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White Luck Warrior VII


Curethan

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I think the only complaint I've had so far is that I wished I knew how to pronounce all the names.

Bakker largely uses phonetic spelling, so once you figure out what a dieresis is (i.e., the difference between earwax and Eärwa), most pronunciations are clear. (Tolkien used the same conventions: Eärendil. So if you grok Tolkien, you’ll grok Bakker.) Only surprises are the silent K in Cnaiür, but that’s made explicit in the appendix.

If you have specific questions, we’re happy to help.

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If I send an agent (the WLW, for instance) back in time it will alter the events of the movie and then you have your standard retarded sci-fi time travel paradox that completely violates causality (and logic).

That's not entirely fair. If I make a program that make a little world procedurally (ie, via a causality) and then look at the timeline of that world in its entirety, I can just alter the prior events of the 'movie', because causality is a lie in my little programmed world.

I get what you mean like in something like doctor who where he rescues a character just out of the blue who then rescues him and THEN latter you see him hopping back to rescue the first characte, but what about the first time? In that case it doesn't make sense, I totally agree. But there is editing of events outside of a timeline, when the timeline is simply a facade (atleast to the editor). Granted, if the gods have such editing, couldn't they just edit Kellhus out entirely? It'd be interesting if they only really knew of him once the belief came up, and as soon as the belief comes up he becomes outside of the capacity to edit. He's sort of washed in the same juice the gods are, that leaves them outside of the worlds causality (though they may have their own causality that is seperate from the worlds, as my programs world would be).

Okay, that was a big conjecture, I'll grant...

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And on a different note, anyone else read Bakker's recent blog posts and feels that you have no idea what idea he is talking about? I've rarely had such a big disconnect between an author's book writing and their blog/essays in terms of my own understanding and enjoyment of them.

This means Scott has many more books in him to write! Huzzah!

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But they are aware of the Aspect-Emperor not because he is a threat. They are aware of him because he leaves a mark on the Outside by virtue of being believed in.

Hmm, that’s an interesting way of looking at it.

It does limit the Gods however, they cant see thousands of screaming Sranc through the eyes of there believers, they cant communicate with there deceased followers in the outside when they die?

They have no idea (except Ajokli) there under attack by the consult decimating the population, and there followers.

As they did in the first apocalypse.

There not very God like now are they.

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Callan, here is the problem. The gods wish to change events to their favour - therefore they are part of those events and so the timeline cannot be a fiction to them. You could edit or rewrite these books to your liking (even write yourself in as Callan, god of retconning) but what is the point - you simply have a different book with some character named Callan and it does not alter the objective reality of the story's actual course of events (i.e. what everyone else subjectively experiences).

Borric, I think the gods are only concerned with souls as they relate to the gods. And their differing portfolios suggest they mainly pay attention to certain spiritual meanings. Gilgaol, for example, would pay attention to the human warriors fighting the sranc only insofar as their bloodlust and battle fervor is concerned and not even pay attention to the unsouled things they are fighting. I imagine them pervceiving a vast cloud of souls buzzing about throwing off meaning and emotional and spiritual 'flavours' of experience and belief; homing in on the ones that are most 'attractive' rather than percieving reality as it is for living creatures. If that makes sense.

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The way I figure causality in the outside is that it works in accordance with the whims of the gods. It's not that they see a chain of events and act to alter it. It's that the watching and acting are a simultaneous process. Their will is always superimposed on their scrutiny. Like pressing their nose up against the glass of reality. Or making a kink in the pattern, to borrow from another epic fantasist.

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I’m dyslectic and find things like that really hard.

That explains it, then. Must be really difficult with those English homophones.

(For somebody like me, who gets most of his English in written form, the situation is reversed. “Their”, “they’re”, and “there” are miles apart, and the substitution is very difficult. Strange how these subtle difficulties add up, when combined.)

It’s not a big deal.

After all, what is orthography but a manifestation of what has come before? Invisible shackles that bind us to the yoke. Truth shines. (Nods sagely.)

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But they are aware of the Aspect-Emperor not because he is a threat. They are aware of him because he leaves a mark on the Outside by virtue of being believed in.
Except that's wrong, and we are pretty sure we know it's wrong. People believing in anything has yet to be shown to have any affect anywhere on anything. The Gods aren't powered by belief; from what we can gather they're powered by souls who are more easily digestable thanks to their belief.

You're stating that the Outside has been changed because people believe in Kellhus. How? Kellhus isn't in the Outside; there's no God-Kelllhus there to take that belief. There's no entity to mold the Outside using Kellhus' views. This is just a rehashing of the old notion that more belief == more change in the Outside and thus can change who is damned and who is saved, which we know from the author to be fundamentally wrong.

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I can understand mixing up their and there, but they're? There's a y in it!

Very basic symptom of dyslexia. In fact, this page [http://www.bltt.org/homophones.htm] gives it as a first example. Only my unfamiliarity with English as a spoken language made me miss that; I simply don’t view these three words as homophones.

You “not understanding” it is just an example of how much we’re all victims to our own cognitive preconditions. My empathy modules tell me that everything I find easy must be easy for everybody else as well. And vice versa: I have very bad face recognition skills, and marvel at the ease other people have with that. I simply don’t get it, at no great fault of my own. (So I put in more effort, which helps a bit.)

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Also, on the Consult and the Gods: it's not that the Gods can't see the Consult - it's that they can't see the No-God. Probably to do with the notion that the No-God cannot be seen and breaks the cycle of watcher and watched. They can probably even see the effects of the No-God but not the actual thing itself.

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Also, on the Consult and the Gods: it's not that the Gods can't see the Consult - it's that they can't see the No-God. Probably to do with the notion that the No-God cannot be seen and breaks the cycle of watcher and watched. They can probably even see the effects of the No-God but not the actual thing itself.

If the Gods can see the Consult, why have they not done anything to stop them since there arrival?. They have had what?, five thousand years?.

Do they not consider the Consults ultimate plan a threat?.

If i understand it right, the Consult are a huge threat to the gods, and will in effect deny them access to the world, should they succeed.

If they can send out assassins, as we are lead to believe with the white luck warrior. They are able to take direct action.

It does not add up for me, if they can take action, why have they not against the Consult.

Therefore the Gods cannot see the Consult?

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Stumbled upon this interview with Scott from July 2011.

Probably old news to many of you, but it was a new find for me.

Quite a revelation regarding the Tusk.

How do you deal with spoilers on this forum?, I’m reluctant to talk about

The content until i know the rules, so ill just post the link instead.

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

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You're in the spoiler thread for this series, Borric. Pretty much anything goes here, as we are discussing the latest book and interviews within the Second Apocalypse. It's why we encourage individuals like Lion of Valyria who've not read the entire series to avoid the thread entire. However, it's appreciated if you spoiler tag comparisons involving spoilers from other series or novels.

Btw, welcome Borric. I've enjoyed the nature of your perspective.

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You can talk about that here, we've already discussed it when it came out. As you say, some nice revelations.

If the Gods can see the Consult, why have they not done anything to stop them since there arrival?. They have had what?, five thousand years?.

As far as I know this still a mystery that we are struggling with, the inaction of the Gods towards the Consult itself.

On another note, about Kellhus, I think we have been shown what he really is. I still think Bakker is playing him straight, he is like The God in small.Like a very small russian doll that fits perfectly within the greater russian doll that is The God. An example referring to Kellhus specifically like this has been used, in TTT I think, someone else may recall the scene I am talking about.

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I've always thought the gods aren't bothered because, before the Inchies teamed up with the other school (I don't think i can spell it from memory, maenagecca or something) and formed the consult, there was nothing the Ichies could do to halt their damnation. They were killing everyone in other planets and it was ineffective. Perhaps the gods were aware of this and saw the futility of it. The one thing that changes that is the one thing they cannot see, The No God. So therefore they're just watching the Inchies kill everything again thinking, well the defintion of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Oblivious to the fact there is something there that does make it a different technique.

I like the fact that Kellhus has "slipped" (well maybe) by agreeing that the Non-Men are damned for being false, when we now know it was the Inchies who engineered that. To be fair though it's really hard to think of Kellhus slipping up.

I do think he planned everything happening back in Mommen though. Esme herself thinks how Kellhus must know how she acts, and then little kel is conversing in his head with Sami about the stranger they see in everyone eyes he sees, wondering about it and Sami prompts him by saying something along the lines of "like he's trapped in a room", straight after this he goes and sees his brother which then sets up the whole Maithanet thread.

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Callan, here is the problem. The gods wish to change events to their favour - therefore they are part of those events and so the timeline cannot be a fiction to them.

I often write programs who's events are not what I would want on the first run. I edit them to those I favour.

Perhaps Earwa, though it's entire history, has been run by the gods hundreds or thousands of times to it's conclusion, with modifications each time. And each time, to a perspective on that world, it would feel like it was just the one time.

There doesn't have to be a link between how you want things to turn out, and how things turn out. Indeed, that certainly sounds like the outside.

Themerchant:

I like the fact that Kellhus has "slipped" (well maybe) by agreeing that the Non-Men are damned for being false, when we now know it was the Inchies who engineered that.

I think they are eternity tortured because they worship the spaces between gods. Pretty much anything pisses of the Earwa gods, particularly things like worshiping things that, to such gods, don't exist. The gods don't perceive the gaps between gods.

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Of course the gods are mainly concerned only with beliefs and the perceptions of the souled creatures they are interested in. They have no physical existence, they can't see things like we do. Sorcery hinges on meaning. Belief and desire are the levers of action because they are the embodiment of meaning.

Nobody has believed in the consult for hundreds of years. How would the gods be aware of the consult when the only people who really believe in them are exactly the types of souls they don't care about. i.e. the mandati.

The gods don't have eyes, they only perceive Earwa through the meanings they embody. Actually parsing events must be both difficult and tiresome to them. Kellhus is absolutely fucking directly with them by 'stealing' the beliefs and convictions of their flocks. Enough to rouse them into taking direct action - and how do they do this... by manipulating belief and desire.

The consult do not operate like Kellhus, prefering to stay well out of sight. Their agents are souless and their machinations are disguised as if the gods war against each other (they wanted to instigate the holy war to destroy the cishies remember). They haven't just been hiding from the mandate, they have probably primarily been avoiding attracting the attention of the gods. Before Kellhus they had the run of the three seas and everyone thought they had long since just dried up and blown away.

The gods would simply assume that Kellhus is lying about the consult in the same way as the orthodox.

I imagine that Ajokli knows the truth because Kellhus went to the outside for a reason.

I'm actually exasperated as to how people think the gods would know about the consult. Its a conspiracy directed specifically against them.

eta:

Callan, those programs are re-written to achieve your objectives in the future. You aren't changing the past, you are altering their current state. The analogy you are attempting to present would result in you writing them perfectly the first time. The gods are part of the program. You aren't.

Have you written a program that modifies itself? A neural network, for instance. If so, try and apply that logic - the methods that you use in such a program must act within the constraints of the state progression of the program. Change the constraints of the problem an agent must deal with and you create a new object - you don't change the object you created in the past or its actions - you are simply in a new system.

The idea of 'now', history and projections of possible future states are essential to intelligent systems.

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