White Luck Warrior VII

[Spring Bass]

I always visualized Cnaiur as looking a lot like Conan from the Conan stories, although the Scylvendi in TTT are described as being "fair-skinned" as well as "dark-haired and blue-eyed".

[Grack21]

I still say they need to get H.R. Giger to do some Bakker fanart.

[Callan S.]

So I was thinking, what do the scenes between Kellhus and Proyas serve in TWW? Aside from giving us a viewpoint on Kellhus, obviously, why does Kellhus engage Proyas as he does, explain his reasoning as he does? He has no need to at this point, Proyas would obey unquestioningly. As far as we can tell, he does not engage Saubon like he does Proyas. The meetings, rather than enforcing Proyas' beliefs about Kellhus' divinity, could only serve to weaken them. So what is Kellhus' plan?

Double conditioning. The point where you can show the brainwash and the brainwashee percieves no...how to put it? Percieves nothing abnormal? Like getting him to the point he's directly programmable, there need be no works arounds, just direct access.

However, did you notice the bit where Kellhus mentions, IIRC, the question of whether Proyas would give up his family for him? But then Proyas suddenly thinks that's the sort of dealio ciphrang try to make and Kellhus, instantly detecting it of course, changes the subject. Did you think that was a blunt probe by Kellhus?

I guess it ties into how Kellhus is letting the three seas fall to war, to provide a sufficient apocalypse scenario (ie, nothing to go back to) for his army. They must be going to face some real sick shit in future.

[Callan S.]

If anyone's interested: http://i280.photobuc...nszorgzszsd.png

I think with skin spies you simply want to draw multiple hands, with the palms converging at the center, then put eyes in the palms and perhaps a mouth squeezed in the space where the palms meet.

[Seraphimal]

@ Sciborg: Kelmomas? lol, where? Thanks though, XD.

@ TWB: I first, briefly, envisioned the Scylvendi as being somewhat Asiatic (before I read the glossary and noticed the Xiuhanni, and read further into the TDTCB). After this changed, I actually basically envisioned Cnaiur as Conan. I never saw any explicit description of his facial hair so I somehow saw him as lacking facial hair. But when I got down to drawing the picture I thought the Scylvendi probably did have facial hair, being based off of Scythians and Sarmatians (I'm pretty sure the majority of which did not shave), and being the rival race of the Nansur, who are constantly shaving. The Scylvendi probably view bare-faces are effeminate.

@ Grack 21: FVCK YES! I'm a huge fan of H.R. Giger. If there is ever an encyclopedic book on Earwa, or a movie, I would definitely want Giger to design the entrails of the arc, and the peculiarities of the Inchoroi civilization and their weapon races. The sadistic union of man and machine and all of the sickeningly phallic imagery just work so perfectly for them. I was thinking of smacking some Gigeresque Inchoroi on the page but it's actually a lot harder to recreate the essence of Giger, the surrealism and beatific detail, than it might initially seem.

@ Callan: Sounds cool and definitely do-able.... I remember Bakker giving an intricate description of the cartilage remnants of a skin-spy skull in TJE (but haven't been able to find it). I think a part of the description involved some central orifice between eyes where the "phalanges" of the face lock into place, but dunno how it relates to eye sockets and the mouth. . . beneath the phalanges it's basically just raw flesh, right? And it would probably be smooth and inhuman, since it should lack any sense of skeletal structure. . . Ramble ramble.

Does anybody remember how in The Prince of Nothing trilogy, the Satyothi were described as having green eyes? Was that aesthetic detail lost in translation to The Aaspect Emperor trilogy?

I'm not sure if Kellhus was really trying to know if Proyas would sacrifice his children. Kellhus probably already knew the answer to that question, and what Proyas' response would be. Assuming he's still as all-perceptive as he's always been, regardless of his transcendent status to other Dunyain. Which kind of beggars the question why he would want to make Proyas feel so uncomfortable. Mostly everything Kellhus says is ridden with intent, purpose, and calculation. It's obviously conditioning, but why mess with Proyas' faith like that? Does doubt only make Proyas' faith stronger? Or is Kellhus actually nurturing a small sliver of dissent? Personally feel like it's the former, since virtually every little action of Kellhus further leashes people to his indomitable will.

Kellhus' treatment of the New Empire assumes its ultimate pointlessness in his universal goals. So I think it's likely that he doesn't intend to return from the Ancient North and resume ruling for rulership's sake, as Maithanet theorized (what is the 'purpose' in this? perhaps after conquering the world of men, Kellhus would rather be rid of their company?).

UNLESS Kellhus really is the No-God and political factionalism in the New Empire is just the environment he needs for his world-murdering return. lol, but I doubt that's going to happen.

[Callan S.]

Or is Kellhus actually nurturing a small sliver of dissent?

To maybe provoke it so as to be able to remove it in advance?

That seems practical. But I was hoping for something more epic. Maybe the TTT is just so powerful now it doesn't matter if Kellhus starts to act like a regular world born man to a degree and just confess to another man as world born confess to each other? Or maybe as he's supposed to have gone mad, occasionally becoming like a regular world born IS the madness seeping out? A bit like with that speach the nonman gave (sorry, I'm bad with names) where something else seemed to creep from the wreck of memories that was the nonman and speak as something else.?

[Grack21]

@ Grack 21: FVCK YES! I'm a huge fan of H.R. Giger. If there is ever an encyclopedic book on Earwa, or a movie, I would definitely want Giger to design the entrails of the arc, and the peculiarities of the Inchoroi civilization and their weapon races. The sadistic union of man and machine and all of the sickeningly phallic imagery just work so perfectly for them. I was thinking of smacking some Gigeresque Inchoroi on the page but it's actually a lot harder to recreate the essence of Giger, the surrealism and beatific detail, than it might initially seem.

Man I know. When I was watching Alien a few months back Bakker was all I could think about, particularity the alien ship. I mean, they're both about Giant Space Monsters that Rape Your Face. I can't think of skin spies without thinking of facehuggers either.

[lokisnow]

I kind of figured that the Kellhus scenes were just to keep him on screen for a bit. with Sorweel no longer having Kellhus time, there needs to be a POV that can give us some Kelltime, particularly the nonman scene and the firewatching nugget. So I figured it was more authorial convenience of who has eyes on Kellhus. Once he'd decided on Proyas, Bakker then worked in something appropriate to the character for Kellhus to say.

[themerchant]

:lol:

Now, now.  Remember when Kellhus gets tortured like crazy when he first arrives at the Steppe....perhaps it's some ruse.

I'm actually leafing through WLW right now, and here's a good line on Saccarees:

That's some Dunyain-esque shit right there.

He also "goads" the Volkati (sp?) dude "let me show you what you would have won" after shaming him a third time and also agreed to his plan which turned out to be crap, and at least one other person saw as crap but only really kept quiet cause of his dad and the fact the Mandate leader seemed to go for it.Also Look how hard it is for a half dunyain to master a metagnostic cant, 2 a day at most, he was the first guy to master them, unless there is a big difference in difficulty amongst metacants, the guy is pretty close to half dunyain in his abiity to work sorcery (very rough and vague mtric i know).I also think Akka has been sent to Ishual to meet up with serwe at some point and then travel back to the ordeal with the non-men in their chariots at Dalgulish (sp?) where Kellhus betrays them or something . He must go after the Tekne he'll be compelled to master it.

[Sci-2]

Now, now. Remember when Kellhus gets tortured like crazy when he first arrives at the Steppe....perhaps it's some ruse.

I'm actually leafing through WLW right now, and here's a good line on Saccarees:

That's some Dunyain-esque shit right there.

I feel like if Saccarees was Dunyain we'd have more information on his sudden arrival and ascension. Twenty years isn't a long time to climb through the ranks of the Quorum by my guess, though Saccarees might be an agent of Moe left over.

[Sci-2]

Wouldn't the Mandate find it remarkable that someone could master not just the Gnosis, but the Metagnosis, in twenty years? (I believe 20 years is the time between TTT and TJE?)

ETA: Wouldn't the introduction of Saraccees warranted some mention of this remarkable advancement?

[themerchant]

He's stated as the first person to succesfully recite a metagnostic cant. We don't know the relative difficulty of the 2nd inutterals say between the one he mastered and the one Serwe can only do twice a day (which when i think on it might be an excuse so they can travel slow and Sorweel could catch them and learn to hate and play his role properly.) so maybe him being able to recite one isn't as impressive as i previously thought.

From the book

"And the Mandate , the school of the aspect-emperor himself, under their famed Grandmaster, Apperens saccrees, the first schoolman to successfully recite one of the metagnostic cants."

p53 Canadian trade paperback i think its called. Chapter 2.

[Callan S.]

We don't know the relative difficulty of the 2nd inutterals say between the one he mastered and the one Serwe can only do twice a day (which when i think on it might be an excuse so they can travel slow and Sorweel could catch them and learn to hate and play his role properly.)

Or maybe it's just going back to good old fashioned D&D spell slots!

Her other spell is magic missile. Which she fires at the

...that comes before....

[jurble]

Sciborg gets Bakker to ... say things, I dunno.

Women are prisoners of reproduction of Earwa, the same they typically were in our prescientific past. The difference is that the ideologies our ancestors used to justify their institutional oppression had no basis in reality, whereas in Earwa, they do. Psatma was all about reproduction from the very beginning, simply because the prescriptive reproductive role of women is an ontological fact of the world, one personified in the Goddess Yatwer. Condemned to give, to be exploited – and taught that this is something they should celebrate (as women are many religious contexts today). Even worship.

So take Esmi: she climbs out of the box, takes lovers the way a man would, only to find herself trapped on the box’s outside, forced to watch herself as an object.

Now pair this with the allegorical role played by Kellhus in all this and the role that science (via the rationalization of values and technical innovations like birth control) plays in modern status of women… And you could cobble together a sense of the problems I’m mining.

But I’ve already said too much.

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/four-revelations/#comment-3625

I'm not sure whether he really said too much, since he's already said in other places that Kellhus represents modernity/science.

[Sci-2]

I'm still not sure if Bakker and I are thinking the same things about the concept of agency, but part of that is because I'm fumbling to properly express my issues with the books.

A Kalbear I am not sadly.

[Madness]

A few points:

- The Quorum of the Mandate doesn't exist anymore. Kellhus restructured their institution and installed a Grandmaster in the Quorum's place.

- Saccarees is the first Schoolman to successfully recite a Metagnostic Cant. The first. Doesn't this imply that there are a number of them? Even a few, among the Few should be over ten or twenty, no?

- If the Dunyain are visible to the reader during the story, I'll almost guarantee they are completely unidentifiable. I don't think there's any good reason on Bakker's part to give us that kind of information.

[Madness]

-Even if others have succeeded with a metagnostic cant, we only know of one other besides Saccarees, and that's a half-Dunyain daughter of Kellhus.

-We are given a pretty juicy line about how much Saccarees sounds like Kellhus in the way he speaks. Why use that line otherwise?

I think its pretty clear that Bakker omits information. Every new books seems to change our understanding and the entire context of the story preceding it. A world and story Bakker seems to have thoroughly worked out is happening behind the scenes of our readings, which he reveals as he feels necessary. One day, more of these Metagnostic sorcerers will just be appear as they've always been there behind the scenes.

Which, ironically, reduces candidates to only men and woman of the Mandate and Swayal.

Bakker likes fucking with readers? I can only assume that there are as many speculative dead ends in this tale as there are true threads of fictive revelation.

Btw, Saccarees and the entire School of Mandate have the Vokalati turn on them. We're never given numbers but my reading of it leans towards the Mandate and Vokalati being mostly destroyed. Certainly the Mandate have been reduced to the second most powerful School next to the Swayal Sisterhood.

[Sci-2]

Btw, Saccarees and the entire School of Mandate have the Vokalati turn on them. We're never given numbers but my reading of it leans towards the Mandate and Vokalati being mostly destroyed. Certainly the Mandate have been reduced to the second most powerful School next to the Swayal Sisterhood.

Whoah. Now I totally missed that, and that is interesting that the Swayal is now the greatest of Schools.

[jurble]

Does the Mandate really suffer that bad? The text say the Vokalati and the Mandate consume each other, but the actual individual fights are way in the Mandate's favor. Kellhus obviously knew the Vokalati grandmaster was resentful, and likely knew that he would turn on the Mandate, but he never replaced him. Therefore, he intends to cripple the strength of the Mandate before Golgotterath. By giving his daughter away, he takes the Swayal Sisterhood's most powerful sorceress away.

When the Mangaecca and the Quya take the field, the Great Ordeal is going to die. There's just no other option. Kellhus knows this. Against Sranc, Bashrag, Skin-spies, Ursranc, some Wracu possibly, the Mangaecca, Quya, and Aurang/Aurax, the Great Ordeal has nearly 0% chance.

But then I don't see Kellhus' purpose in the Ordeal. There's no reason for it, he could just as easily have waited back home while the No-God was resurrection. He clearly has a goal that requires Golgotterath.

Does he wish to purchase Golgotterath's allegiance by gifting them hundreds of thousands of souls? Then why did he kill Moe?

Unless he truly has gone insane in that he thinks the small infinitesimal chance that the Ordeal has, can somehow destroy Golgotterath.

[Seraphimal]

Damn, I hadn't considered it in that light, though what you said makes sense, Jurble. Though I always thought that the ultimate goal of destroying Golgotterath was nigh impossible, especially if the Cunoroi couldn't accomplish it. Even with Kellhus' metagnostic cants, it seemed like a long-shot.

And now that he's crippled his strongest schools. . .

I'm on my first reread of WLW, so I'm unsure on this. . .

But is Cleric/Incariol conclusively the Nonman King of Ishterebinth? Is there any chance of that memory/the history of his identity being little more than Erratic nonsense? Or is it conclusive, and Ishterebinth is firmly under Mandate control? Perhaps Serwa actually has some hidden ability which will at least momentarily cause the Nonmen of Ishterebinth to reconsider.

The thought of a bunch of Erratic Nonmen living together in one Mansion though is kind of strange. Especially if their King really did just leave and forgot entirely who he was. Is there really any leadership among a community of Erratics?

I still think Kellhus destroyed Ishual and is considering doing something with the few remaining Dunyain via which he'll triumph over humanity and the designs of the Consult, somehow. Unless Mimara arrives and changes everything with her Judging Eye (in the possibility that Kellhus hasn't already expected her/is incorporating her as a variable).