White Luck Warrior VII

[Curethan]

I'll attempt to add a new topic of discussion.

I've been thinking about the gnosis and how it often seems to be a method of imposing mathematical geometry onto reality.

Extending that, I suggest that anagogic sorcery is analogous to imposing literal meanings via basic logic, syllogistic propositions and perhaps allegorical rhetoric.

In the case of the Psukhe, I'm speculating a form of imposing or translating extra dynamics of meaning from within the complex polynomials of the Onta. Thus no Mark.

Aporetic sorcery focuses on negating imposed literals. Its basicly imposing proof of unstatisfiables. Not sure why this would affect the Psukhe users - they perhaps carry an imperceptable Mark.

Been pretty focused on set theory and first order logic lately, sorry if I'm being too math-jargon-guy. Plus, only 3 hours sleep and I just finished a 2-10am shift.

I suspect that topos is derived from this rather than this, any of you brains grok category theory?

[Kalbear]

I don't think the Consult being secretive really matters to the gods one way or another, nor do I think that was the question anyway. It's more - why haven't the Gods interceded when the nonmen fought the Consult? Why didn't they intercede during the apocalypse?

And I think that the answer is that they did. They just can't do a ton of explicit things.

Heck, one might argue that Kellhus IS an interference against the Consult for the Gods. If you want to say that they're all-seeing and all knowing who is to say that he isn't part of it? I kinda think that sucks personally; I like the Gods being alien, fucked up and uncaring about humanity most of the time, and I like human agency being more important than divine agency. But it could be the case.

On math and not: sorry, Curethan, you're wrong. The Psukhe is entirely emotionally driven, an irrational rememberance of the song of God. The more emotion you can put into it the more power it has. No mathematical issue here.

The folks who have the most mathematical meaning are the ones who are most marked - the Consult, the Mandate and the nonmen. They appear to be the most wrong according to the means of God, probably because it is so decidedly artificial compared. In any case, it's not just geometric principles for the Gnosis.

The anagnosis is basically how you described - a literal meaning based on an analogy. But that's clear.

Really, all three come pretty much directly from philosophy. Between that and Bakker's poor math abilities I don't think it's too hard to figure out what they're supposed to be.

[Curethan]

Kal, if emotion is quantifiable, why can't it be handled mathematicaly? Isn't that what Kellhus' manipulations and the probability trance are all about - quantifying belief and desire and then applying mathematical principles?

It's just the the cishies don't, or can't, realise what they are explicitly doing. Which is enhancing the resolution of part of God's own mandlebrot set. Or perhaps influencing one of the variables... like belief!

Either way, it works without imposing a structure that contradicts the Onta.

Neither am I suggesting that Bakker explicitly designed the systems this way - they have been derived and intuitively rendered in a manner that allows for consistent description and deep analysis. Which is the reason I enjoy such thought provoking reading material.

If you have a better explanation, by all means share it.

New crackpot - Ajokli is Seswatha!

eta;

I neglected to add my initial reason for defining the forms of sorcery in terms of mathematics. And that is, that complex polynomial equations are the only way of rendering reality. You don't see euclidian geometry in nature.

A topos is an incredibly good example of a situation where a certain quantity of a certain emotion renders miraculous sorcery-like changes in the real world without leaving the Mark.

[themerchant]

It's non-cognitive. Maths relies on a base understanding of the "rules" of it. So I don't know if they are compatible.

[themerchant]

Do we know if the gods were able to manifest or observe all the other worlds that the Inchies visited?

Is it this world that is special or Earwa anyway? I suspect they could collect souls from other worlds after all how would the Inchies know they were damned if it was not a literally universal problem. Maybe the GOD has tried to manifest on each planet the Inchies invaded and the "avatar" that rises to fight them gets killed and ends up as an agency split from the GOD? That way Ajokli could be the latest one and as Sewastha is only one who knows about the No-God cause seen him in the objective world while alive.

Mega crack-pot i know.

[Callan S.]

Callan, those programs are re-written to achieve your objectives in the future. You aren't changing the past, you are altering their current state.

Scott works on his rough drafts all the time, adding to them - is he changing the fictional past of Earwa when he does? Or every time he adds to the draft, is he making a whole new book? If you want to say the latter, I could get that - I can't actually say that's incorrect, I'll grant. There's alot of truth to it.

The gods are part of the program.

I'm speculating they are no more part of a program than a programmer is part of a program.

I get if you want to say "Hey, that's possible, but I don't think Scott's shooting for that" I get that and you'd probably be right! But you seem to be saying it's impossible, the god has to be part of the program? Either way, I'd speculate the gods in the fiction aren't part of the program. Even though I'm likely gunna be wrong!

[Kalbear]

Kal, if emotion is quantifiable, why can't it be handled mathematicaly? Isn't that what Kellhus' manipulations and the probability trance are all about - quantifying belief and desire and then applying mathematical principles?

I think that's a gross misinterpretation of what things are.

First, I disagree that emotion is quantifiable. Or rather, it doesn't matter here for this argument anyway. Something with quantity does not mean that theorems will apply; it's much like saying because I can quantify the amount of apples I have I can somehow derive an apple from an apple tree using differential equations.

Second, Kellhus' manipulations are about understanding emotion and what sources it springs from. He understands the cause and effect of the human brain. He doesn't quantify belief and desire; he quantifies the chances of a human doing something based on their prior state. It's something of a subtle difference, but it's definitely there.

If you have a better explanation, by all means share it.

Kellhus explained it best: the Cish sing with God's voice. They attune themselves to the song of the world and sing along. Not well, and not perfectly, but at least in the same tune that it doesn't violate the onta and thus isn't 'rude' to reality. If you want to claim that God uses higher order tensor theory to define the world, so be it, but there's nothing that would indicate that and it isn't a necessary result, either. You're mistaking the tools for the object.

I neglected to add my initial reason for defining the forms of sorcery in terms of mathematics. And that is, that complex polynomial equations are the only way of rendering reality. You don't see euclidian geometry in nature.

A topos is an incredibly good example of a situation where a certain quantity of a certain emotion renders miraculous sorcery-like changes in the real world without leaving the Mark.

Uh no.

Complex polynomial equations are a pretty shitty way of rendering anything. If you're wanting to describe either quantum mechanics or general relativity they're not remotely useful in describing reality. I guess you can go numerical analysis and find a best-fit complex polynomial that will work, but that's not rendering anything - that's brute force solving a system that you can't figure out correctly. Furthermore, mathematics describes a lot of nature - but that doesn't mean that mathematics is being used. Lots of completely chaotic systems end up being mathematically described because of the rules they use (the game of Life is something of an example).

[Kalbear]

Sigh. Long answer got eaten by the Outside. Short answer is yes, almost certainly they're the most right and that makes sense; if you assume that religion is like science when gods are real, it stands to reason that the most recent religious theories are going to be the most correct as they have advanced on the existing facts.

I'm all aboard the 'gods are demons, god is immaterial' plane.

[Curethan]

Whatever, Kal. I was trying to start a discussion.

Again you start from the assumption that I must be flat out wrong and then procede to contradictions based on fine semantic distinctions that really have no impact on the ideas I was trying to discuss.

I get it - you disagree with everything I say. If I say the sky is blue, you will say; NO! It is azure!

I won't bother in future. I guess you can count that as a victory.

[Kalbear]

I didn't start from the assumption that you were wrong, Curethan. Sorry. But you were wrong. It's not a semantic distinction to say that Kellhus and the Dunyain quantify emotion - the point that Moe sucked hard at Cishies points that out completely. Should I ignore the holes in your logic to indicate how great it is that everything is rigidly mathematically defined?

I get you're into math right now, and that's awesome. I'll ask you another question in that vein, then: if it was all special math wackiness, does it matter? Can you infer anything from it? Can you project anything in the future books? For example, would you be able to create some kind of quantum consciousness that could solve complex polynomials instantly for all states, thus being able to be at all times and spaces at once? Because to me saying that it's all math is pretty much the same as saying it's all derived by how much of a dump they took that morning. It might be true, and it might even be interesting, but it's useless.

One last thing:

The idea of 'now', history and projections of possible future states are essential to intelligent systems.

Read Peter Watts' Blindsight some time. Intelligent systems do not rely on a now any more than they rely on a self. You're falling for a classic Bakkerism - because you can't figure out how it might work means it couldn't possibly work.

[Happy Ent]

[…], any of you brains grok category theory?

Yes, and please keep it out of this. I’ve made several professional decisions based on my disdain for category theory; I wouldn’t want it to pollute this part of my mind space. Certain boundaries are better not crossed; some corruption needs to be pushbacked.

[Borric]

The consult do not operate like Kellhus, prefering to stay well out of sight. Their agents are souless and their machinations are disguised as if the gods war against each other (they wanted to instigate the holy war to destroy the cishies remember). They haven't just been hiding from the mandate, they have probably primarily been avoiding attracting the attention of the gods. Before Kellhus they had the run of the three seas and everyone thought they had long since just dried up and blown away.

The gods would simply assume that Kellhus is lying about the consult in the same way as the orthodox.

I imagine that Ajokli knows the truth because Kellhus went to the outside for a reason.

I'm actually exasperated as to how people think the gods would know about the consult. Its a conspiracy directed specifically against them.

Thanks for that Curethan, its an explanation i’v been looking for. And one that rings true.

It does mean the gods are weak entities in my opinion, but that’s just my pre conceived ideas of what gods should be i guess.

It does not convince me that the whole premise is correct though. I still have a gut feeling that a lot of the recent supernatural occurrences are down to the Consult and not the gods.

But ill come back to that another day.

[generic]

But they are aware of the Aspect-Emperor not because he is a threat. They are aware of him because he leaves a mark on the Outside by virtue of being believed in.

The Gods aren't powered by belief; from what we can gather they're powered by souls who are more easily digestable thanks to their belief.

What is new in WLW is the circle of the watcher and the watched. Maybe the gods are miffed because everyone is now watching Kellus?

[The Imp's Advocate]

Nobody has believed in the consult for hundreds of years. How would the gods be aware of the consult when the only people who really believe in them are exactly the types of souls they don't care about. i.e. the mandati.

The gods don't have eyes, they only perceive Earwa through the meanings they embody. Actually parsing events must be both difficult and tiresome to them. Kellhus is absolutely fucking directly with them by 'stealing' the beliefs and convictions of their flocks. Enough to rouse them into taking direct action - and how do they do this... by manipulating belief and desire.

The consult do not operate like Kellhus, prefering to stay well out of sight. Their agents are souless and their machinations are disguised as if the gods war against each other (they wanted to instigate the holy war to destroy the cishies remember). They haven't just been hiding from the mandate, they have probably primarily been avoiding attracting the attention of the gods. Before Kellhus they had the run of the three seas and everyone thought they had long since just dried up and blown away.

The gods would simply assume that Kellhus is lying about the consult in the same way as the orthodox.

I imagine that Ajokli knows the truth because Kellhus went to the outside for a reason.

I'm actually exasperated as to how people think the gods would know about the consult. Its a conspiracy directed specifically against them.

This seems alright if you don't go into any details, but I don't believe it. What about Inrau? He saw the sinthese, became aware of the Consult, and seemed pretty into the cult of Onkis. And though Inrau may be a blasphemous sorceror, I doubt that not one believer ever caught a glimpse of the Consult.

The gods are blind to the No God and his works by the nature of the universe or whatever. The consult are just blasphemous souls, buoyed up by the Tekne and magic. Chances are that the Hundred ARE aware of the consult, but view Kellhus as the bigger threat, or have a longer game going against the consult that we aren't seeing.

[Callan S.]

Probably more of how they are aware of the consult. It probably comes up on their radar as just a bunch of magic using blasphemers and that's pretty much it. They don't think they have a blindside anyone could manouver into, so they are even more blind to anyone who manouvers into it.

[Borric]

Just a quick note.

I remember some debate about who exactly Kelmomas secret voice was.

Well, its defiantly his brother Sammi. It could not be more clear cut.

Take a look at page 502 of the WLW.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, let's just say we've talked about it and it's not like Kelmomas is a particularly reliable narrator.

[Pineapple]

Yeah, let's just say we've talked about it and it's not like Kelmomas is a particularly reliable narrator.

Agreed

[Calibandar]

Yeah, let's just say we've talked about it and it's not like Kelmomas is a particularly reliable narrator.

I haven't read every post in every thread since the release, could you elaborate on why it would not be Sammi?

[Kalbear]

It's not that it wouldn't be Sammi - it's just that it's less than 100% decided.

Sammi: possibly, but unlikely

Ajoki - possibly.

Kellhus - also a possibility

Consult - maybe

One of the other gods or God himself - unlikely

Something else? probable.