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Whataletdown

Completely disappointed, can't go on

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Well then, you can stop reading the books. And never get close to anything written by Abercrombie, Bakker, KJ Parker, Erikson, Moorcock, Leiber or Kearney. Stay also away from the myths: the Iliad, the Mahabharata, Water Margin, the Nibelung saga or the Jomsvikings saga, whatever, they would make your head explode. Oh, also, the Silmarillion would not be good either.

It's not because it's in the fantasy genre that every book has to give you sugar-heavy escapism.

But this being said, ASOIAF is not bleak, it's a typical Fantasy story, at the heart: Nobles "good guy" kids lose everything, including family, go through hardships, grow into awesomeness thanks to a series of unlikely encounters and magic, then come back to kick the dark lord's ass, and take back what was theirs (or not) while they're at it. That Martin chose to show what is normally glossed upon is merely a commentary on the genre itself.

For the absence of justice, I don't see it: We have what, three good guys dying and two antagonists being on top, but on the whole good guys are heavily on the upswing, while the antagonists already lost way more than them, and are going to lose even more in the future. About every family that went against the Starks is currently crashing and burning, and the kids are not even involved yet...

Yeah, this saga may not be entirely my pot (too big for a cup) of tea in the end. I expect books to ultimately convey some sort of positive/ constructive message - shouldnt complain, of course, there's a universe of alternative stories out there.

Should the books carry some sort of hint or warning? "only for the toughminded and very stouthearted"? Difficult to judge in advance what one's committing to by reading between the lines of 4000+ pages.

Anyway, lets see at the end what message remains, still need to finish book 3b eventually

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I cackle with rapturous glee whenever I hear of another vag dropping the series because Martin killed yet another one of his amazing characters. Thanks for lending us hardcore mf'ers more street cred.

The brilliance of the RW only made me want to read more. Gritty reality a little much for you? Stick to Tolkien :)

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I cackle with rapturous glee whenever I hear of another vag dropping the series because Martin killed yet another one of his amazing characters. Thanks for lending us hardcore mf'ers more street cred.

True.

Such street cred as say the similarly tough minded regular Sun readers enjoy ;)

You're right, I'm sticking with JRRT, and the couple of million alternative stories out there.

It's surprising how one can not miss reading the story any further. Thought that would be more challenging.

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When you proclaim that GRRM should give the readers what they want, which readers are you specifically referring to? Because I LOVED the Red Wedding chapter, and not just in hindsight. The first half of Storm of Swords (aka "Everyone Gets a Girlfriend") was very slow and repetitive for me (okay we get it, Catelyn haz a sad). Most people told me it was their favorite novel in the series, and I was beginning to wonder what all the hype was about as up to that point it was my least enjoyed. I was sleep reading through the novel, and the Red Wedding reached across the page and slapped me awake. That's when I knew shizz was 'bout to get real in the 2nd half of the book. Sure enough, Storm ended up as my favorite book as well.

People act like GRRM goes out of his way to kill main characters for shock value. If you have a narrative with 15-20 main characters set in time of rampant civil war and mass genocide and a couple of them don't fall by the way side, you're not telling a very proper story. Just because it's a fantasy novel doesn't mean it has to be a fairy tale.

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Although I disagree with OP, he clearly put a lot of effort into that post, so I will respond likewise:

After Martin's so-called "Red Wedding" I just can't read any more of this book series. He has lost a loyal fan and reader and will not be receiving anymore support, financial or otherwise, from me.

That is fine. The Red Wedding was, imo, one of the greatest things I have ever read in a mainstream book, but, to each their own. So far so good.

Sansa didn't get to take her revenge on Joffrey, as she should have. MAJOR points off for that, Martin. She lost everything to and was abused by him, and this character that Martin LABORIOUSLY created and allowed us to follow not ONLY did not get the chance to kill her nemesis, she did NOTHING but stand there helpless (as she always does, very 1-dimensional and boring character, I have come to realize after this series of events. Seriously, try real hard to think of literally anything this character can do besides sit helplessly while her family is killed and then badmouth them). What's worse, Joffrey didn't die to Stark hands, as would have been the most pleasing to readers. Instead, he's quickly and (in the book's presentation) anti-climatically dispatched by a very minor character who himself is killed shortly after. Martin, you spent THREE BOOKS building up this monster, and instead of rewarding your readers with the revenge you knew we all wanted, you unceremoniously dashed him out of the picture and made way for your latest stupid "intrigue" machinations.

..."should" have. ?? I didn't realize that Martin "should" do anything when writing his books. If anything, I am happy the fairy-tale lover didn't get revenge. I quite enjoyed Joffrey's over-the-top tormenting of her. I don't see what's wrong with having helpless characters. And really, it's not because she's a girl. Arya is her sister, and does lots of stuff.

Also, I, as a reader, would not have found it pleasing if Joffrey died at Stark hands. I don't like the Starks, so I was glad a third-party took him out. As for "spending three books building up a monster" - well, yes, three books, but not three children's fairy tale books. Why must things go perfectly?

Okay, we get it. You think you're the new god of fantastical politics. You know what? I've read three of these damned books, and the intrigue isn't that gripping. It's mostly a lot of empty fluff chapters with characters like Davos who were invented for NO MORE reason than to space out the Arya and Catelyn chapters. It's not intrigue, it's just asinine mouth diarrhea over fancy tables while everyone talks about who's being married to and killed by whom. Just because you can show us Tyrion talking murder with his father and then hundreds of pages later a gruesome battle occurs, doesn't mean you're AT ALL skilled in this genre. Really just absolutely exhausted with reading pages upon pages of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENING and then innocent people or major characters are killed off in horrific and demeaning murders. It's all just unrewarding rubbish.

I don't know if Martin thinks he is the "god" of fantastical politics, but he is pretty good at writing them, I'd say. I think Davos was invented so would get a look at the goings-on with Stannis, an important side plot. It could just as easily have been done with a Stannis, Edric, or Stannis' daughter POV, but I think Martin wanted to include some POV charactesr a little loewr on the social ladder.

That last sentence seems contradictory. First, nothing happens. Then, too much happens? I can't see how these two things could be a simultaneous issue?

Also, what's wrong with innocnet people and major characters dying in horiffic and demeaning murders? What makes that unrewarding rubbish? Personally, I love that, and wish there were more in the books. You say this sentence as if it is obviously true, but I honestly can't see what you're complaining about. I would have thought that the grittiness makes thes books better? Also, some bad guys die badly, I point to Amory Lorch for instance.

So okay, Sansa didn't get to kill Joffrey. Life's unfair then you die. WE GET IT. WE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HATE LIFE AND EVERYONE IN IT AND ABOVE ALL WOMEN. Can you let us read the fucking book now? No? Why not? What's that? You have plans for a horrible Red Wedding? Okay, tell us all about it!

I really don't think Martin is the misanthrope (or even misogynist) you make him out to be. He seems like a nice guy in interviews. Also, the things he writes are fantasy, not what he wants reality to be. And I don't see how you think he hates women? That bears elaborating, methinks.

It totally makes sense that Robb would stride cheerfully into the sex dungeon of the bloody-mouthed psychopath because he's marrying his uncle off to the guy's family, no matter that he "broke his word" (who cares whether this is true or not, I'm sure that bloody-mouthed psychopath is completely trustworthy and doesn't even remember you betraying him!) and kills his victims without remorse! Okay, I'm totally with you, Martin. I TOTALLY believe that this is something Robb and Catelyn would do. Oh and leave the dog outside, too. His paws are probably dirty.

It TOTALLY makes sense that Catelyn and Robb would pretty much just stand there slackjawed and dim-witted while musicians pull out crossbows. It TOTALLY makes sense than instead of fleeing this EXTREMELY OBVIOUS AMBUSH Catelyn and Robb will just sit there and talk shop with their adversaries.

It does make sense. Robb did have more of a sense for battle than a sense for politics. And also, I was so impressed and surprised by this scene, I didn't even pause to think if it was realistic. I was just SO HAPPY that TWO MORE STARKS DIED IN ONE CHAPTER that I could have danced naked on my roof.

But all that obviously very sense-making logic aside, why would you build up this lovable mother in Catelyn stark over 3 books just to LITERALLY drive her mad with despair over the murders of all of her children (even though all her kids aren't dead, she went mad for no reason, delicious, tee hee!!), have her kill an innocent person and then get her throat slit by a character so minor we don't even get the name?

Why not?

Yes, you have described the scene correctly. Yes, you have established you don't like it. But you haven't said why. I read the same scene and thought it was awesome, and it made me grin ear-to-ear.

So let me get this straight, George Martin.

In your untalented, disgusting, piece of SHIT book series, you are making LOUD proclamations that you have every intention of killing off characters we will come to love, you will NOT allow us the payload from BOOKS' WORTH of buildup, you will NOT let the good guys win, you will NOT let any of the bad guys get what they deserve and you WILL try to redeem as many hateful "bad guys" as you possibly can, only to either kill them off or have them kill other characters we love (What's that? I don't hate Jaime anymore even though he tried to kill Bran? Because why? Because he's a good guy now? Okay, I'm fine with trading revenge I've been wanting for 2 books for a mediocre character who I'm SURE will reward me as a reader).

First of all, you are aware fictional characters and not real people, right? Like, if they die, it should not affect your real life, right? Good.

Also, if this is an issue for you, were you not aware that this was a well-known thing about these books? I was, it was what drew me too them.

As for "not letting the good guys win." I doubt he won't. I am HOPING BEYOND HOPE that the Starks will die gruesome deaths, and that either people like Gregor Clegance and Vargo Hoat become the kings and lords of Westeros, OR that the Eastern slave traders will make a resurgance and enslave Westeros, but this is unlikely. Martin does have the balls to kill a lot of main characters, but I doubt he has the balls to completely and utterly destroy every shred of decency anyone in Westeros has.

So WHY THE FUCK would I read any more of a book series full of nothing but let-downs? What is there to stick with? Who is there to follow?

Who's left?

I agree. In your case, you should probably stop. You clearly don't enjoy the books, for the same reasons I do enjoy them, and kill keep reading them.

Arya, Bran, Sansa, Rob Snow. Okay, let's just take a look at that.

Daenerys slips on a banana peel and breaks her neck, killing her instantly. Martin spends the next 3 pages describing in detail her mangled body and how she defecated when she died. Oh, and then she gets a dead wolf's head sewn onto her body. Wait no, scratch that. Make it a baby dragon, since she felt really strongly about those things. Oh, and then all her friends and family are brutally murdered, go mad with despair, or kill themselves.

Bran, fresh from shoving his "foot" into Hodor's "boot" (absolutely no homosexual undertones there so it's fine), can't control his power anymore and takes over Arya, making her go mad with despair and kill herself. Then Nymeria's head is sewn onto her corpse. She never sees her mother or family again.

Sansa learns statecraft and becomes a duchess, then goes mad with despair and has Lady's head sewn onto her body (I know Lady's been dead for 2 books, but Robb walked right into the Red Wedding, so obviously logic is not being employed here). Oh, and then for some reason she slips on a banana peel and breaks her neck.

Rob Snow just plain kills himself.

Who's left? Is Bran still alive? Okay, he kills himself too after the whole mad with despair and banana peel thing.

Then finally in the last few pages of book 7, all that's left of the Starks is little Rick, age 18 months and still squealing for his mommy (who's dead twice over, hurrah!). He's being brutally tortured by the Lannisters, most of his skin flayed off and his eyes poked out and all his fingernails cut in half on the finger. He's still too young to speak, but being tortured anyway because that's how "brave" this author is. It is then revealed that one of his family members is still alive---

and the 7th book ends there, on a huge cliffhanger, none of us sure whether the Stark family still lives.

First of all, it's Jon Snow.

Second of all, what you described would be awesome. But NO WAY IN HELL will the series go that route, as great at that would be. I think you are giving Martin more credit that he deserves, he wouldn't go that far.

I'm George Martin, what a talented and acclaimed and above all BRAVE author I am for killing off all my characters and making you follow along for 7 expensive books (these royalties put my fat children through private school, you slovenly pigs!) just to get absolutely no satisfaction at all for all the negative emotions I made you feel! Want to know how I did it?? I took an ex-lax and an imodium simultaneously and let them fight it out in there, then I took a BIG OL SHIT and SPOONFED IT TO YOU over 100 dollars' worth of sequels so I could laugh at how frustrated you all must be! Long live me, George Martin, and my immortal work, How I Got You Noobs To Eat My Shit For 10 Years!

Well, I really don't see what you're saying here, but if you are complaining about book prices, I agree. I recommend Wal-Mart or Amazon.com, you can easily get up to 50% or so off, on day one.

And I think you do not realize that some readers (such as myself) DO get satisfaction from these books.

In summary, I respect your opinion, even if mine happens to be the diametric opposite. I suggest you stop reading this books, and perhaps pick up some Disney-fied fairy tales, where the good guys always win. I also think you should realize not everyone has the same opinion as you, and like things you do not, and vice versa.

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Also, I should note, good sir, that I had my disapointments too (spoilers up to end of book 3...the very end, in fact).

Viserys dying. He was my favorite overall character, and you just KNEW he was going to be killed, but so early in the series (Book 1), and by that bitch Khal Drogo?

Tywin dying. My favorite living character between the death of Viserys and his own death. To die is such an undignified way, it was too bad. I had hoped he would survive the series.

Infighting amongst the Lannisters. Too much of this, they all hate each other, and from where I stand it would appear the twincest is over. I don't know how the lions plan on taking out the Starks if they engage in so much petty rivalry.

Catelyn turning out to be alive. The level of aghastness and disapointness I had as I read the last page of this book are hard to imagine. Almost enough to match the original post of this topic! (well, maybe not quite)

Various instances of "good guy" characters narrowly escaping especially cruel or unusal misfortunes.

Osha not being a POV character. Rickon is certainly my favorite Stark (well, maybe Benjen), not that that is saying much, and I would like to know what he's up to.

Gregor Clegane NOT winning the tourney in book 1. Although I guess the fact that his brother won is good too. I'm glad it was Sandor, and not that Loras, who took out Jaime, at least.

Martin mentioning wooly mammoths, and taking three books for us to see them!!

Martin mentioning cannibals who live on the ice rivers, and still not a description of these guys roasting some Men of the Nights Watch and/or Non-Ice-River-Cannibal-Wildings, and eating them.

Craster dying. Come on. That character was hilariously evilly over-the-top, and died in the stupidest way. I don't buy that THAT few Men of the Nights Watch had honor. Like, seriously, guys. EVEN IF he had more food, he has NO obligation to give it to you, it is his.

Did I mention the fact that Viserys died way to early yet?

Nevertheless, I still enjoy the series a lot, those are all minor complaints (really, the only complaints I can think of for the series), but I felt I would demonstrate that I don't think a book has to be perfect to be good.

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Typically, I would guess he hasn't read the books, but the fact that he could describe somewhat in-depth what goes on really makes it seem as though he has read them, but just doesn't care enough to remember.

Frankly, I don't know why he would read past Book 1. I totally respect his opinion to not like the books,but, sir, please do not force yourself! Surely there are better things to do than read books you don't like. I could suggest the Narnia books for you (you probably have read them, but in case), they are fantasy (with a real world component). They do have lots of Christian themes, so if for some reason that offends you, then don't bother.

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leroy harford,

You're a bit nuts, lol. What do you have against the Starks?

I personally was devastated by the Red Wedding, but I kept reading.

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Typically, I would guess he hasn't read the books, but the fact that he could describe somewhat in-depth what goes on really makes it seem as though he has read them, but just doesn't care enough to remember.

Frankly, I don't know why he would read past Book 1. I totally respect his opinion to not like the books,but, sir, please do not force yourself! Surely there are better things to do than read books you don't like. I could suggest the Narnia books for you (you probably have read them, but in case), they are fantasy (with a real world component). They do have lots of Christian themes, so if for some reason that offends you, then don't bother.

How could respect the opinion of the original Poster, that was the most nonsensical rambling i have every seen. Granted it was hilarious and gave me several minutes of amusement. Any real purpose of his views, were destroyed by his ranting and raving like a loon.

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Robb would stride cheerfully into the sex dungeon of the bloody-mouthed psychopath

Ooh ho ho!

*Wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

Say no more! Say no more! You saucy mink you!

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You're a bit nuts, lol. What do you have against the Starks?

Must admit the Robb and Catelyn leave me a bit cold.

Robb not being a POV character means you don't really get to know him and Cat, well it's all her fault in the first place.

Reading a bit further on

I was more upset by the death of Ygritte than Cat and Robb.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow!"

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That original post was the most hilarious, rambling, awesome thing I've ever read concerning ASOIAF. I disagree with almost everything he said, but I genuinely want to hear more about what else gets sewn on to everybody's bodies.

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leroy harford,

You're a bit nuts, lol. What do you have against the Starks?

They're the good guys.

Or at least as close to it as this series offers.

I do kind of like Rickon, because of all the cute shenanigans he and Shaggy get into when they are still at Winterfell. I am hoping that he is captured by Freys, and then they brainwash him against his own family, and then *SPOILERS* he kills Cat for real *END SPOILERS*.

How could respect the opinion of the original Poster, that was the most nonsensical rambling i have every seen. Granted it was hilarious and gave me several minutes of amusement. Any real purpose of his views, were destroyed by his ranting and raving like a loon.

How can I respect his opinion? I don't know, but it was so hilarious that maybe I confused amusement and awe for repsect. But really, it is possible to respect someone who disagrees with you.

Must admit the Robb and Catelyn leave me a bit cold.

Robb not being a POV character means you don't really get to know him and Cat, well it's all her fault in the first place.

Reading a bit further on

I was more upset by the death of Ygritte than Cat and Robb.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow!"

It's true, inasmuch as Robb should be a POV character. Reading about a battle from the outsider's perspective, as happened 1 or twice with Cat, really isn't the same as being in it.

I can't really respect someone who falls in love with Jeyne Westerling when they were pledged to a Frey, AND THEN ACTS ON THAT LOVE. Shame on you, Robb. It's worse because it was a Stark who did it, they are supposed to have "honor" or whatever. If a "bad guy" character did it, I would be less mad, because they typically don't have "honor" - but then, real bad guys don't fall in love.

Incidentally, *SPOILERS* I was more upset with Gregor Clegane almost losing a fight, Catelyn coming back to life, and (this is the thing that almost made me stop reading) Tywin dying, than the Red Wedding *END SPOILERS*.

That original post was the most hilarious, rambling, awesome thing I've ever read concerning ASOIAF. I disagree with almost everything he said, but I genuinely want to hear more about what else gets sewn on to everybody's bodies.

Oh, yes.

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To Whataletdown,

I felt similarly to you after the red wedding. I came very close to just stopping but somehow I continued on and I was glad I did. There is some nice satisfaction at the very end of the book which made me really feel great anticipation for book #4.

That said, if you think you are disappointed now, wait till you hit #4. All the renewed energy for the series seems to have drained out of me almost as soon as I started with this one. I'm really hitting a road block. I read some reviews on amazon about it. I'd recommend you read the review entitled something about a statistician. It will really clue you in about what awaits.

What I've read is that he was under pressure with #4 to come out with something and that is what he did, come out with something...a lot of filler, which I think he is generally guilty of anyway. They also talked about how book #5 brings us back to the characters we're interested in. I'm hoping they're right.

If you can, I'd recommend you finish #3. I think you'll be glad you did. Just my opinion. Good luck.

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