Callan S. Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I understand that - my question was why she referred to it as the "sole curse of the Ishroi". I'm leaning towards Seraphimal's explanation, although it could simply be that the Ishroi are constantly away from home in warfare.Fair enough - I just assumed that the nonmen being so awesome sauce with their long lives, their looks, power, perception, etc etc that seemingly the only curse they have is who fathered their children. Perhaps that was the final revelation of the passage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Bakker already amended the scene. No more Nin'janjin riding Sil. He should have just changed it to Nin'janjin riding Aurax...Did....anyone take a copy before the change? If not, now we have no way to remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The trauma of seeing Bakker make an error is enough to leave a memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I've not much to add to HE's wicked analysis but some thoughts.Bakker's hinted that there are a number of things he intended us to be able to take away from the Four Revelations of Cinial'jin, despite the loss of awesome imagery of Sil and the only perspective of the Heron Spear.I believe the title is actually intended literally. Cinial'jin is captured, somehow, by the little girl's people and set to burn the Nonman at the stake for his murder before Conphas and the Nansurians arrive to free him and seemingly toy and question him.- Does this suggest that wandering Erratics are so commonly encountered and killed in this manner in the Three-Seas?- What pointed, relevant questions could Conphas possibly have for a Nonman?During the course of this episode, he is reminded of four deaths in his family, in my opinion, the four revelations.His youngest son, Ensialas, who dies on the the Black Furnace Plain, Inniur-Shigogli, when the Nonman march on Min-Uroikas following the Womb-Plague and the Weapons Races are unleashed.Aisarinqu, his wife, who was seemingly disloyal to Cinial'jin, who Cinial'jin himself might have murdered for adultery.- We know nothing about Ishroi mating practices or if, before the womb plague, there were female Ishroi. In that case, they might have existed like Platonic soldiers, mating decided by eugenics.- However, if Ishroi had static partners than this suggests that Aisarinqu is the Ishroi wife seduced by Sirwitta, which was suggested earlier in this thread. The first instance of Cunoroi and Halaroi cross-breeding.Aisralu, his daughter, who the nameless girl Cinial'jin killed reminds him of. Aisralu, it seems, begged her father to murder her, rather than endure the pain of dying from the Womb-Plague, and he pushes her from an edge in the foundations of the Siolian Mansion.Finally, Migiras, his eldest son, who dies in an the overthrow of an unnamed Mansion where peach trees forever bloom out of season.- I've no real guesses on this location or timeframe in Earwa. I'm not even sure what Mansions Siol governed or which was overthrown. My only guess would be the Siege of Asargoi - wether this is a Mansion I've no idea - when Nihrimsul and Cil-Aujas revolt against Siol, following the battle of Pir Pahal.Just thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The trauma of seeing Bakker make an error is enough to leave a memory.It's not enough. We must cut a swazond.- Does this suggest that wandering Erratics are so commonly encountered and killed in this manner in the Three-Seas?I doubt they're common. Burning may have just been a "special" way of killing the "false man".- What pointed, relevant questions could Conphas possibly have for a Nonman?A lot, probably. Wouldn't you have questions if you had a millenia-old prisoner in your captivity who had experienced countless famous events from the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think he have decided with myself that Conphas does not kill Cinial’jin. The Noman is simply too much of an asset, and Conphas himself says that he’s curious. “Curious” is quite a statement from Conphas, who is otherwise constantly bored by everything and anything.5 Kellics say that Cinial’jin has been kept alive in the dungeons of the Andiamine Heights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Here’s my take on the four revelations:1. “he could see it”: he will remember the burning, it will not pass through him, it will weld him to who he had been.2. “a second, shrieking revelation”: fire is a thing that eats3. “another revelation”: agony is the root, the very truth of sensation4. “a final revelation”: I have no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I thought the four revelations were the four events he's (re)living through. The battle, killing his wife, killing his daughter and the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Well, I would simply argue from the simplest things Bakker might try and convey with a piece like this. Though, I like the Nerdanelish theory, HE, that Cinial'jin was kept alive in Imperial Dungeons. A key piece to understanding the Nonmen is how their memories work surviving the immortality of the Womb-Plague. Bakker's mentioned his understanding of associative memories. I think he's trying to convey some mechanisms.I interpreted the FR you mention, HE, more as Bakker communicating the truth of sensation, of Nonmen memory. If sensation, emotional or physical, was a gradient I'm sure most of us would agree that Agony is the most immediate. I think you also mentioned this, HE, that this suggests that Cinial'jin kills the little girl, not only because she reminds him of his daughter, but because his wishes to simply remember a little girl who was nice to him.Bakker also likes to hint about his understanding of how bound memories, layered together, form our sense of personality alone, our sense of self. The Nonmen live then without that, forever trapped within the temporal present, perhaps like Bakker's Blind Brain Hypothesis suggests, their only true anchors to any sense of self being the most traumatic experiences of their lives. So they create more memories, which give them a sense of self - Cleric's Becoming - welding themselves to a sense of self, of the selves they sometimes remember being, with the most agonizing instances they can imagine.Erractic, nes pas?Also, Wise Bass, I was more wondering how a bunch of townsfolk or tribesmen managed to actually overwhelm an Ishroi. Is that really a comparison to take away, the gap between Quya and Ishroi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hey. Long time Bakkerite and lurker here. . .Unimportant side speculation: the Ishroi are homosexuals...Anyways, the biggest thing that struck me about this story on the first reading was Cinial'jin saying that Cu'jara Cinmoi's followers would "celebrate his impiety." Does anybody know by what religious sentiments Nonmen would describe "impiety"? Or is CC simply "impious" by the standards of Ishroi warrior-culture? From what we've seen so far, they seem to emphasize worship of the "in-between" or "oblivion" that humans fear. But I've never entirely grasped if this was just an Erratic sentiment, or a characteristic of Nonmen Mystery Cults, or a characteristic of a possible religion from their civilization before the Womb Plague. Any thoughts on this?I think the Ishroi are bisexual.Non-men beliefs are kind of frustrating to tease out. We hear Cleric rambling in TJE about the darkness and ignorance, and Akka specifically notes this is divergent from his knowledge of Non-man faiths (I think he used the term "mystery cult" but don't have my book on me). However, we are never given any further information, that i can recall at least, about what those more common beliefs might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Also, Wise Bass, I was more wondering how a bunch of townsfolk or tribesmen managed to actually overwhelm an Ishroi. Is that really a comparison to take away, the gap between Quya and Ishroi?Even a good warrior is probably not a match for dozens of people, especially if he's also insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Ishroi are nobility. Quya are mages. Not all Nonmen are Ishroi. Not all Ishroi are Quya. But all Quya are Ishroi, I think. Nonman magical ability was highly hereditary compared to that in humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I actually believe the distinction is that Quya are hereditary and Ishroi are specifically the warrior or soldier class. A Quya can also be Ishroi but a Nonman who isn't born Quya probably can't become one. At least this was my understanding.Nil'giccas was both. Clearly, he is was devastating force to be reckoned with. Yet Cinial'jin, apparently, isn't even up to the task of mashing under fifty humans. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Maybe I'll find the exact quote later. On Three-Seas Bakker, I believe in one of White Lord's longer interrogations, revealed that the Quya are a hereditary caste. I guess this then begs the question of whether there were other Nonmen who practiced sorcery yet were not Quya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Cool atrocity tale. Came late to the party and do not have much to add. Except that the tale plus Bakker's comments definitely put the nail in the coffin of the theory that the Traveler from TJE beginning was a non-man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Even a good warrior is probably not a match for dozens of people, especially if he's also insane.Not to mention probably unarmed, starving and apathetic (Related to insane) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 […] the nail in the coffin of the theory that the Traveler from TJE beginning was a non-man.Explain.(Not that I ever believed Traveler was a !Man.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Not to mention probably unarmed, starving and apathetic (Related to insane)I also got the impression that he didn't bother to fight them. If he had, he might have died in battle after killing a couple humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Small side note: Scott's US publishers have put up their forthcoming books on Amazon until late August next year, and there is no sign of Unholy Consult. It's possible that they could still insert it a later date. Uk date still stands, but still no synopsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Are there any problems if you order the kindle version off of Amazon UK with an American address? I could just order the physical copy, but I like the e-books because it's easier to make notes and comments in them (I'm ultimately hoping to own the e-books and hard copies for all the SA books). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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