The Pita Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 How can you guys not remember Renly and Loras? They were like the best friends ever.I love you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm not stretching anything. The speeches at my wedding were not maudlin or drawn out, they had a point, emphasizing things that people feel but so often but do not say. If you're just filling air time with your wedding speeches then so be it, but i don't feel that my friends were, and as you don't know me or my friends its probably better if you don't make assumptions. I often spent time telling my one friend to stop drinking, but did not credit myself with the reason for him doing so. He obviously did. Apologies if I offended you. To be clear though, hyperbole is not the same as filling air time. "I quit drinking for myself, but I appreciate that Arthmail kept telling me it was the right thing to do as well" doesn't make as good of a wedding speech. (And to be super-clear, I'm not implying AT ALL that's what the truth is, just illustrating the hyperbole point.)My point about you stretching 'friendship' to the point of meaninglessness was in response to this comment: "Like i've said, i see Jon and Sam less as friends and more as dependents. Jon is a nice guy, and Sam needs a nice guy because he's a craven." You can say that about almost anyone in a fantasy series. For instance, Sam and Frodo, all alone in the wide-world outside of the Shire, on a crazy mission into the lion's den. Of course they would be dependents. *shrug* "[sam] is a nice guy, and [Frodo] needs a nice guy because he's [losing his battle of wills with the ring.]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pineapple Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Not really. It's blind adherence to faith. Its a holy war, not band of brothers. They're all willing to go off and die either because they fear Kellhus, or they are his bitch.Trolling, much? They didn't follow him out of fear.As Cnaiur once put it, 'They (The Dunyain) make us love!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I think this mostly has to do with the quote from Jurble up above. Most people want story over endless philosophy.What is story once you subtract philosophy?I mean, the protagonist/person we focus around, they care about doing something...but we have to cut off asking why that might be so and...what do we move onto? A series of physical activies like swinging across a river on a rope or climbing a cliff? But he might fall while climbing the cliff, why would he risk his life...wait, asking philosophical questions again!How do you tease story and philosophy apart? Beyond just affirmation of our beliefs (ie, 'good guys have a hard time but win out over evil' pastiche, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durckad Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Maybe if Bakker were a bit more subtle with his philosophic themes, they might go over a little better. I know I was getting tired of getting whacked in the face with his philosophy hammer in TTT and WLW. Just get to the alien rape and pendulous phalli already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 They didn't follow him out of fear.As Cnaiur once put it, 'They (The Dunyain) make us love!'I think it's more fear of the second Apocalypse and how its prevention is tied to the salvation Kellhus offers. As in, we fight for the world AND if you refuse me you are damned.ETA: Bakker mentioned the perspective of game engines being an interesting metaphor for certain visualization ideas, which got me thinking about Sorcerers essentially writing enough code to edit the Earwa program, but their scripts don't account for all the variables and so what's left is marked/stained.The Cish, instead of hacking the program, use the offered API of holistic realization, which gives you less tinkering options but is cleaner and thus bears no mark.Kellhus, as a Dunyain, perhaps has found a way to use the API without blinding himself - thus his discovery of fire watching turns on this. Perhaps Kellhus can apprehend the Earwa program code to the point where his code is indistinguishable from that of the highly skilled Author.ETA II: I actually suspect Kellhus will be damned but pave the way for someone down the line to rewrite the rules of damnation. So he simultaneously is both a Savior and one of the damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmail Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Trolling, much? They didn't follow him out of fear.As Cnaiur once put it, 'They (The Dunyain) make us love!'Are you actually accusing me of trolling?Take a look at the book again. Those that do not accept what Khellus wants are forced into it, which happens to Sorweel. He is not involved for any reasons having to do with friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 To refine what I said above - Kellhus is the ultimate hacker, the one whose mark will make him more damned than anyone else. However, he will hack the code so much that he'll leave an API for his followers to utilize in such a way as to escape damnation.The rules of this new faith won't disenchant the world but will make damnation/salvation more logical - as in more agreeable to our modern sensibilities. If he's lucky Kellhus might be able to erase his soul and escape damnation via oblivion.ETA: He needs the No God to begin to rise, to shut out the gods long enough for him to succeed at the ultimate hack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Imp's Advocate Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Sciborg, this isn't Neil Stephenson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 ;-PETA: I did just start Snow Crash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Imp's Advocate Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Oh man. Lots of stuff similar to what you just mentioned is relevant to the main plot of Snow Crash. You're in for a treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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