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Small Questions XII

Stubby

By Stubby,
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tze Council Member

tze

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Here's something I've never understood: when Robb declared himself a King, his brothers and sisters were considered Princes and Princesses by Robb's subjects (Bran is called "Prince" by people in Winterfell, and that Frey that was originally going to marry Arya was excited about marrying a "princess"). But when Robert took the Iron Throne, his brothers were always called Lord Stannis and Lord Renly, never Prince Stannis and Prince Renly. Same for Balon Greyjoy's brothers; none of the Ironborn call Victarion or Aeron (or Euron, before his ascension) "Prince" of the Iron Islands.

Is this a remnant from the culture of the Kings in the North, or was Robb Stark just more keen on granting royal titles to his siblings than any other newly-made king was? It can't just be because Robb had no children---Robert had no trueborn children when he ascended throne, yet his brothers were never considered princes.

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Dragonfish Council Member

Dragonfish

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Perhaps Stannis and Renly were called lords because they actually held castles and lands of their own (i.e. Dragonstone and the Crownlands for Stannis, Storm's End and the Stormlands for Renly). Though of course, the Targaryen heirs apparent always held Dragonstone, yet were still called "prince." So maybe it's just an oversight on GRRM's part.

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zmflavius Council Member

zmflavius

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Here's something I've never understood: when Robb declared himself a King, his brothers and sisters were considered Princes and Princesses by Robb's subjects (Bran is called "Prince" by people in Winterfell, and that Frey that was originally going to marry Arya was excited about marrying a "princess"). But when Robert took the Iron Throne, his brothers were always called Lord Stannis and Lord Renly, never Prince Stannis and Prince Renly. Same for Balon Greyjoy's brothers; none of the Ironborn call Victarion or Aeron (or Euron, before his ascension) "Prince" of the Iron Islands.

Is this a remnant from the culture of the Kings in the North, or was Robb Stark just more keen on granting royal titles to his siblings than any other newly-made king was? It can't just be because Robb had no children---Robert had no trueborn children when he ascended throne, yet his brothers were never considered princes.

I think that part of the reason may be that the titles of Stannis and Renly, their lordships over Dragonstone and Storm's End, take precedence over their princely title. This may have in part been influenced by the fact that Robert was no more than twenty when he took his crown, and had just married a wife of seventeen. It was reasonable to expect that Robert would sire children, and given Robert's "fruitfulness" probably more than a few, indicating that Stannis and Renly's chances for a crown were remote at best, making the highest title they were likely to get that of their lordships.

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Jem Council Member

Jem

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Perhaps Stannis and Renly were called lords because they actually held castles and lands of their own (i.e. Dragonstone and the Crownlands for Stannis, Storm's End and the Stormlands for Renly). Though of course, the Targaryen heirs apparent always held Dragonstone, yet were still called "prince." So maybe it's just an oversight on GRRM's part.

I am going to hazard a guess and say that Robb felt as though he was resuming the post of King in the North as if that position had never been lost. The Stark family represent an unbroken line of descendants from the King in the North, if that role had never been abolished Robb and his siblings would have been born princes and princesses.

However Robert was taking on a new position as the King of Westeros. He won the crown, he wasn't born to it - and neither were his brothers, therefore they don't get to be princes. If the Baratheons were proposing to reinstigate the Storm Kings with Robert as the King, then I think it would be fair to make Stannis and Renly princes, much in the same manner as the Stark siblings were.

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Galen M Council Member

Galen M

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Perhaps Stannis and Renly were called lords because they actually held castles and lands of their own (i.e. Dragonstone and the Crownlands for Stannis, Storm's End and the Stormlands for Renly). Though of course, the Targaryen heirs apparent always held Dragonstone, yet were still called "prince." So maybe it's just an oversight on GRRM's part.

I am going to hazard a guess and say that Robb felt as though he was resuming the post of King in the North as if that position had never been lost. The Stark family represent an unbroken line of descendants from the King in the North, if that role had never been abolished Robb and his siblings would have been born princes and princesses.

Both good answers and either one could be true, but I have a different theory. Mayhaps it have to due with their ages. It's weird for a 20-30 year old man to instantly become a Prince, as they are their own men at that time. They are adults, so no longer under the guardianship of anyone else. However, with the Stark children, they are not of age, so it seems appropriate for them to instantly become prince/sses. They are (or would have been after the war) under Robb's care, so it makes sense to call style them as you would his children. Likewise, Aegon is always called a Prince, never a king. Just a thought.

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Dragonfish Council Member

Dragonfish

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Both good answers and either one could be true, but I have a different theory. Mayhaps it have to due with their ages. It's weird for a 20-30 year old man to instantly become a Prince, as they are their own men at that time. They are adults, so no longer under the guardianship of anyone else. However, with the Stark children, they are not of age, so it seems appropriate for them to instantly become prince/sses. They are (or would have been after the war) under Robb's care, so it makes sense to call style them as you would his children. Likewise, Aegon is always called a Prince, never a king. Just a thought.

But Renly was pretty young when Robert became king, wasn't he? He's around 20 or so when he dies, so I think he would have been around 5 or 6 at the end of the rebellion.

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Galen M Council Member

Galen M

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But Renly was pretty young when Robert became king, wasn't he? He's around 20 or so when he dies, so I think he would have been around 5 or 6 at the end of the rebellion.

Yeah, I know. I just remembered that after I posted. However, and I might be completely wrong in recalling this, but doesn't Maester Cressen think of Renly as a prince in some context in his prologue?

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Slurms McKenzie Council Member

Slurms McKenzie

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Hmm, I have a small question as it happens, although it isn't entirely related to the Ice and Fire books. Is it weird to keep re-reading books?

Not just the song of ice and fire (which I have done two times now), but just books in general? 'Cos my brother thinks its weird I keep re-reading my books over and over, especially my Terry Pratchett collection (love that guy) when you know the story like the back of your hand. But I like reading all my favourite author's books over and over......

Does anyone else do it? Or is this behaviour bordering upon the obsessive compulsive?

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Evamitchelle Council Member

Evamitchelle

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Hmm, I have a small question as it happens, although it isn't entirely related to the Ice and Fire books. Is it weird to keep re-reading books?

Not just the song of ice and fire (which I have done two times now), but just books in general? 'Cos my brother thinks its weird I keep re-reading my books over and over, especially my Terry Pratchett collection (love that guy) when you know the story like the back of your hand. But I like reading all my favourite author's books over and over......

Does anyone else do it? Or is this behaviour bordering upon the obsessive compulsive?

I wouldn't say it's weird, though I don't really do it myself. I usually page through books I've read before from time to time to re-read my favourite moments but never completely (ASOIaF being the only exception to this). But it's not uncommon at all.

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Lady Littlefinger Sellsword

Lady Littlefinger

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Hey, can someone please help me with this question as i am confused as i did not get this in my reading. Are Craker or ( Craters) ( the guy who gives his sons to the Other) sons the white Walkers?

Hey, can someone please help me with this question as i am confused as i did not get this in my reading. Are Craker or ( Craters) ( the guy who gives his sons to the Other) sons the white Walkers?

You're on about Craster right?

Craster at first appears to sacrifice his infant sons to the Others, but then his wives reveal that at least some of the Others are his sons: “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.

So you may be right.

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zmflavius Council Member

zmflavius

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I was re-watching the first GOT episode last night, and two questions popped into my head:

1) Why were direwolves found south of the wall?

2) Why did Benjen Stark join the NW?

1) I believe it was likely a sign of the changing times, but TBH, I think it may have been nothing more than that a few direwolves have always lived south of the wall, and they've just been largely hidden until now. The wolfswood's a big place.

2) Because unlike every other part of Westeros, Northmen, the Starks in particular, see the Watch as an honorable calling.

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Ojji Hedge Knight

Ojji

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I was re-watching the first GOT episode last night, and two questions popped into my head:

1) Why were direwolves found south of the wall?

2) Why did Benjen Stark join the NW?

Direwolves we're probably sent by the Old Gods of the North.

"Starks have manned the wall for thousands of year."

-- I don't believe there were any specific reason given to why Benjen join the NW

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