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Whataletdown

Completely disappointed, can't go on

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This is the best rage post I have ever read.

I actually agree with him that GRRM never deals out any 'satisfying' deaths for any of the 'bad' characters and constantly makes the Stark's suffer.

This thread should be bookmarked. Also if this post is genuine, this guy should really never read AFFC or ADWD. Like, ever. He might snap.

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I am still reading aSoS but I already know what will happen (I don't mind spoilers - well at least for aSoS)

and this post was too funny, I feel total reverse as the guy though, I love Martin for killing main characters anytime he wants without fear or remorse and no fear of forum trolls.

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When I got the "that" point in ASoS, I wanted to set the book on fire. My friend convinced me to keep reading though and although this book was emotionally traumatic, I really enjoyed the ending. I can't move on right not to AFoC because I think it was too much information shared in ASoS. ASos could have been two books. There was just so much happening all the time.

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Following the RW my respect for this whole story and its author (GRR-M quite fitting) sank to a low point. After some initial boredom I gradually came to like the complexity of characters and plot but at the end of book one I got increasingly frustrated. where's there balance of justice and injustice in this story?

The author makes us cringe by piling up terrible event after event. While there is the odd satisfaction of some justice, its one step forward immediately followed by three steps back. Yes, Cat prevents Brans murder, and yes, Bran does awake and eventually the cruel facts of his fall come to light - to achieve what? Nothing. I was hoping all the time of course that this will become public to prevent further evil and get those involved ostracised. Does any of that happen? 2000 pages further on, only a lot of more evil has met the suffering Starks. Cat captures a Lannister- Tyrion- great. Any retribution? No, he is set free. Tyrion stops the torment of Sansa and the cruel reign of Cersei/ Joffrey, only to see him smashed and replaced by his evil father. Three steps backward. This pattern continues through to ASOS, very enjoyable.

the cruelty and immense brutality of the scenes Seems out of proportion. Some scenes of Aryas and Sansas ordeal have the quality and intensity of WWII concentration camp tortures. Is that appropriate for a fantasy story? What does GRR-M want to achieve by this horrible descriptions? Is this his character? He seems to divulge in cruelty a bit too much. Robb and Catelyn killed brutally, a punch in the stomach of his readers, and a conscious one. Not enough, in the next chapter he adds insult to injury (with a glee, I assume) by describing decapitation of both Robb and his direwolf, wolf head sewn onto the human body. Wow, is this proportionate writing?

I have read many comments about this being "reality" and that one should not expect sweet endings and too much justice. If I want to read realpolitik I chose non-fiction historical stories to read. They have the benefit of enabling to learn and understand historical events and developments leading to our lives today - lack of justice and cruelty in a constructive way to make sense of our real world.

Whats this got to do in a fantasy story? seems like deceit to me. What do I take away from these books? So far almost purely negative emotions, feels like 10% boredeom, 30% relief and suspension and 60% anger and frustration. Readers describe being so frustrated that they get grumpy and anti-social for days or longer. Is this the outcome of a good story? Certainly in the eye of the beholder. I for my part definitely dont think so.

With a clear pattern established and maintained over 2000+ pages and 4 months od reading I do not expect a great turnaround or dea ex machina satisfaction until the very end. I suspect the one steo forward three step back pace will continue, with only minor and shortlived satisfaction against a background of ever rising frustration and anger.

Compared to eg LOTR this story is certainly more complex and real-life like, but it seems to downcast a lot of readers, who in the end (although I'm not there yet) may feel largely betrayed and frustrated. To me, these are not exactly indicators of a great story and great author

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While many (most?) fans will cite the fact that no character is safe as a big reason for why they enjoy ASoIaF over other fantasy, I tend to say that I read the series not because of this but in spite of this. I love so many other aspects of the story that I try to accept these aspects of the books as well, even though I do not enjoy them. I love the overall story, the historical events, the setting as such and so on. I do not love the brutal and unexpected deaths, not one bit. At the same time ... its part of the whole story, and it probably couldn't be done without them.

I don't look for perfect, happy endings in fantasy. My favourite series (yes, even above ASoIaF) is Guy Gavriel Kay's "The Fionavar Tapestry". Those books make me weep numerous times. But its a very different sort of emotion than the shock and numbness that ASoIaF tends to elicit. I prefer my heroic sacrifices to not be in vain and to come at important points at the end of a book so that the feelings are bittersweet rather than just bitter.

Realistic? No, perhaps not. But I don't read to relive the real world.

So, I get this sort of reaction. But I do think the series as a whole is worth putting up with the discomfort for. Of course, I have a very high degree of emotional investment with the *setting* as such, so it isn't just the story itself that matters to me.

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Following the RW my respect for this whole story and its author (GRR-M quite fitting) sank to a low point. After some initial boredom I gradually came to like the complexity of characters and plot but at the end of book one I got increasingly frustrated. where's there balance of justice and injustice in this story?

He was never shooting for a balancing act. That would just be predictable and boring, in my opinion.

The author makes us cringe by piling up terrible event after event. While there is the odd satisfaction of some justice, its one step forward immediately followed by three steps back. Yes, Cat prevents Brans murder, and yes, Bran does awake and eventually the cruel facts of his fall come to light - to achieve what? Nothing. I was hoping all the time of course that this will become public to prevent further evil and get those involved ostracised. Does any of that happen? 2000 pages further on, only a lot of more evil has met the suffering Starks. Cat captures a Lannister- Tyrion- great. Any retribution? No, he is set free. Tyrion stops the torment of Sansa and the cruel reign of Cersei/ Joffrey, only to see him smashed and replaced by his evil father. Three steps backward. This pattern continues through to ASOS, very enjoyable.

What was enjoyable, I think, was seeing how each of these characters rise to the occasion and deal with their certain situations. So while Tyrion was practically on top in ACoK, and then promptly cast down again, I found his ASoS arc a lot more compelling. Oh and "the wolves will come again," as Jojen says, so I don't think the Starks will always be at the bottom.

the cruelty and immense brutality of the scenes Seems out of proportion. Some scenes of Aryas and Sansas ordeal have the quality and intensity of WWII concentration camp tortures. Is that appropriate for a fantasy story? What does GRR-M want to achieve by this horrible descriptions? Is this his character? He seems to divulge in cruelty a bit too much. Robb and Catelyn killed brutally, a punch in the stomach of his readers, and a conscious one. Not enough, in the next chapter he adds insult to injury (with a glee, I assume) by describing decapitation of both Robb and his direwolf, wolf head sewn onto the human body. Wow, is this proportionate writing?

Appropriate? For this fantasy story? Yes. What does he achieve by these descriptions? That it's a tough and brutal world, not too unlike our own, where the usual predicatablity of typical plots is cast aside for someone more unpredictable and more realistic.

I have read many comments about this being "reality" and that one should not expect sweet endings and too much justice. If I want to read realpolitik I chose non-fiction historical stories to read. They have the benefit of enabling to learn and understand historical events and developments leading to our lives today - lack of justice and cruelty in a constructive way to make sense of our real world.

Whats this got to do in a fantasy story? seems like deceit to me. What do I take away from these books? So far almost purely negative emotions, feels like 10% boredeom, 30% relief and suspension and 60% anger and frustration. Readers describe being so frustrated that they get grumpy and anti-social for days or longer. Is this the outcome of a good story? Certainly in the eye of the beholder. I for my part definitely dont think so.

With a clear pattern established and maintained over 2000+ pages and 4 months od reading I do not expect a great turnaround or dea ex machina satisfaction until the very end. I suspect the one steo forward three step back pace will continue, with only minor and shortlived satisfaction against a background of ever rising frustration and anger.

Compared to eg LOTR this story is certainly more complex and real-life like, but it seems to downcast a lot of readers, who in the end (although I'm not there yet) may feel largely betrayed and frustrated. To me, these are not exactly indicators of a great story and great author

I think you're just reading the wrong series, to be honest. I felt angry, depressed, sad, and pissed off at a lot of events, but at the end of the book, it was all overcome by the feeling that I just read one of the greatest works in the genre. I actually think there was a whole lot more positive in the book (in terms of character arcs) than there were negatives.

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I have read many comments about this being "reality" and that one should not expect sweet endings and too much justice. If I want to read realpolitik I chose non-fiction historical stories to read.
Well then, you can stop reading the books. And never get close to anything written by Abercrombie, Bakker, KJ Parker, Erikson, Moorcock, Leiber or Kearney. Stay also away from the myths: the Iliad, the Mahabharata, Water Margin, the Nibelung saga or the Jomsvikings saga, whatever, they would make your head explode. Oh, also, the Silmarillion would not be good either.

It's not because it's in the fantasy genre that every book has to give you sugar-heavy escapism.

But this being said, ASOIAF is not bleak, it's a typical Fantasy story, at the heart: Nobles "good guy" kids lose everything, including family, go through hardships, grow into awesomeness thanks to a series of unlikely encounters and magic, then come back to kick the dark lord's ass, and take back what was theirs (or not) while they're at it. That Martin chose to show what is normally glossed upon is merely a commentary on the genre itself.

For the absence of justice, I don't see it: We have what, three good guys dying and two antagonists being on top, but on the whole good guys are heavily on the upswing, while the antagonists already lost way more than them, and are going to lose even more in the future. About every family that went against the Starks is currently crashing and burning, and the kids are not even involved yet...

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Hey, OP, let me get this straight: You think Dany and Arya are the same character, that you've been reading about the adventures of a suicidal guy called Rob Snow, that Joffrey was the arch-nemesis of the Stark family, that Ser Dontos killed him, and that Walder Frey lives in a sex dungeon?

... Are you by any chance reading a Chinese edition that you bought in a back alley from some guy who sold books from his suitcase? Yes? Ah.

SamwiseG:

the cruelty and immense brutality of the scenes Seems out of proportion. Some scenes of Aryas and Sansas ordeal have the quality and intensity of WWII concentration camp tortures. Is that appropriate for a fantasy story?

Absolutely. It may seem incomprehensible to you, but the feelings of fear, horror, shock, ominous foreboding that is so intense that I can hardly go on reading, anger, rage, glee, suspense, joy, surprise, hilarity, and "yes! *fistpump and victory dance*" are all feelings I expect from a fantasy book. Anything else would be boring. And I just don't find some bland scene where the designated hero is taken captive and rescued moments later by friends before anything happens to him (as readers knew would happen all along) to be very suspenseful or scary, or a villain who never gains the upper hand to be very hateable, or a victory that was never in doubt to feel that great.

Yes, Cat prevents Brans murder, and yes, Bran does awake and eventually the cruel facts of his fall come to light - to achieve what? Nothing. I was hoping all the time of course that this will become public to prevent further evil and get those involved ostracised. Does any of that happen? 2000 pages further on, only a lot of more evil has met the suffering Starks. Cat captures a Lannister- Tyrion- great. Any retribution? No, he is set free.

I find it odd that you call out for justice in this series, but at the same time are disappointed that the characters don't get punished for crimes they didn't commit.

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Wow, that's a lot of negative energy you got there! I for one felt the opposite when I finished the third book. The carnage for the Starks has reached terminal velocity. The remaining are all on the rise, and you watch the people who brought them down implode due to their own evil. But you won't get to read about that anymore, would you.

Anyway, to each their own.

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That is a funny post, but in all honesty although obviouslyI don't agree with all of it, I do think GRRM overplays the "Killing off the heroes" card.

It's now become quite cliche (within the series) to expect a protagonist to be killed off. The way he spreads it out over his books is also a little suspicious from a commercial point of view. No it's not a "happily ever after" series, but it seems that he actually revels in killing off characters that are generally liked.

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He was never shooting for a balancing act. That would just be predictable and boring, in my opinion.

What was enjoyable, I think, was seeing how each of these characters rise to the occasion and deal with their certain situations. So while Tyrion was practically on top in ACoK, and then promptly cast down again, I found his ASoS arc a lot more compelling. Oh and "the wolves will come again," as Jojen says, so I don't think the Starks will always be at the bottom.

Appropriate? For this fantasy story? Yes. What does he achieve by these descriptions? That it's a tough and brutal world, not too unlike our own, where the usual predicatablity of typical plots is cast aside for someone more unpredictable and more realistic.

I think you're just reading the wrong series, to be honest. I felt angry, depressed, sad, and pissed off at a lot of events, but at the end of the book, it was all overcome by the feeling that I just read one of the greatest works in the genre. I actually think there was a whole lot more positive in the book (in terms of character arcs) than there were negatives.

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Well, I hope yet against belief that its not the "wrong" series of books for me. Haven't come to the end of ASoS - Blood and Gold yet, did not touch it for four days since reading the RW. Appreciate everyone here trying to be positive

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Hey, OP, let me get this straight: You think Dany and Arya are the same character, that you've been reading about the adventures of a suicidal guy called Rob Snow, that Joffrey was the arch-nemesis of the Stark family, that Ser Dontos killed him, and that Walder Frey lives in a sex dungeon?

... Are you by any chance reading a Chinese edition that you bought in a back alley from some guy who sold books from his suitcase? Yes? Ah.

SamwiseG:

Absolutely. It may seem incomprehensible to you, but the feelings of fear, horror, shock, ominous foreboding that is so intense that I can hardly go on reading, anger, rage, glee, suspense, joy, surprise, hilarity, and "yes! *fistpump and victory dance*" are all feelings I expect from a fantasy book. Anything else would be boring. And I just don't find some bland scene where the designated hero is taken captive and rescued moments later by friends before anything happens to him (as readers knew would happen all along) to be very suspenseful or scary, or a villain who never gains the upper hand to be very hateable, or a victory that was never in doubt to feel that great.

I find it odd that you call out for justice in this series, but at the same time are disappointed that the characters don't get punished for crimes they didn't commit.

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Honestly, I was upset by the Red Wedding, but I was far angrier and upset when I thought Bran and Rickon were dead... I told myself i would stop reading, but i flipped through the book and saw "Bran" as one of the chapters so i kept going...

Mind you I was truly taken back by the whole red wedding event... I went back to the chapter in Game of Thrones when Robb goes into Bran's room and holds his hand and I cried... but i kept reading and thought it was an incredible ride

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Hey, OP, let me get this straight: You think Dany and Arya are the same character, that you've been reading about the adventures of a suicidal guy called Rob Snow, that Joffrey was the arch-nemesis of the Stark family, that Ser Dontos killed him, and that Walder Frey lives in a sex dungeon?

... Are you by any chance reading a Chinese edition that you bought in a back alley from some guy who sold books from his suitcase? Yes? Ah.

SamwiseG:

Absolutely. It may seem incomprehensible to you, but the feelings of fear, horror, shock, ominous foreboding that is so intense that I can hardly go on reading, anger, rage, glee, suspense, joy, surprise, hilarity, and "yes! *fistpump and victory dance*" are all feelings I expect from a fantasy book. Anything else would be boring. And I just don't find some bland scene where the designated hero is taken captive and rescued moments later by friends before anything happens to him (as readers knew would happen all along) to be very suspenseful or scary, or a villain who never gains the upper hand to be very hateable, or a victory that was never in doubt to feel that great.

I find it odd that you call out for justice in this series, but at the same time are disappointed that the characters don't get punished for crimes they didn't commit.

Not quite sure about the OP bit, better skip this.

Agree on the "rise to the occasion" bit, characters in themselves are of amazing subtely.

Concerning the blood and gore cruelty I see that some readers appear to need this - I certainly dont, suppose I appreciate a subtler and a bit more skilled way to evoke horrors in the readers own mind without getting overly explicit. Not seen enough cruelty in the world around us? I for my part am saturated already.

Tyrion may not have committed an evil deed I know of (yet?), but his capture would have been a fair opportunity to keep the Lannisters in check if held as hostage. Fairness may have been a more appropriate term than justice here, but for the "reality" fans it wouldnt make a difference.

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I don't think the OP is coming back, they did they're trolling and ranting and are us gone, as Sam Tarly's viginity. We all some fun and some laughs, but all of us pointing out how messed up this person is, is no fun when they aint coming back.

I say we let this thread die a slow painful death, like Joffrey :)

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