White Luck Warrior VII

[jurble]

If the series is predicated around determinism, i am doubly out. I have not been following the threads save for the last three pages that i've just finished reading, but the notion that things happen for a reason and so can never be altered smacks of cheap divine intervention, where the abilities of the invididual are subverted by the will of something greater. That every movement and action is set in stone. The notion of determinism is intellectually bankrupt.

You're confusing fatalism and determinism. There is no greater will. Nothing, not even the Gods are capable of free-will. And the books have been predicated around determinism from the first page... That's the whole idea of the Dunyain. They seek to break-free from Determinism.

[Sci-2]

I thought it the opposite? That a media filled with Xena's does not mean sexism is solved. Indeed, just how rotten we can be is effectively plastered over with Xena and forgotten? And becomes stronger for being forgotten.

Oh, I agree with him on the Xena point, as well as the danger of making a mystic enlightened woman who then shows the other women are to blamed for their own inability to get over themselves.

My point, which I hope to find in the morning has been somewhat considered, is that men will distort their depiction of women. It's the whole outsider gaze problem.

Though really my bigger issue at this point is the fact that the Bakkerverse, whom I thought of as generally more enlightened, have followed basically to the letter the expected response when one dares to voice they're bothered by the depiction of a group in some form of entertainment media.

It's pretty fucking disheartening.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

You're confusing fatalism and determinism. There is no greater will. Nothing, not even the Gods are capable of free-will. And the books have been predicated around determinism from the first page... That's the whole idea of the Dunyain. They seek to break-free from Determinism.

What was that quote about the Cants of Compulsion? That volition isn't the mover, but rather another thing to be moved

[lokisnow]

Though really my bigger issue at this point is the fact that the Bakkerverse, whom I thought of as generally more enlightened, have followed basically to the letter the expected response when one dares to voice they're bothered by the depiction of a group in some form of entertainment media.

It's pretty fucking disheartening.

Are you sure about that? We seem to be having a pretty robust debate. yes, we can go all Kellhus on the scenario and say that we are all shackled to programming and giving the expected response to a given stimulus. Is it possible that given your past experiences you are analyzing the current debate through those lenses and are interpreting the data to fit the responses you've been programmed by past experiences to pay attention to? From what darkness does your disappointment come? Men are forever weighing, judging, Father.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, aside from occasionally stupid people most of the conversations are fairly reasonable and interesting. I think at this point most folks have agreed that there is something to be said about his presentation in the books and that it's a totally acceptable thing that some can't get over it, and some can. Or that there are flaws. Or that some of the characterizations aren't great, or that Bakker often tells but doesn't show as much as he should. There's little disagreement amongst that stuff, and a lot of the discussions about both what is inside the book (like the nature of damnation, for instance) and what it implies outside (like neuroscience or the role of feminism) have been mostly noncombative, and when they've been combative most of that's been at me.

[themerchant]

Q: What is with "Death came swirling down"?

A: I wanted to give a shout out to my main man Homer. Also, I tend to write most of this on the toilet. :)

I'm not into the antagonism that creeps into folk when discussing Bakker and woman (just wading through the last few pages) so i'm glad this line was here made me laugh, anyway back on with the rest of the thread.

[Sci-2]

Oh, I don't think I'm a martyr, and yeah having to see this a lot and go through these predictable responses makes me cranky. Sleep does a mind good, yeah it isn't as bad as all that but -

I just think it is sad but interesting that the classic lines/tactics used against women (and really any minority) came up so quickly. Getting told I should go watch Disney movies was, to me, pretty asinine though given the way people have approached Bakker in the past I understand it. If I was a woman, maybe not so much - my sister, for example, would have kicked the shit out of him.

I definitely agree there are enough people having a good debate and discussing the issues.

The major thing I wanted Scott to understand was that it isn't about winning a prize.

ETA: the word "tactics", disney movies.

[Arthmail]

Perhaps i missed something, but i believe i did not mistake fatalism and determinism.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

If the series is predicated around determinism, i am doubly out. I have not been following the threads save for the last three pages that i've just finished reading, but the notion that things happen for a reason and so can never be altered smacks of cheap divine intervention, where the abilities of the invididual are subverted by the will of something greater. That every movement and action is set in stone. The notion of determinism is intellectually bankrupt.

I thought the the Judging Eye was the best of the books, as Bakker moved away from his preaching and went into telling a good tale. The White Luck Warrior was a decline in quality, in my opinion. Besides, the characters in his book are an endless parade of perverts and weaklings, none of whom have any qualities that i admire beyond the most casual inspection, and it is only a testament to the world that Bakker has created that i've read as far as i have.

Determinism does not mean that things happen for a reason. In fact, most forms of determinism would argue the opposite.

[jurble]

Perhaps i missed something, but i believe i did not mistake fatalism and determinism.

, but the notion that things happen for a reason and so can never be altered smacks of cheap divine intervention, where the abilities of the invididual are subverted by the will of something greater. That every movement and action is set in stone.

That is fatalism. Determinism is everything is set in stone because of physical law. Not because someone wants it, or because of fate. But that even humans are bound by physical law just as a dropped rock is.

As Stephen Hawking says, from Wikipedia

^{a b} Grand Design (2010), page 32: "the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets...so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion",

[Happy Ent]

New version of the story up at Bakker’s blog.

[Seraphimal]

I asked RSB: "was Cinial’jin alone in his response to Cu’jara Cinmoi’s ascension to immortality? If he disliked the arrogance and ‘madness made religion’, what eventually compelled him to opt for the Inchoroi’s gift of immortality? Or was the transmission to other Nonmen actually done in a more insidious way, without their entire consent (which seems plausible)."

And Bakker says that there are apparently some nice tidbits on this in TUC.

So now I'm leaning towards the idea that a only few Nonmen eagerly clamored for immortality, while the Inchoroi finished off the rest by fucking with the water supply or something to that effect.

What do you guys think? To what degree would the offended Nonmen have resisted immortality?

[Sci-2]

That's a good point - I've always wondered about that as well, that the entire race rushed to immortality, into the arms of their alien enemy, and thereby destroyed themselves. What you're saying makes a lot of sense.

[Happy Ent]

I asked RSB: "was Cinial’jin alone in his response to Cu’jara Cinmoi’s ascension to immortality?

Could you spell this out for me? What is Cinial’jin’s response to Cu’jara Cinmoi’s ascension to immortality?

[Kalbear]

I think that there was a fairly large chunk of time when the Inchoroi weren't the enemies of the nonmen. That they were trusted servitors and doctors. That was the implication I got - that it wasn't just a quick reversal when Ninjanjin came around with them, it took years but they embedded themselves in the lives of the nonmen and the nonmen were totally cool with it.

[jurble]

A Nonman named Rama now? Does that make the Inchoroi Rakshasa?

I was just wondering about something though unrelated:

How does the Consult make Skin-spies?

Do they have artificial wombs? Or do they implant embryos into women/female sranc?

[Calibandar]

A Nonman named Rama now?

Pretty cool that.

Par’sigiccas and Tinnirin are new names, not mentioned in previous books I think.

Trisk

what was a typical lifespan before this? We are told that CC was feeling death knocking on his door when he made this decision

I thought this question has been asked at Three Seas once, and I think it's something like 300 years.

Also, can men see age in Nonmen?

I don't think so, their faces have been described as inhumanly beautiful ( like the Sranc) and ageless.

[Sci-2]

I thought the Rama name was interesting to, I think it fits. There does seem to be a sense of this even in the Mahabharata, that the people in Rama's time were so much more than the people in the time of the Mahabharata.

I'm not if I'm correct on this, but my understanding of the facet of Hinduism that links the two works (again, my understanding is there are many divergent variations of the faith) is that there are successive ages, each less than the next, until the modern age.

Though this implies humans devolved from Nonmen, which I don't believe to be the case. I do wonder about evolution in Earwa, and what evolutionary tracks separate humans and Nonmen.

[lokisnow]

I think that there was a fairly large chunk of time when the Inchoroi weren't the enemies of the nonmen. That they were trusted servitors and doctors. That was the implication I got - that it wasn't just a quick reversal when Ninjanjin came around with them, it took years but they embedded themselves in the lives of the nonmen and the nonmen were totally cool with it.

I'd add that I suspect the conversation between the wight and cleric that refers to "we loved them" and "they betrayed" refers to the inchoroi embedded with the nonmen, not to humans/halaroi. The gift of the inchoroi is about as double edged as the serpants gift of the fruit from the tree of knowledge.

[Calibandar]

Papa hates that he is my image,” she says, laughing, squinting as if about to sneeze at the sunlight. How could… How could

So why would he hate that she is his image? I guess if she's not his at all, that would be poignant. And it ties into the line about his wife's wayward desire, which is retained in this second draft. And then, these two quotes are clearly connected, but how:

And he stood in the blackness, the eternal dank that ruled the guttural foundations of Siol, his hand upon the neck and shoulder of his daughter, Aisralu, who even now clutched her belly, her womb, groaning against her headstrong pride, whispering, Please… Father… Please… You… Must… again and again, searching for his eyes, her face a summit, a beauty he had worshipped, bent into a pageant of strangers by anguish.

The above refers to his daughter, but the below is said by his wife

That is the sole curse of the Ishroi, she hissed. To only hope they had fathered their sons!"

So, my conclusion, Nonmen women could bear children by human men , but no longer by males of their species.

Then, quotes from Skafra which bemuse me:

All great things, croaked the saurian maw, are round......Reptilian passion bloomed across its crest, so the Wracu seemed skinned in flame. Thou shalt tip over the edge of thine world.