indication. Barristan knows next to nothing, and seems to have no desire to learn more. He even whines about how the food is too spicy in Meereen.

I actually agree with you here. Jorah is a much better and more interesting character than Barristan.

I think you're probably right, deep down... Deep down I suppose he has a lot of self loathing. But he rarely shows regret and instead blames everyone under the sun for his shame, which really is cowardly. In aGoT "It's all Ned Stark's fault! He stole my happiness!" And then in aCoK (and aDwD), "It's all Lynesse's fault! I was the perfect husband, and she just wanted more! I had no choice!" It certainly doesn't seem as if he is "always keenly aware" of the damage he did to his family. It's far more typical of him to blame others...

Why... this sounds like something I would say about him! Seriously, that is his single greatest flaw -- the inability to accept responsibility.

Something I find redeeming in Jorah is that he does not blame Daenerys for his fate after aSoS. It would have been so easy, and so consistent with his character, to hate her for what happened. But he does not, and in fact decides that the only thing to be done is to throw himself at her mercy. This is actually a step up for him, even while it might seem rather pathetic.

How did you expect him to react at the end of ASOS? Did you have any theories? I was unsure but wondering if he would go for revenge.

Also the idea that Viserys has "suffered" I find extremely overblown. Yes his family was killed but he barely remembers any of them.

He was 8 years old when they fled KL, and therefore must have been about 9 or so when his mother died. I have very distinct memories from well before eight years old. The poor child must have suffered a lot -- an older, undoubtedly idolized brother killed, beloved mother dies in childbirth, his father is murdered, his sister-in-law horribly murdered and the babies he undoubtedly loved butchered. Then running for his life with butchers coming to his family's castle to kill him.

And after that, relative comfort or no, he was living on charity. He didn't have the skills to be able to pull himself up by the bootstraps, and Varys and Illyrio were too invested in making sure that he could never be a competitor to their precious Aegon.

[mediocre cheese]

He was 8 years old when they fled KL, and therefore must have been about 9 or so when his mother died. I have very distinct memories from well before eight years old. The poor child must have suffered a lot -- an older, undoubtedly idolized brother killed, beloved mother dies in childbirth, his father is murdered, his sister-in-law horribly murdered and the babies he undoubtedly loved butchered. Then running for his life with butchers coming to his family's castle to kill him.

Is there any evidence he undoubtedly loved his nephew and niece? If anything I'd assume he be somewhat negative toward them based on his whole "dragon doesn't mate with lesser beasts" attitude, and that they were directly blocking him off in the line of succession. Plus he may have internalized his father's belief that dorne betrays the targaryens. Not that an 8 year old would seriously think about a line of succession, but based on everything we know of viserys it seems unlikely to me that undoubtedly loved rhaegar's children.

[brashcandy]

The reason I feel sorry for Viserys is something a point Alexia made in one of earlier chapter analyses: He was largely neglected and left uneducated and untrained for his future role - now we know that Varys and Illyrio always saw him as expendable

since they had the heir - Aegon

and the spare - Dany. I just see him as a pathetic figure, mean and spiteful and cruel, but still at the mercy of others who played him like a fool. He's the tragic example of kids that can internalise all the wrongs done to them and their family, and turn into abusers themselves. (say a prayer for Rickon) Plus he's probably legitimately insane like his father.

How did you expect him to react at the end of ASOS? Did you have any theories? I was unsure but wondering if he would go for revenge.

I actually thought he might head back over to Westeros, try to make up with his father at the Wall - but a part of me always suspected he would be hanging around the Free Cities trying to find a way back in.

I was delighted when he kidnapped Tyrion and packed him off to Dany. And I'm a bit sorry now that he has that awful slave brand - what is it with GRRM and physical mutilation/scarring? Anyways I hope Dany takes pity on him and gives him one night of comfort/loving :(

Can ya'll see Jorah with any of the other women back home in Westeros?

[Alexia]

Okay, my chapter commentary:

I found it incredibly amusing to see Dany use her sexual wiles on Drogo to get Viserys out of his cart and riding with them again.

What are the shadow lands beyond Asshai? Do we know anything about them? I suspect she's heading to Asshai in TWOW, so we can hope to see them soon but they are always mentioned as this mysterious place and I'm intrigued.

Viserys reminds me of people I know, speaking in one language to insult people he thinks don't understand him. Cowardly, rude, and greatly deserving of embarrassment by those understanding him. As I read, I think that Drogo wasn't really going to follow through on his promises to Viserys. As little respect as he had for him, I don't see him putting Viserys in charge of part of his khalasar. As I read Jorah's talk about Dothraki vs Westerosi, I shuddered at what Daenerys and Viserys were planning to unleash upon their poor kingdom. I'm glad Viserys never got near the Iron Throne and I only hope the same holds true for Daenerys.

Jorah blames Ned for losing everything he loves for "a few lice-ridden poachers and his precious honor." I already spoke my piece on that upthread but think it deserves quoting.

I found it interesting that Drogo's bloodriders were sexually abusing Dany's slaves, given later events in the book. I also note that Daenerys is in no way culturally Westerosi -- she wants her son to have bloodriders to protect against treachery in his kingsguard. Can you just imagine how that would go over in the Seven Kingdoms? :lol:

Daenerys and Viserys have (well, try to have) dinner so that she can give him some proper clothes. Starts badly (Viserys says he should have sent back Doreah's head for using the word "command") and ends badly (Daenerys hits him across the face with the belt of golden medallions and tells him that Khal Drogo might feed him his own entrails).

All in all, its a good chapter but I agree with MDIND that it is more about world building than plot driven. Vaes Dothrak sounds like quite the place -- and its supposed to hold every Dothraki from every khalasar at once. I suspect we'll see them all gather there in TWOW.

I won't be around very much tomorrow, but I'll get the next chapter recap up on Friday. IIRC, Viserys will get crowned there... so, should be fun.

Edited to correct a very unfortunate typo...

[ZacharyB]

I've read that George said we're never going to see Asshai, which is strange considering Quaithe's prophecy.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Can ya'll see Jorah with any of the other women back home in Westeros?

The "unsullied" TV watchers once speculated that Jorah x Catelyn should happen after Ned's death. Not a bad idea... prior to AsoS anyway. Of course his birth is likely much too low to tempt a Tully of Riverrun, but at least they are age-appropriate, and both widow/erd. The Seagaurd guy seemed to be the most likely candidate for Catelyn prior to her un-ing.

There's also noise of a Brienne x Jorah ship out in the fandom which honestly... no. Yeah ok let's put the two ugliest characters together despite the fact that they have literally nothing else in common. How about no.

In the end... given his track record with women, I'd honestly say that Jorah x celibacy is probably the most practical solution. :P Unless as Brashcandy suggests he could get some pity sex from Dany once in awhile just to keep him going. Hahaha... he'd take it in a heartbeat, you all know it...

I actually agree with you here. Jorah is a much better and more interesting character than Barristan.

Why... this sounds like something I would say about him! Seriously, that is his single greatest flaw -- the inability to accept responsibility.

I suppose that I like him very much despite his faults and you very much dislike him for the same reasons? Well that's good. Much better than actually disagreeing on the fundamentals. ;)

How did you expect him to react at the end of ASOS? Did you have any theories? I was unsure but wondering if he would go for revenge.

I worried he would go for revenge (probably against Barristan) and die in some melodramatic way. Alternative to vengeance, he might kill one of Dany's suitors.

But I thought it more likely he would move on, go back to Westeros, and try to obtain his pardon. He's an adaptable guy. As he told Daenerys before she climed Drogo's pyre, "I did not die when my lady wife left..." he's shown the ability to pick himself up after complete and utter failure and do something productive with himself, one way or another.

Failing that, I very much hoped that he would join the Night's Watch. The experience with Dany in this scenario would have been the wake-up-call to him that he needed to deal with his issues. Like now. His biggest "issue" being the original crime of slaving and destroying his house.

I did have a slight notion that Jorah might run into one of Dany's suitors on the way, and ingratiate himself with them in order to return to Meereen. I didn't quite consider the possibility of kidnapping, however! Was a welcome surprise. Also the slaver-turned-slave thing was brutal but I hope will help the poor bastard prioritize... Also, he took a level in badass in the process, so it wasn't a total negative.

He was 8 years old when they fled KL, and therefore must have been about 9 or so when his mother died. I have very distinct memories from well before eight years old. The poor child must have suffered a lot -- an older, undoubtedly idolized brother killed, beloved mother dies in childbirth, his father is murdered, his sister-in-law horribly murdered and the babies he undoubtedly loved butchered. Then running for his life with butchers coming to his family's castle to kill him.

I don't know where you get the idea that Viserys ever really loved anyone, let alone the litany of characters you've listed. He certainly showed he doesn't give a damn about his sister, his closest kin. He'd rather she be brutally assaulted by thousands of men if it gets him the power he wants. The evidence to me says that he has never loved anyone but himself.

It really seems to me that what he hates is the loss of his own power. Which was little enough, considering he was only third in line of succession in any case...

I think the fundamental dissonance here is that Daenerys went through nearly the exact same experience. And yet she turned into a remarkable person. Viserys got worse and worse as time went on, until he actually died from his own incompetence and idiocy. This reduces my ability to sympathize with Viserys to almost zero.

[Sevumar]

Jorah's greatest value seems to be as a cultural adviser. He somehow knows a shit-ton about practically every culture/city/country in Essos. And the more time he spends with new cultures, the more he seems to respect them if the Dothraki are any indication.

Yeah, in AGoT, we're not really sure if his knowledge of the Dothraki is something unique or indicative of a widely traveled, observant person. After ADWD, it looks a lot more like this is indicative of a deep well of knowledge about a variety of locales and cultures on Essos.

We don't get to see much of the Lonely Jorah Travel Guide on display in ADWD, but it really comes through in Volantis.

I blame him. The problem is a means/end one. Why did Jorah "punish" his poachers by selling them? Not for justice. Not because "that's the way the law is on Bear Island and I rule my lands as I see fit." No. He did it to make money, in order to buy his wife's happiness. This is quite despicable. I totally get how Jorah could justify his actions to himself in his head - that's why I wrote that bit, but it's a complete self-delusion. He must know just how awful what he did was. He just won't admit it to anyone including himself.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think there are indications that he accepts some responsibility for what happened to him, perhaps not as much as he should. I think it's fair to point out that lords can get away with raping, torturing, and abusing their people in a lot of ways for nothing more than their own amusement/gain, but the moment slavery enters the equation, all the rules change. And there's some content in ADWD that makes me thing he has admitted his part in his tragedy, but that doesn't mean he has to like it or can't be bitter about it.

I have much more sympathy for his other major crime (spying) than I do for this one...

I don't think there was actually a crime there. The spying thing was more about deciding whose pawn he was going to be and where he thought his loyalty belonged.

It certainly doesn't seem as if he is "always keenly aware" of the damage he did to his family. It's far more typical of him to blame others...

I can point out the passages that suggest this to me when I have some more time.

I don't see her as having unwarranted feelings of superiority, in aDwD or earlier. She is certainly stubborn in her quest to become queen, and is ruthless towards her enemies (though who besides Eddard Stark is not?). But unlike Viserys she is plagued by self-doubt, and often questions herself. She believes it is important to become worthy of the great responsibility that she bears due to her blood and destiny. Anyway we'll cross that bridge as we come to it. :)

She has doubts, yes, but she's also fairly resistant to taking advice. Some of her beliefs and views are superior to others in the world, from my modern standpoint, but I find other things she believes and does to be pretty repulsive. I think the reason I like her best in AGoT is she still has some humility and doesn't seem all wrapped up in destiny/birthrights/rulership. It's one of the few books where she earns what she has.

I find Cersei much more sympathetic. First, she is (at least in books 1-3) capable (intelligent, political, and adaptable) whereas Viserys is stupid, pitiful and inflexible. Secondly, she cares about her family's rights, not just her own, unlike Viserys who abuses his only family while railing about his own rights.

I never found her to be that capable. She was stupid, pitiful and inflexible in her own way, but she is older and better at hiding it than Viserys is. As the books go on, the veneer begins to come away and we see her willing to openly alienate more and more of her allies.

Also the idea that Viserys has "suffered" I find extremely overblown. Yes his family was killed but he barely remembers any of them. He was in exile, but we found out when rereading Dany's first chapter that they'd been housed by noblemen in all the free cities for nearly all their life, living in relative comfort. Viserys' "suffering" seems to me to be mostly self-inflicted. Dany came through the same with her very worst memories being Viserys' wroth. It can't have been that bad.

I don't think it's ever easy to grow up as a vagrant. Sure, he might've had rich patrons, but he never really had anything of his own and no family with which he could bond. I'm not saying any of those things would've changed the worst parts of his personality, but I do think we can see that he's lived a pretty lonely life. Part of his suffering comes from the fact that he was old enough to remember a different standard of living, stability, and other benefits of his life in Westeros and Braavos. I do find being the target of mockery and lacking a stable place to live and strong parental figures to be suffering. These things all have a profound impact on the lives of people who live through them. Viserys was never that strong of a person to begin with, so it did contribute to his destruction.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

What are the shadow lands beyond Asshair? Do we know anything about them? I suspect she's heading to Asshai in TWOW, so we can hope to see them soon but they are always mentioned as this mysterious place and I'm intrigued.

You've got me. We know that Melisandre is from there. And that Jorah was planning to take Daenerys there at the end of agot. Also it's the furthest point East that's yet been mentioned (East of Quarth in other words).

As I read Jorah's talk about Dothraki vs Westerosi, I shuddered at what Daenerys and Viserys were planning to unleash upon their poor kingdom. I'm glad Viserys never got near the Iron Throne and I only hope the same holds true for Daenerys.

As Jorah later says there is a savage beast in every man waiting to be unleashed. He witnessed worse atrocities during the sack of King's Landing than ever he saw the Horde commit. I don't think that the Dothraki are actually that much worse than Westrosi men when you come down to it.

Besides, what, she has... like 20 Dothraki left? And they are loyal to her and will follow her commands not to rape or kill children as well as they have so far. Unless you are thinking that she will use the Horde she just encountered at the end of adwd. I don't think that will happen TBH.

I also note that Daenerys is in no way culturally Westerosi -- she wants her son to have bloodriders to protect against treachery in his kingsguard. Can you just imagine how that would go over in the Seven Kingdoms? :lol:

So Queen Reagent Daenerys, Aegon the conquerer reborn, uncontested ruler and savior of Westeros wants to have three Dothraki bodyguards for her half-Dothraki-son? I don't see anyone making a lot of fuss. Would you rather she put them in white cloaks first? :dunno:

Yeah, in AGoT, we're not really sure if his knowledge of the Dothraki is something unique or indicative of a widely traveled, observant person. After ADWD, it looks a lot more like this is indicative of a deep well of knowledge about a variety of locales and cultures on Essos.

Not just adwd. He talks about a dozen different cultures/cities during their travels in acok and asos. For example when Daenerys is considering the unsullied he tells her a story about how Qohor defended against 20000 dothraki screamers with only 3000 unsullied (obviously a homage to the 300 Spartans). Clearly we should publish Lonely Jorah's Travel Guide to Essos lol...

And there's some content in ADWD that makes me thing he has admitted his part in his tragedy, but that doesn't mean he has to like it or can't be bitter about it.

Oh he can angst away all day and I'll eat it up, in fact knowing he's mainly to blame fuels that. His weakness is not being able to admit, outloud, to anyone that this is the truth of it. I think only Daenerys could drag it out of him, and perhaps she will.

I don't think there was actually a crime there. The spying thing was more about deciding whose pawn he was going to be and where he thought his loyalty belonged.

A fair point, though the thing about espionage is that it is always treason to someone. I do find his actions here extremely understandable. Though, spies whose loyalties shift too quickly aren't very good spies... nor perhaps, as Daenerys opined, very good queensguard?

I can point out the passages that suggest this to me when I have some more time.

I think I will be pointing them out myself for Alexia's sake as we are going along lol. You know I am a Jorah backer too.

I think the reason I like her best in AGoT is she still has some humility and doesn't seem all wrapped up in destiny/birthrights/rulership. It's one of the few books where she earns what she has.

She absolutely earns her glory in a storm of swords, in my opinion. More so than agot where she basically fucks things up and comes out okay anyway because dragons. But, we will surely get there in due time!!!

I never found her to be that capable. She was stupid, pitiful and inflexible in her own way, but she is older and better at hiding it than Viserys is. As the books go on, the veneer begins to come away and we see her willing to openly alienate more and more of her allies.

Cersei's main issue is that while Tywin and Tyrion both live by the motto "a Lannister always Pays his Debts" - meaning punishes the bad and pays the good - Cersei only follows the first part of that equation. She only uses the stick. The stick does not buy loyalty, while the coinpurse (and lands/titles/respect) does... She lacks diplomacy, in other words. As for alienating allies, In a feast for crows I had no problem with her attitude towards the Tyrells for example. She was actually absolutely right in mistrusting them. They actually did kill Joffery, remember?

[Kingslayer28]

Yeah, I think folks in the thread can expect to see the hosts go at each other sometimes. :lol: We have some very dramatically different interpretations of Daenerys -- I for one thought she was developing into the new Tywin at the end of ASOS. I'm not exactly sure at the end of ADWD but I still rather think that is where her character is heading.

Nah, this is a thread for me to get all the details of her character arc clear so I can keep up with MDIND in our lively debates. The more the merrier. ;)

Ah, yeah sorry about that. I was probably a little over the top with my post anyway lol

[Sevumar]

Not just adwd. He talks about a dozen different cultures/cities during their travels in acok and asos. For example when Daenerys is considering the unsullied he tells her a story about how Qohor defended against 20000 dothraki screamers with only 3000 unsullied (obviously a homage to the 300 Spartans). Clearly we should publish Lonely Jorah's Travel Guide to Essos lol...

I agree on the travel guide :) The guy knows all the best local hole-in-the-wall eateries, how to find transportation, and the most secure place to stay the night with your captive in tow. I only used the examples I did because, while he knows the lore about places like Qohor, do we actually know if he's been there or not?

I think it'd be fun to read a short story or a novella about his adventures as a mercenary early in his exile.

Oh he can angst away all day and I'll eat it up, in fact knowing he's mainly to blame fuels that. His weakness is not being able to admit, outloud, to anyone that this is the truth of it. I think only Daenerys could drag it out of him, and perhaps she will.

I'm looking forward to seeing if this will all eventually come out between them. We've had several "important" conversations teased and then deferred. He doesn't seem to have a problem admitting it in general terms, but it seems he has an aversion to mentioning specific things he did, as we see in ACoK.

I think I will be pointing them out myself for Alexia's sake as we are going along lol. You know I am a Jorah backer too.

It's shaping up to be a good thread :)

She absolutely earns her glory in a storm of swords, in my opinion. More so than agot where she basically fucks things up and comes out okay anyway because dragons. But, we will surely get there in due time!!!

I disagree with your take on this, but I suspect we're looking at it from different points of view. As you say, we'll get there in due time.

Cersei's main issue is that while Tywin and Tyrion both live by the motto "a Lannister always Pays his Debts" - meaning punishes the bad and pays the good - Cersei only follows the first part of that equation. She only uses the stick. The stick does not buy loyalty, while the coinpurse (and lands/titles/respect) does... She lacks diplomacy, in other words. As for alienating allies, In a feast for crows I had no problem with her attitude towards the Tyrells for example. She was actually absolutely right in mistrusting them. They actually did kill Joffery, remember?

I agree in general with what you're saying about Cersei, and to be honest, I see a lot of the same in Viserys. He's forever threatening people, but he's rarely in a position to deliver those punishments. Perhaps it's more accurate to say he has the same understanding as Cersei, but she's generally able to accomplish the punishments she threatens. Viserys is certainly lacking in diplomacy and it almost seems like he's completely unable to imagine the world from anyone else's perspective.

[Early Earl]

I want to add a few words on Viserys:

Being a child, the most important thing to grow up healthy are stable relations to your parental figures (don't know better english words here). The thing that messes up a child most is tearing him out of his used environment and take all his contact-persons from him. That's what happened to the poor kid. And above that he was handed around like a zoo animal. He couldn't really adapt to the new situation by becoming a more humble person because showing off the angry exiled heir of the iron throne was what entertained the people that fed him and his sister he was responsible for. His crazy fixation on winning back the iron throne is easily explained if you imagine how much support he became for talikng about it: it would've amused the people and made them be nice to him. If you do that to a ten-year-old sure he will develope the sense that this is the most important and valuable thing about himself. Where else get self-confidence without getting education or ... anything?

So he turned out to be an asshole. But he's not at all to blame for it. He has not have one! person to talk honest and straight to him. Even at his age Illyrio still could've set his head straight like "you are nothing, noone cares for you, you are a beggar". Instead he flatters him... So I can feel only pitty for the messed up guy and there's no comparison to Daenerys who had Viserys as some sort of parental figure at least.

[Lemonraven]

What are the shadow lands beyond Asshair? Do we know anything about them? I suspect she's heading to Asshai in TWOW, so we can hope to see them soon but they are always mentioned as this mysterious place and I'm intrigued.

Bran saw dragons stirring in Asshai (though maybe this just refers to Dany's eggs)

The place seems important to magic, since there have been mentions of shadowbinders and maegis there (or that learned in the city)

I believe that Dany will have to travel there because of Quaithe's prophecy that "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

[Cydal]

Hi Alexia! Thanks for this great idea and inviting me to participate. Hi also to anyone else that might read this (though if it's just us that's fine by me).

I'm going to first post my reactions to my reread of the chapter before reading your summary.

First thought - Daenerys doesn't miss much, she's a smart cookie. She is patient, watching, drinking in any knowledge she can get. She follows the gossip in the streets about Illyrio, and knows from that not to trust him. She understands the hypocrisy of Illyrio having slaves: "there were no slaves in Pentos, nevertheless, these were slaves." She already is aware what a naive fool Viserys is about well, pretty much everything. Yet despite years of abuse she is not mentally cowed by Viserys, but she doesn't hate him either, or even really judge him. It's quite a contrast to the other young women PoV's, who are characterized during aGoT by their extreme levels of mistrust and naive trust respectively. Daenerys falls in the middle, aware of the bad, but aware of the limits of her own power.

Next, I found this chapter deeply creepy because of things we learned about in a dance with dragons

Namely that we found out both Viserys and Illyrio were on the verge of raping her shortly after the betrothal scene. In fact everything Illyrio did was cast in a new light by this. "She is a vision, your grace. A vision". *shudder*

Suffice it to say, Dany's instincts about Illyrio were dead on. And I'm thankful she ultimately chose to go to Slaver's Bay in a Storm of Swords rather than returning to Illyrio's power.

We also have our first hint that Rhaegar may not be a villain - Daenerys has been told that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. This is in stark contrast the story we just heard from Robert, that Rhaegar supposedly raped and murdered Lyanna. We now have two contrasting narratives which will continue to do battle throughout the books. It's significant that we don't know by whom she was told - could be Viserys, could be the knight who helped them flee, or it could be general knowledge.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Dany and my dislike of her only tripled when she said Ned Stark was a traitor and died a traitor's death. But nice catch on her perceptiveness, She reminds me of someone else's first chapter in AGOT. Someone who like her, felt a bit like an outsider in the midst of her own people and someone who we noticed was incredibly perceptive...The Silent Wolf. A lot of her story has paralleled Jon's so many times even though in the opposite way. An example is

In ADWD, They had both just come into a position of power and while Jon was uncompromising in his attitude, she was too compromising and both were subject to an assassination attempt and both presumed dead by a lot of people.

[Alexia]

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, new chapter!

AGOT Chapter V Summary & Analysis

This chapter opens with Dany dining on yummy horse heart which will make her son strong and swift and fearless. If she chokes or pukes the baby will be stillborn, weak, deformed, or female. This was the nastiest scene in the HBO series, and as I have a lively and active gag reflex that my dentist hates, I had to close my eyes for it. :stillsick:

Dany saw that the khal was proud of her as she was succeeding in chewing that nasty muscle.

“I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves. As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.”

And we say MMD isn’t a hero. :rofl:

But I actually think that this prophecy was about Dany, not her baby. See how the old woman is afraid of her?

Rhaego is named after Rhaegar, kidnapper and despoiler of Lyanna. It is an appropriate name for a child prophesied to fuck the world over, given what a good job Rhaegar did of that when it came to Westeros and House Targaryen. :P

She comes out of the Womb of the World lake (with sacred waters) after purifying herself and Drogo gets the urge to bang her in front of the crones of the dosh khaleen and the other khals. Sadly, he only lasts three strokes. Better luck next time, Drogo! :lol:

What the hell is curdled, fermented mare’s milk and what kind of person would drink such a terrible thing? Wouldn’t that make you sick? Does such a thing actually exist?

Khal Jommo and Khal Ogo were in Vaes Dothrak with their khalasars when Drogo arrived. I’m making special note of it because for a while I had it in my head that Drogo had united the Dothraki.

Ser Jorah earned a place of respect with the Dothraki – his sword skill is greatly esteemed by them. I think this is notable due to Viserys’ failure at doing so.

Viserys is always at the bazaars drinking wine with traders, he can’t stand the mare’s milk (and Dany notes that even the smell of it makes her feel sick). Jorah said he wanted to hire some sellswords for his army. He then tells her that Viserys wanted to take her dragon eggs to sell but Jorah threatened to cut off his hand if he touched them. Dany says that her brother is all she has left and he can have them if he asks; there is no need to steal them. Jorah tells her she belongs to the Dothraki now.

”The stallion is the khal of khals promised in an ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd.”

So this is Jorah’s take on the prophecy. I think it supports the idea that the prophecy is really about Dany – the prince that was promised, most likely, but the Dothraki version. It seems very likely that she will unite the Dothraki and take them to Mereen or…. somewhere.

Now Viserys arrives and all hell breaks loose.

“Where is my sister?” Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine. “I’ve come for her feast. How dare you presume to eat without me? No one eats before the king. Where is she? The whore can’t hide from the dragon.”

How could I not quote his delusions of grandeur? They are just so divorced from the reality he was in.

Dany glanced anxiously up at the high bench. Khal Drogo was saying something to the other khals beside him. Khal Jommo grinned, and Khal Ogo began to guffaw loudly.

*shakes head*

Moving on… Drogo says his place is where the unblooded boys, dim-witted, old men, and maimed are sitting. Viserys says that is no place for a king and Drogo responds that it is a place for the Sorefoot King and then calls for a cart for Khal Rhaggat. Everyone started to laugh. Poor Jorah is panicking trying to calm Viserys down and the two of them start fighting, whereupon Viserys draws his sword.

Dany promised him anything he wanted if he would put away the sword and Jorah called him a fool and told him to do as she said before he got them all killed. Viserys doesn’t think they can kill since they can’t shed blood in the sacred city. He puts his sword at Dany’s stomach and said either he gets the price for her now, or he is taking Dany and the eggs back and cutting Drogo’s bastard out and leaving it for him. And ordered the terrified slave to translate – who began crying and begging that she couldn’t say it. Dany put her arm around the slave and translated herself.

”He says that you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”

His smile tore at her afterwards and she thought it was the saddest thing. Towards the end, while the gold was melting, he tried to beg her for help.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

I massively disagree with this comment. Viserys was of Targaryen blood, as was Dany, and GRRM has said that Dany’s survival on the pyre was a one-time miracle. Quentyn was also of Targaryen descent. However, I’m quoting it here because there’s been some theorizing that she’ll have poor Aegon barbequed to test his Targaryen-ness.

Final Thoughts

This is a really good chapter, start to finish, and I wish GRRM would still write like this. The language is crisp and direct. A sense of foreboding is conveyed immediately when Viserys arrives at the feast and starts talking. I think it may be my favorite Dany chapter that we’ve recapped thus far. And another thing I like about AGOT is that the chapters are relatively short. Each one serves a plot related purpose and moves the story along in some way – the last one was more about characterization and worldbuilding, but it was short and conveyed information that we needed to know.

Some people blame Dany for Viserys’ fate here but really there wasn’t anything she could do. He talked himself into an early grave while she and Jorah tried to save him, and they were fortunate that the Dothraki didn’t have them killed too.

Sorry for the long recap this time but I got into this chapter… discuss!

[brashcandy]

Good recap Alexia, you really seemed to enjoy this one :)

I'm curious about the prophecy on the baby. I believe like you do that Dany is the one who will unite the Dothraki and all that, but did the crones know it at the time, and misled Dany, or did they genuinely believe it was about Rhaego, and somehow along the way the prophecy shifted to Dany?

At this point, Viserys has obviously gone mad. I mean only someone with a clear death wish would be reacting in this way. Do you think it is at all possible that there was any hope for Viserys? Had he not gone with the Khalasar perhaps, or had he been made aware of the marriage pact with Arianne? Or was he doomed from the start?

In terms of the fire cannot kill a dragon, I think she was speaking more symbolically, in the sense that at this moment Viserys is a complete weakling - he was never a real dragon because he allowed himself to be reduced to a raving lunatic that was easily vanquished by the Khal. Of course one thing we can say about Daenerys is that she doesn't give up easily.

[Alexia]

I think they didn't understand it, and were confused, and thought that it must have been about the baby despite indications to the contrary. But it was really about Dany and if they were able to look outside their boxed in worldview about women, they would have realized it. I don't think they deliberately misled her.

Yeah, Viserys pretty much tipped off the edge, between the drunkenness (did I mention he was good and drunk off wine?) and the madness. I don't think it ever had to end this way for him. If he had known about the betrothal to Arianne, if he had people who cared about him, if he didn't remember the slaughter of his family... a lot of "ifs" there. I blame Varys and Illyrio, and I hope they get pecked to death by a swarm of sparrows.

[brashcandy]

Yeah, they probably wouldn't have been able to comprehend that Dany as a woman would be the one to lead the Khalasar.

So was Dany destined then always to be the mother of dragons, and not some little squealing baby? I wonder if around the time she got pregnant, the dragon eggs started reacting to the baby inside her? Crazy thinking :)

Anyways, this chapter seems to mark the time when Dany begins to really harden and toughen up.