White Luck Warrior VII

[lokisnow]

Flesh Angels?

Why would that be Conphas? I thought it was obviously Moenghus, Kellhus' 'son'.

I figured the battle makes more sense if both the 'present' of the burning of the nonman and the past 'of Pir Pahal' are in the same place. The plains on which Pir Pahal fought is the site of a battle for the Great Ordeal. presumably a battlesite after Moenghus has returned with Ishterebinth nonmen, including this one.

I thought that the way his wife mocked him implied she slept around, so she was being haughty about the age old problem of men not knowing if a child is theirs or not. It also seemed possible/plausible that the daughter was pregnant by her father. is Incest as bad for cunoroi as it is for halaroi?

also, interesting that Cujara Cinmoi would have impiety celebrated as strength. fascinating to use impiety there.

Nice circularity towards the figurative blindness in the early part of chapter with Moe taking the nonman's eye literally in the latter part of the chapter. Also seems significant in terms of watcher and watched cycle. the stream of consciousness is also interesting related to that cycle, as is the way they seem to slip in and out of memories without discerning the memory to be any more or less real than the present, akin the to the white luck warrior's totally different perception of time. Much to ponder here.

And that chapter header aphorism seems to have much in it that could be unpacked.

[Spring Bass]

I thought there were two conflicts between the Inchoroi and the Nonmen: the first one where the Inchoroi fought the Nonmen and Sil died (at Cujara Cinmoi's hand in the battle on the Field of Pir-Pahal), and the second after the Womb Plague when they unleashed the Weapon Races. Is Mr. Erratic getting the battles all mixed up together? Or is the history wrong, and Sil actually slew Cujara Cinmoi in battle?

In any case, that was a good read. Nin'jan'jin got his revenge against Cujara Cinmoi for the latter's brutal opportunism in a horrifically epic fashion, and Achilles Ajax Ciogli died of bad luck. The latter is pretty damn badass, taking down bashrag left and right on top of a dead dragon.

[jurble]

Why would that be Conphas? I thought it was obviously Moenghus, Kellhus' 'son'.

What?

It's obviously Conphas. He talks about how his uncle is the Emperor. He talks about how his grandmother says he can't commit sins because he's so god damn perfect. And our narrator mentions he's as beautiful as a Nonman.

I thought there were two conflicts between the Inchoroi and the Nonmen: the first one where the Inchoroi fought the Nonmen and Sil died (at Cujara Cinmoi's hand in the battle on the Field of Pir-Pahal), and the second after the Womb Plague when they unleashed the Weapon Races. Is Mr. Erratic getting the battles all mixed up together? Or is the history wrong, and Sil actually slew Cujara Cinmoi in battle?

In any case, that was a good read. Nin'jan'jin got his revenge against Cujara Cinmoi for the latter's brutal opportunism in a horrifically epic fashion, and Achilles Ajax Ciogli died of bad luck. The latter is pretty damn badass, taking down bashrag left and right on top of a dead dragon.

Mention this in the comments, maybe Bakker will respond.

[Callan S.]

Took me a few rereads, but the Nonman dude is tossing his daughter off a cliff right? As she dies of the womb-plague. This can't be due to Erraticism, it hasn't been the passage of aeons yet. So why does he do it?

I haven't read it in detail (it's dense - paragraphs are for the weak!).

But what comes to mind is to make it his decision, not the decision of something else that she would fall this way. Non men are more epic - they don't scrape and horde what scraps they can like we do. Their lives hinge more upon their principles (alien as they are).

Maybe I'll get something else when I read it through more. I'm still kind of chewing forty times, so to speak, the first bits I read.

[Sci-2]

Thanks for the link - interesting story. I feel like the Nonman is mashing together multiple events from history, that only by causing suffering (and perhaps by suffering) can he remember anything, but the past comes back as a simultaneously lived present.

ETA: Not sure what the four revelations are supposed to be.

Conphas knew of the Non-Men?

Who killed who in the long ancient battles?

The nature of the Womb Plague?

Of course, the revelations might be four distinct points in time that come to the Non-man, or points in time + understanding of his own Erratic nature...

[Brennan]

Crap. I don't have book right now, but you're at least mostly right. The one where the weapons races are unleashed is, I'm pretty sure, also the one where Nin cuts down CC. I can't remember if CC kills Sil at this same one or if it's earlier.

In the timeline describing the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars, CC is definitely pointed out as being the one to strike down SIl and take the Heron Spear from him and this happened during the first battle they fault, the one on the fields of Pir-Pahal. The second battle was the one where they released the Scranc, Bashrag and Wracu and this is also the one where Ciogli broke Wutteat's neck and where Nin killed CC.

However, the nonman remembers seeing CC body strapped on Sil's shield but in the histories, it stated that when the nonmen got to his position all they found was a headless corpse and no mention is made of Sil. So something is most certainly up here, from what we know Sil was suppose to be dead or not at this battle, the Isauphiryes(?) sure doesnt mention him as being there.

Crackpot Time - Sil is still alive and dug up Wutteat and gave him the kiss of fire to bring him back so that they can relive the simpler days when they would just leave the Ark and go flying together.

[The Imp's Advocate]

Crackpot Time - Sil is still alive and dug up Wutteat and gave him the kiss of fire to bring him back so that they can relive the simpler days when they would just leave the Ark and go flying together.

Daaaaaaaw. But now I know it's not true, because Bakker never makes me feel warm inside.

[Callan S.]

Daaaaaaaw. But now I know it's not true, because Bakker never makes me feel warm inside.

This is the yard stick!

[Spring Bass]

Daaaaaaaw. But now I know it's not true, because Bakker never makes me feel warm inside.

I feel warm insid . . . wait, that's not my metabolism!

More seriously, the most fascinating aspect of it to me was that we got to see inside the head of a Nonman. A pity it's an obviously insane Nonman, since I'd love to compare his stream-of-consciousness with a non-insane Nonman. I can see how they got buried mentally by time - Mr. Erratic is almost drowning in his sea of memories.

[Happy Ent]

Consider this:

The little human girl, the one who had found him where he had hidden, another place forgotten, the girl who had been whipped by his father for stealing food, food for him,[…]

Is that correct? Should it be “whipped by her father” instead?

My interpretation is that the unnamed NonMan (let’s call him Fili’Cide) is hiding in a cave or something like that at the time of Ikurei Xerius III. A human child finds his hideout and starts bringing him food. Her father discovers the theft, whips her. Fili’Cide kills her at their next meeting, after hearing about her sacrifice for him. He’s caught and tormented at the command of the emperor’s nephew.

[Happy Ent]

Ah, unnamed Nonman is obviously called Cinial’jin. It says so in the title.

[Antonius Pius]

Is that correct? Should it be “whipped by her father” instead?

I don't think so. As I saw it, the girl had stolen food from the Nonman, and was whipped by the father of the person having the revelation. Perhaps she was a slave? The person having the revelation later strangles her, to remember her.

Overal, I found it confusing. I have no idea what the deal with the sister is. Or what exactly is going on. Is this the betrayal on Nin'Janjin?

The king that gets killed, is that the same one from The Judging Eye? The one who calls Cleric cousin?

[Sci-2]

Damn, Bakker said there's a continuity error in story regarding Sil, Cujara, and the Heron Spear. He did say it was a draft after all...

[jurble]

I don't think so. As I saw it, the girl had stolen food from the Nonman, and was whipped by the father of the person having the revelation. Perhaps she was a slave? The person having the revelation later strangles her, to remember her.

Overal, I found it confusing. I have no idea what the deal with the sister is. Or what exactly is going on. Is this the betrayal on Nin'Janjin?

The king that gets killed, is that the same one from The Judging Eye? The one who calls Cleric cousin?

The person having the revelation is thousands of year old. His father is long dead. The girl is just some girl he strangles so he can remember. I think it is an error of pronouns Bakker made in the writing.

The sister references are to the boy who sets him aflame. The strangled girl was his sister.

Nin'janjin is present in the flashback, but the flashback makes no sense in terms of the timeline as the Isuphiryas.

And no, Cujara'Cinmoi is not the Nonman King from TJE. That king gets killed by some humans.

[Antonius Pius]

The person having the revelation is thousands of year old. His father is long dead. The girl is just some girl he strangles so he can remember. I think it is an error of pronouns Bakker made in the writing.

The sister references are to the boy who sets him aflame. The strangled girl was his sister.

Thanks for clearing that up. Any idea what the bare palm on the cherished back (the daughter?) is supposed to mean? And what's with his daughter? Is that a flashback too?

Is there a point to the identity of the nameless Man?

Nin'janjin is present in the flashback, but the flashback makes no sense in terms of the timeline as the Isuphiryas.

I thought it might be, but it I wasn't clear about that.

And no, Cujara'Cinmoi is not the Nonman King from TJE. That king gets killed by some humans.

Right, from Akka's story about how the humans threw the Nonman out of the-mansion-whose-name-escapes-me-but-which-Akka-and-crew-travel-through-in-The-Judging-Eye.

[Happy Ent]

Thanks for clearing that up. Any idea what the bare palm on the cherished back (the daughter?) is supposed to mean? And what's with his daughter? Is that a flashback too?

He pushed his own daughter to her death. That’s all, as far as I can tell.

Is there a point to the identity of the nameless Man?

He’s Ikurei Conphas, last of the Nansur emperors. This is a big surprise. I wonder when this happened.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Must have been before the series. Conphas says that his grandmother is getting old. I get the impression that he was passing through, heard there was a lynch mob burning a nonman, and got curious.

[Spring Bass]

I would definitely check out the comments thread over at the blog. Some interesting stuff, with Bakker being quite active.

What struck me as interesting was that Bakker said he did want to gradually introduce inconsistencies into the Isuphriyas history, stopping short of anything inexplicable. I've always found it fascinating when fantasies actually do this, acknowledging that the historical records/oral stories inside the setting are unreliable and fragmentary. It makes a lot of sense, particularly when you compare it to the often fragmentary records we have of the Ancient World in real life (such as no written accounts from or on Rome dating to before the 3rd Century BCE, IIRC).

[generic]

The person having the revelation is thousands of year old. His father is long dead. The girl is just some girl he strangles so he can remember. I think it is an error of pronouns Bakker made in the writing.

I got the impression that he confuses the little girl with the daughter he killed.

[Happy Ent]

I got the impression that he confuses the little girl with the daughter he killed.

I would say that stronger. He remembers the daughter he killed because of the little girl. Killing the lovely little girl is the whole point. She fed him. Stole for him. Told him stories. Was whipped for him. And he repays her with death. Because that’s the only way he can remember.

It’s a betrayal, and in his death he remembers many other betrayals.

Just like Cleric would eventually kill Mim, because she begins to remind him of somebody he loved.

Fucked up, Nonmen.