White Luck Warrior VII

[Pineapple]

I would say that stronger. He remembers the daughter he killed because of the little girl. Killing the lovely little girl is the whole point. She fed him. Stole for him. Told him stories. Was whipped for him. And he repays her with death. Because that’s the only way he can remember.

It’s a betrayal, and in his death he remembers many other betrayals.

Just like Cleric would eventually kill Mim, because she begins to remind him of somebody he loved.

Fucked up, Nonmen.

That was a darn good analysis, IMO. Didn't think about that until you said it

[Kalbear]

Yeah, while I thought the weird multiple timelines were fairly odd it was very clear that he was killing the little girl who helped him so that he would ensure that he'd remember her being nice to him.

[Latan]

For some reason I am thinking that his daughter was killed for becoming pregnant by a human, and her words about fathering sons was meant to remind him that she was caught because the father was human instead of Cunuroi. And the human Cinmoi is making speak is the father of the baby, the human was went inside the Ark and started the wars. And the Nonmen may still be alive if Conphas did not have him killed.

[Brennan]

And she grew still in his arms, Aisarinqu, at once kindling light, and a stone, such a heavy stone, and he wept for holding her so punishing was her weight, his life strained unto ripping by her density, the gravity of her stationary heart, her mouth hung about emptiness, and he shrieked, for the bottomlessness, for the finality, for the treachery and the violence-to-come, and for the relief, the sobbing knowledge that her suffering had ended, that he now cradled oblivion in his arms.

His wife is dead here as well, but dead he kill her? Or did she die of the Womb Plague along with the others? This makes me think that he killed her:

That is the sole curse of the Ishroi, she hissed. To only hope they had fathered their sons! His eyes were pinched and pricked by the effluence of the encircling furnace–no longer his own. Blackness fell away from her face, and for a wondering instant he gazed upon her, beloved Aisarinqu. A second, shrieking revelation. The white spark of some faraway light refracted in her tears, so that her contrition seemed holy. Fire is a thing that eats. A wondering instant, before the wrath seized his fists anew.

The way I read it is that she confessed him that his son(s) are not his and he killed her, its the part about the wrath seizing his fists that makes me think so.

[Spring Bass]

What does that mean, the "sole curse of the Ishroi" to only "hope" that they fathered their sons? Is there some weirdness to Nonmen breeding practices that we don't know about? Now I'm really curious.

[beetwo]

Hello everyone!

First time poster : )

Just gotta say Bakker is the best author ive read so far. I have read all the books at aleast 10 times from cover to cover and select passages countless more. Ive heard somewhere that Bakker is referenced to as speculative fiction and i think thats right bakker uses slight clues, just a few lines of a book that are juicy so when momentous things occur like Kellhus facing the inchi in PON or Pfstama talking about Yatwer and Meppa talking about the outside, i read carefully and try to inference the whole thing together.

I noticed continual themes that are intertwined through the nouns( i hope that right) he uses, when said themes appear, eg. death came swirling down. and as i was flicking through WLW it occured to me that all the voices of beings not natural ie. wracu and ciphrang always speak in bold, i understand it might just be used to express the fact they are mighty but going by my theaory of related themes im inclined to believe that dragons in particular wutteat are bound ciphrangs or if not ciphrangs other enteties from the outside who could be mightier, in bodies of their(inchi) choosing. certain things through the discourse between GN and Wutteat got me thinking on this and they are , that hell sustains him and GN claims that he is a slave and wutteat says that not even the black heaven (singular i might note) cannot command him and finally murder is wutteats salvation.

other things ive been muling over...

dunyain = means truth, the monks who named themselves knew this, but what truth do they alone posses?? that they are not wholly human ie. the result of interracial breeding. but also i believe they used the nonman religion as a basis for their own beliefs because the dunyains teaching and belief system and terms used( primarily cleric talking and akkas talks). The first interacial children were born before the womb plague to women( important) and when born were so similar to nonmen they were accepted as nonmen. after the plague the men tried to revive the line on their concublines but the children born were to mannish and therefore not accepted.info can be found in cuno - inchi war TFT. when the dunyain found ishual they found the bastard prince who injects fresh blood into the dunyain pool and after generations i believe the blood coursing through kellhus is no longer human but closer to nonmen how can you otherwise explain just how much greater he is physically? even 2 thousand years wouldnt be enough to turn him almost super human before the gnosis.

Sorcery: practiced by siqu since time before man could talk or write. passed down through the blood of their children using concubines. What make this plausible to me, is the line from the tusk calling them unclean.... ppl irl called halfbloods unclean, and since the inchis gave men the tusk its even more plausible.

hmm thats enough for now i think, your thoughts?????

[The Imp's Advocate]

What does that mean, the "sole curse of the Ishroi" to only "hope" that they fathered their sons? Is there some weirdness to Nonmen breeding practices that we don't know about? Now I'm really curious.

Womb plague. I mean, their erraticism could be considered a curse as well, but that seems to be just a natural side effect of living as long as they do. The womb plague was secretly slipped into the immortality deal.

I think I remember something about breeding with humans to hopefully create new nonmen, which could relate to "hoping they fathered their sons." Someone will probably come along soon with a quote to clear everything up.

[Happy Ent]

Hi Bee2, and welcome to the board!

how can you otherwise explain just how much greater he is physically?

I’ve never had a problem with that. 2000 years is a lot of generations, we have no idea what selective breeding could accomplish. I do know that even today I walk the same earth as people who are able to do things that would be physically impossible for me (Terrence Tao, Haile Gebrselassie, both of whom might as well be a different species than I), and these people exist without deliberate selective breeding. Look instead at the difference between a Dalmatian and Pekingese.

The hard-to-swallow conceit for me is that the Dunyain have enough understanding of genetics, control a sufficiently large gene pool, and that selective breeding (rather than genetic manipulation) allows sufficient control over the process. Not that Kellhus is “unreachable” from human DNA.

[Happy Ent]

For some reason I am thinking that his daughter was killed for becoming pregnant by a human, and her words about fathering sons was meant to remind him that she was caught because the father was human instead of Cunuroi.

I think you’re confusing the daughter with the wife. Let me try to entangle this.

Cinial’jin is the point-of-view Nonman. He’s Ishroi (based on that his wife mocks him “That is the sole curse of the Ishroi” and “his Ishroi brothers” ) but not Quya (based on his recollection “and he cried out to the skies, to the boiling-robed Quya, who were there to save them–to save them!–not to flee” as well as his absence of magical defences when the humans apprehend him and no mention of Conphas’s Chorae.) He has fought at the Black Furnace Plain, witnessing Ciogli’s defeat of Wutteät. He may or may not have fought at Pir-Pahal; the current draft describes the Inchoroi king Sil in battle, who was killed at that occasion. But Bakker may change these details.

Aisralu is the daughter of Cinial’jin. He name opens the entire fragment, and I believe the last line “A bare palm against a cherished back–” is also a recollection or her. Cinial’jin kills her by pushing her into an abyss, it seems as if she is highly pregnant and in pain. “Aisralu, who even now clutched her belly, her womb, groaning against her headstrong pride, whispering, Please… Father… Please… You… Must… ”. We know the the Nonmen were riddled with the womb plague, which killed all Nonwomen. The text is consistent with an interpretation that Cinial’jin killed his daughter at her command, in particular the previous quote can be read as her pleading her father to kill her before the birth.

Aisarinqu is the wife of Cinial’jin. Their marriage is not happy, “Aisarinqu screams and Aisarinqu screams, again and again, not so much words as a storm of occasions, a piling of instants across an age, for theirs had not been a happy union”. Of particular interest is the following passage,

[…] for a wondering instant he gazed upon her, beloved Aisarinqu.[…] A wondering instant, before the wrath seized his fists anew.

I take this to mean he hit his wife in anger. Also,

And she grew still in his arms, Aisarinqu, at once kindling light, and a stone, such a heavy stone, and he wept for holding her so punishing was her weight, his life strained unto ripping by her density, the gravity of her stationary heart, her mouth hung about emptiness, and he shrieked, for the bottomlessness, for the finality, for the treachery and the violence-to-come, and for the relief, the sobbing knowledge that her suffering had ended, that he now cradled oblivion in his arms.

The first part I take to mean that he actually killed his wife with his fists. Uxoricide. Or Victarionism, if you want. I also think that object in the quoted paragraph shifts from Aisarinqu to Aisralu. “Her suffering had ended” refers to his daughter, not his wife. (The wife didn’t suffer. He beat her to death before the womb plague.) This is not a dramatic interpretation, the whole point of the text is that Cinial’jin is conflating his daughter, his wife, and the unnamed human child.

Unnamed human girl. She lives at the time of Ikurei Xerius III. She finds Cinial’jin, talks to him, steals food for him, is whipped for stealing. Cinial’jin loves her and kills her.

Unnamed human boy. The girl’s brother. He looks ilke her, she has told Cinial’jin that “He is my image.” The boy gets to start the fire for roasting Cinial’jin.

Ikurei Conphas, nephew and heir to the emperor. We know him from the novels.

Several famed Nonmen make appearances in his recollections.

Things I am unclear about: Do Conphas’s men overwhelm the people who burn Cinial’jin? He seems to be saved from burning because the fire is doused with water. Here it is:

He glimpsed armoured Men raising scabbarded swords, dropping them like clubs. Please… Father… A glimpse of water, like a silver coin wobbling beneath the lip of an upraised pail, and it was the most beautiful thing he had ever seen, a trophy scalped from the very sun.

[…]

Lights diminished, sputtering before kicked into smoke by shadow

Earlier, we get “As they stand milling, the Men, so clear in the open sunlight, the filth, the bestial hair, the imperfections of frame, the scarred and diseased skin, dark, so that their eyes seem afire beneath their brows.”

Now, we don’t quite know what is now and what isn’t, but here’s my reading:

The tribe of unnamed human girl is burning the Nonman. They are not armoured. (Filth, scarred and diseased skin.) The fire attracts the attention of a Kidruhil column led by the Conph. Armoured. The want to know what the hubbub is about, a brief struggle ensues, the fire is doused, Nonman is saved so that the C-man can have his (largely inconsequential) talk to him.

[Calibandar]

Great summary Ent, clarifies a lot. I agree that Conphas and his men douse the fire and then he takes custody of the Nonman. Are we take it that Conphas actually killed him you think?

[beetwo]

Hello there Ent,

kellhus being mightiest amongst men i can understand, but kellhus being mightiest amongst all, without nonman blood? that dosnt make sense to me : /

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Are we take it that Conphas actually killed him you think?

I assume so, but I didn't notice it stated explicitly (OTOH it sure is easy to miss in a text like this). Anyhow, if Conphas kept his pet Non-man, I suppose it we would hear something about it.

[Sci-2]

my theaory of related themes im inclined to believe that dragons in particular wutteat are bound ciphrangs or if not ciphrangs other enteties from the outside who could be mightier

Now this is interesting. Wutteat's true soul is gone, but a demon is bound to his frame and it thinks the thoughts it the corpse's brain and has te corpse's memories. It *thinks* it is Wutteat...

Also, HE, thanks for that summary. Part of me wonders why Conphas decided to torture (kill?) the Non-man? Because he's a douche? Because he realize it was an Erratic and thus useless as an Imperial asset? Would he have kept him alive if he thought the mages of his School could tease the Gnosis from him?

[jurble]

Wutteat is Wutteat...

There's no mystery here.

We don't even know whether dragons have souls. Wutteat has a soul, but Wutteat isn't a dragon. He's the template for dragons. He's the father of dragons. He just sorta hung around the Ark with the Inchoroi, I assume after he was heartwarmingly saved by Sil as a child during an Inchoroi invasion of his homeworld, or something. The Inchoroi didn't need to make dragons until they faced the Quya, at which point someone looked and Wutteat and said, "Yeah, let's make copies of him." They probably improved upon Wutteat as well with genetic engineering to produce the first dragons, Skafra and Skuthula were probably stronger than their Father.

Wutteat is still alive because he is damned-as-fuck. He is so incredibly damned, he is a walking Topos. Just like the Wight-in-the-Mountain, but whereas the Wight is haunting a mansion, Wutteat is haunting his own body.

[Seraphimal]

Hey. Long time Bakkerite and lurker here. . .

Unimportant side speculation: the Ishroi are homosexuals.

Dun dun duuuuun.

"That is the sole curse of the Ishroi, she hissed. To only hope they had fathered their sons!" I take this as Aisarinqu (Cinial'jin's wife) describing a common trend of infidelity among Ishroi wives (endemic warfare could've provided the wives with plenty of opportunities for copulation out of wedlock). Their marriage is also described as unhappy, unfulfilled, or something to that nature. This could be an isolated relationship incident, but in The Judging Eye, Akka mentions that the most likely story about the fall of Cil-Aujas includes the Meori chieftains and thanes "seducing" the Ishroi. (TJE p. 254, paperback). Which seems to imply that at least the particular caste of aristocratic-warrior Nonmen are more inclined to be attracted to males. This isn't too much of a leap, considering that this isn't altogether uncommon throughout history's coolest warrior cultures. Spartans and Samurai immediately come to mind.

Aisarinqu's response to this seems to suggest that Nonmen have a pretty Mannish outlook on marriage, the relationships between males and females, and paternity. Which actually would be something of a small surprise to me, since I'd expect their male-female interactions to be somewhat alien to that of the Halaroi.

Anyways, the biggest thing that struck me about this story on the first reading was Cinial'jin saying that Cu'jara Cinmoi's followers would "celebrate his impiety." Does anybody know by what religious sentiments Nonmen would describe "impiety"? Or is CC simply "impious" by the standards of Ishroi warrior-culture? From what we've seen so far, they seem to emphasize worship of the "in-between" or "oblivion" that humans fear. But I've never entirely grasped if this was just an Erratic sentiment, or a characteristic of Nonmen Mystery Cults, or a characteristic of a possible religion from their civilization before the Womb Plague. Any thoughts on this?

[Callan S.]

Part of me wonders why Conphas decided to torture (kill?) the Non-man? Because he's a douche? Because he realize it was an Erratic and thus useless as an Imperial asset? Would he have kept him alive if he thought the mages of his School could tease the Gnosis from him?

Because Conphas is immense. More so than the nonmen - the act of whimsically taking out the nonmans eye or killing him is evidence of immensity. Or perhaps immense is as immense does.

You have to get your meglomania on to feel Conphas. Plus a chaser of sociopathy.

[Callan S.]

What does that mean, the "sole curse of the Ishroi" to only "hope" that they fathered their sons? Is there some weirdness to Nonmen breeding practices that we don't know about? Now I'm really curious.

Uh, you've heard the phrase "Maternity is obvious, but paternity is always a matter of speculation"? It's a real life phrase.

[Callan S.]

Wutteat is still alive because he is damned-as-fuck. He is so incredibly damned, he is a walking Topos. Just like the Wight-in-the-Mountain, but whereas the Wight is haunting a mansion, Wutteat is haunting his own body.

Pretty much, seemingly. In WLW he's described as having all this dead flesh all over him - how does he still live with that, let alone a broken neck? I think it shows something about souls in the books, that if you keep jamming one into a body, unlike this world, that body keeps going. Broken neck or rotted flesh, regardless.

Zombie dragons! Roxxors!

[Spring Bass]

Uh, you've heard the phrase "Maternity is obvious, but paternity is always a matter of speculation"? It's a real life phrase.

I understand that - my question was why she referred to it as the "sole curse of the Ishroi". I'm leaning towards Seraphimal's explanation, although it could simply be that the Ishroi are constantly away from home in warfare.

[jurble]

Lol,

Nin’janjin leapt from the tumult, his spear poised high, running Cu’jara Cinmoi through, and a moan passed through the Host of Nine Mansions, the very earth seemed to stagger. The boy grimaced in terror, of him and of his revenge–maddened kin, clutching the torch in two small brown hands, lowering it like something that might break of its own weight. The Copper Tree of Siol staggered, then fell. The boy let slip the torch, which bounced and dropped into the heaped bracken. The Inchoroi screamed in mewling exaltation, raised an iron pole so that all could see the corpse of Cu’jara Cinmoi, the Hated, the Beloved, bound upon it.

Bakker already amended the scene. No more Nin'janjin riding Sil. He should have just changed it to Nin'janjin riding Aurax...