White Luck Warrior VII

[Kalbear]

Ok. I'll keep that in mind for you in the future, but it's definitely my understanding that that is the case and it was pretty well established.

[Curethan]

See, the problem I have is with ideas like this;

to the Gods all time is the same time and everything is locked in and determined (stated by one of the philosophers early on)

Because it doesn't make any sense. The gods are described as agencies, and in order to have agency you must have an idea of your current state.

This isn't just my opinion, this is part of the shit I am studying.

The idea that you can have entities that can purposefully interact with the world without any notion of discrete states is ludicrous.

Maybe Bakker doesn't realise this (or just doesn't care) and you are correct in your interpretation - but that would ruin my reading experience.

I'm cool with Bakker's idea of an omniscient god that can only experience itself in discreet 'soul packets' - thats different because it is unconcious and has no voilition.

Sure, the WLW experiences his 'future' as a part of the now - indistinguishible from memory, but he has no agency and no decisions to make. It's all been arranged for him by Yatwer.

Mimara's present tense PoV is bound with the fact that the JE operates exclusively in the now - Galian is damned now, but if she looked at him as an innocent five year old?

And if these two PoV's are your proof, then why are Psatma's PoV's in past tense?

[Kalbear]

I probably misspoke there; the evidence is more that if you're linked with the God then you're at all points in time and everything is now. Nothing clear about that with the Gods. As to Psatma, she is not of the God or even of Yatwer. She has a relationship with Yatwer but she is not causally linked. Mimara is linked through her ability to see with God's eyes. The WLW is in a similar boat, and while the WLW is working with Yatwer's ends it's not a Yatwerian specific thing, more like a natural part of God and balance.

Because it doesn't make any sense. The gods are described as agencies, and in order to have agency you must have an idea of your current state.

Let's assume there is no such thing as a current state and everything has already happened. Therefore, nothing has agency. However, they certainly perceive having agency. This is a central tenet of Bakkeristic neurological thinking - that things happen, and then we rationalize what we did afterwards. Same can be the case for the Gods - something happens, and they say 'well, of course, this is because Yatwer willed it!" when in reality they had no choice in the matter at all.

[Curethan]

Nope, none of that makes any sense to me. Its all very contradictory. It sounds like these gods in their 'subjective' realities are behaving very much like mechanistic systems and there is no evidence of chance or probability.

Even then, a reactive system awaits a certain state before it can react. Nope, not making sense at all. If everything has already happened then that is the current state.

Never did like the idea of a clockwork universe.

[Callan S.]

I've heard of the 'everythings already happened' universe idea.

Just seems a perceptual hiccup. The universe would have had to have been rendered at some point - point B rendered after point A. So it wasn't 'already happened'. Or at the least, if your within such a universe you can consider it that everything has already happened OR that the future is being rendered right at this very moment and nothing of the future is known. Each perception is as valid as the other.

Though a thought just struck me is what if you render in reverse? Start with the conclusion, starting with C, then render B, then A, etc. Heh, the god starting with his conclusion, then rationalising how it all came about...

[lokisnow]

Though a thought just struck me is what if you render in reverse? Start with the conclusion, starting with C, then render B, then A, etc. Heh, the god starting with his conclusion, then rationalising how it all came about...

That is very Bakker.

[Curethan]

Actually thats a fairly standard modeling method for problem solving. You take your goal state and then work backwards to determine an effective action sequence.

Regardless, if there is a change in state then it can only be rendered in terms of time complexity. Remove time and you remove contextual meaning. You simply have a list of objects without predicates or actions. You can't do anything and you can't know anything. You need state based systems for logic.

Remove the idea of now and that light switch is both on and off. What you gunna do?

I think this quote is the one that is most to blame here:

Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive. Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided. Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole. Men need recall this when they pray.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

the Now eludes them... I would suggest that Bakker is saying they don't experience the flow of time like men. That is they exist in a realm where things happen when they want without consideration for the causal flow of time in Earwa. And yet the exogeous systems of the material plane and the outside are undeniably linked. The fragments of time Yatwer experiences are still related to the order they occur in Earwa but they are not contiguous in time or location. For me, this is the reason that the gods covet the souls of mortals - they provide a discrete frame of experience that the gods use to shape their mini-dimensions, thus they want specific souls that accept them as meaningful and divine.

[Kalbear]

Removing time isn't the point. The point is removing the notion of being only able to perceive time as a one-dimensional system where you are completely unaware of what comes afterwards. If you can perceive time as simply another basic dimension, one that things are at at a certain 4-dimensional spacetime point of view, nothing is broken - not even causality.

Another way to put it is this: everything that has come before to us looks like a single line. We know exactly how things happened and when and where (or at least we have the ability to figure these things out). This is how everything looks to the God (and possibly the Gods). Causality exists - or more accurately existed but it's still history to the Gods. Where they enter the equation might be confusing to them but nothing is violated simply because they exist at the end of everything.

[Callan S.]

the Now eludes them... I would suggest that Bakker is saying they don't experience the flow of time like men. That is they exist in a realm where things happen when they want without consideration for the causal flow of time in Earwa.

Yeah, perhaps it's like looking at a timeline? You look at a timeline from the side, and so don't experience the timeline from within it. When you look at a timeline, all of time is 'happening at once'.

I still wonder how the gods could fear Kellhus though - if you can see the end of the timeline, you can see how it ends? Fear is a state of ignorance, isn't it? Perhaps this suggests, given that the no god represents deific ignorance that Kellhus...dotdotdot...

And yet the exogeous systems of the material plane and the outside are undeniably linked. The fragments of time Yatwer experiences are still related to the order they occur in Earwa but they are not contiguous in time or location. For me, this is the reason that the gods covet the souls of mortals - they provide a discrete frame of experience that the gods use to shape their mini-dimensions, thus they want specific souls that accept them as meaningful and divine.

That'd be interesting - like the gods are sort of treading water, just floating, and they seek some sort of turf or gravel to alight upon, which they can't have because they are timeless, but the souls bring with them. If those souls are aligned with them.

lockesnow: Hmmm, it does sound evil like Bakker, yeah. Have to watch out for it! And the reverse rendering really does screw up free will, even more mundane itterations of free will (ie, free will like other men do not know which chess move I will make free will). Or atleast I think it screws it up. That makes it even more likely to be part of population Bakkerville!

[axms_92]

btw, bakker said in the comments on his latest blog post that he's finished his first Atrocity Tale, about the creation of the Consult.

thanx pal....any1 read the judging eye yet?

[Happy Ent]

thanx pal....any1 read the judging eye yet?

Welcome to the board. Yes, everybody in this thread has read Eye, many of us multiple times.

[Curethan]

Removing time isn't the point. The point is removing the notion of being only able to perceive time as a one-dimensional system where you are completely unaware of what comes afterwards. If you can perceive time as simply another basic dimension, one that things are at at a certain 4-dimensional spacetime point of view, nothing is broken - not even causality.

See, this last sentence describes 'now'. Adding the causal function simply means that your 'perception' has no contextual meaning because the events are fixed.

Like I am watching a home movie. Can I participate in the events of the movie? No. Although I was an actor within the movie, my actions in it were completely derived from the now that was (which is of itself an incomplete amalgamation of past events being compiled within their own future - hardly one dimensional). If I send an agent (the WLW, for instance) back in time it will alter the events of the movie and then you have your standard retarded sci-fi time travel paradox that completely violates causality (and logic).

Another way to put it is this: everything that has come before to us looks like a single line. We know exactly how things happened and when and where (or at least we have the ability to figure these things out). This is how everything looks to the God (and possibly the Gods). Causality exists - or more accurately existed but it's still history to the Gods. Where they enter the equation might be confusing to them but nothing is violated simply because they exist at the end of everything.

How can you not remove time if you have an existence after 'the end of everything'.

As I've said before, the God is a seperate idea from the gods. I'm down with capital G having a simultaneous omnipresence, that explains objective judgement quite well and its complete quiescience is constitent with logical interpretation. The idea that God experiences itself through creation and splinters of consiousness (humans, nonmen, gods etc) provides a detailed framework for Bakker's metaphysics.

[Borric]

And the “Gods” don’t see the Consult because?

They have no souls?

There alien and not part of the world and its structures?

But what of the Mangaecca?, they consist of human souls.

Why cant they see them?

[Calibandar]

I always thought the idea was not that the Hundred, whose emissary is The White Luck Warrior, couldn't see the Consult, but that they cannot see the No God, Mog Pharau.

And on a different note, anyone else read Bakker's recent blog posts and feels that you have no idea what idea he is talking about? I've rarely had such a big disconnect between an author's book writing and their blog/essays in terms of my own understanding and enjoyment of them. My disinterest in philosophy has much to do with that.

[Curethan]

I always thought the idea was not that the Hundred, whose emissary is The White Luck Warrior, couldn't see the Consult, but that they cannot see the No God, Mog Pharau.

Yes, I would make this distinction too. As an exception, the narindar states that Ajokli sees what the other gods do not, so it's clearly not simply a question of Mog's 'alien' nature.

And on a different note, anyone else read Bakker's recent blog posts and feels that you have no idea what idea he is talking about? I've rarely had such a big disconnect between an author's book writing and their blog/essays in terms of my own understanding and enjoyment of them. My disinterest in philosophy has much to do with that.

The last few blog posts have been rather narrowly focused. Kinda like GRRM's NFL posts on the not-a-blog. Maybe RSB should get a tagging system in too.

[Borric]

If they can see the consult, they know of there goal to reduce the planets population to a size where the gods can no longer function in the world.

At least that’s my understanding of the Consults goal.

To in effect, get rid of the gods, and there inevitable fate should they pass to the outside. That being damnation.

If the gods are aware of this goal, surely the Consult is more of a threat than the Aspect Emperor?. (or at least the same threat)

Which suggests to me the Consult can not be seen.

[Happy Ent]

If the gods are aware of this goal, surely the Consult is more of a threat than the Aspect Emperor?. (or at least the same threat)

But they are aware of the Aspect-Emperor not because he is a threat. They are aware of him because he leaves a mark on the Outside by virtue of being believed in.

[Sci-2]

I always thought the idea was not that the Hundred, whose emissary is The White Luck Warrior, couldn't see the Consult, but that they cannot see the No God, Mog Pharau.

And on a different note, anyone else read Bakker's recent blog posts and feels that you have no idea what idea he is talking about? I've rarely had such a big disconnect between an author's book writing and their blog/essays in terms of my own understanding and enjoyment of them. My disinterest in philosophy has much to do with that.

The point about the gods seeing the Consult is a good question - makes me (again) think the gods only exist as their worshipper's awareness across time. Can't recall if there is a good counter to that.

Honestly (and I've mentioned this in his comments) there seems to be a running theme of how the literati should appreciate fantasy/him. I find it tiresome, personally.

ETA: But I do like the stuff about Infinite Jest, need to read that book!

But they are aware of the Aspect-Emperor not because he is a threat. They are aware of him because he leaves a mark on the Outside by virtue of being believed in.

Now this is a great way of looking at things.

[The Winged Wolf Bran Stark]

I just want to jump in for a minute to say that I've started the series. Quite interesting so far. I think the only complaint I've had so far is that I wished I knew how to pronounce all the names.

[The Imp's Advocate]

There's a pronunciation guide in the appendix.