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Jon Snow’s (possible) reign


Ice Turtle

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Re: Shaggydog and Brashcandy

I believe in the same theory as you Shaggy, and about Benjen too. But yes, it's getting old discussing it so I'm all for some new speculation!

So let's jump into the ocean of highly speculative theories! No safety nets...

Maybe Lyanna didn't want Dayne remembered as a traitor so he kept it secret to save Daynes honour? (I know it's far-fetched ;) )

Wouldn't Ned be too honourable to have Howland Reed help him kill Dayne? Unless he did try on his own and Howland jumped in at last minute to save Ned... Ponderous questions indeed...

I would love if it was Benjen in Winterfell, it was my first thought reading it, but knowing the style of GRRM, it's almost never that easy. We discussed in another thread that the words "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" should be more than just words... And I vaguely remember talk of the crypts leading out somwhere outside Winterfell, so there is a way in probably...

Oh yeah the Children creep me out too, I'm fearing for Bran, and I don't like that Meera and Jojen disappeared all of a sudden. What with the bloodsacrifices Davos was told about, that Bran saw a man killed in front of the heart-tree in Winterfell (seemed a long time ago but still...) and the weir-paste that looked like it had blood in it... I don't think the children are the saviours at all. And Bran soon is trapped in the cave, I just want to get him out really fast! Or maybe GRRM is just winding us up :angry:

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Re: Shaggydog and Brashcandy

I believe in the same theory as you Shaggy, and about Benjen too. But yes, it's getting old discussing it so I'm all for some new speculation!

So let's jump into the ocean of highly speculative theories! No safety nets...

Maybe Lyanna didn't want Dayne remembered as a traitor so he kept it secret to save Daynes honour? (I know it's far-fetched ;) )

Wouldn't Ned be too honourable to have Howland Reed help him kill Dayne? Unless he did try on his own and Howland jumped in at last minute to save Ned... Ponderous questions indeed...

Ok! I'm with you Eira, let's jump into this crackpot! Shaggy, come on board :)

Now, I'm thinking that Rhaegar would not have been Lyanna's style... I mean he kinda remains me of Loras a bit, all great looks, yaayadayaada... plus the man was obsessed with prophecy... if he is indeed Jon's father, Lyanna probably whispered.. "Promise me Ned... don't let him be like Rhaegar" :)

Ok, so the problem with Dayne is that he was a KG, i.e. sworn not to have relations, etc etc..so in some ways he's just as scandalous as the situation with Rhaegar/Elia.

How old was Dayne by the way, older or younger than Rhaegar?

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Oh and on the issue of CotF

It would fit symmetrically if the truest followers of the Old gods where a bit insane, just as the R'hollor freaks.

Religions in the opposite extremes sort of (Ice and Fire), but with many common denominators. Specifically the creepiest ones in common.

But then there is of course our Jon, with a little bit of both worlds in him. That will save us all! Hooray!

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Oh and on the issue of CotF

It would fit symmetrically if the truest followers of the Old gods where a bit insane, just as the R'hollor freaks.

Religions in the opposite extremes sort of (Ice and Fire), but with many common denominators. Specifically the creepiest ones in common.

But then there is of course our Jon, with a little bit of both worlds in him. That will save us all! Hooray!

Indeed! Religious fanatics on both sides of the fence... but Jon is all about religious tolerance... those Children are probably planning on some takeover... just like the Rh'llor freaks...

Jon will save the day though! ;)

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Gods. You guys realize at all that there is a fundamental difference between being King in the North and King of the Wildlings??? One of them is the small matter of your kingship being supported by a feudal system - or not. Can't have both, and you can't have both of it in your heart. Jon is Ned's son, one way or another. Under him, the free folk would be nothing but another bunch of kneelers in no time, paying taxes, paying tribute and having laws and lords, freedom be damned.

I'm not sure, the Wildlings would not have to kneel and be subject to the same system, even if they see him as their king too. In the future they will have the Gift to live on, quite a big stretch of land, and they could still be free. The Clans in the north seem to have some freedom but they are still loyal to the Starks. The wildlings are already loyal to Jon, so I don't see how it must change.

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I'm not sure, the Wildlings would not have to kneel and be subject to the same system, even if they see him as their king too. In the future they will have the Gift to live on, quite a big stretch of land, and they could still be free. The Clans in the north seem to have some freedom but they are still loyal to the Starks. The wildlings are already loyal to Jon, so I don't see how it must change.

Exactly - not to mention that by simply agreeing to cross the Wall and be integrated into Northern society, they have de facto agreed to these things. Remember the jewelery and other things Jon took from them? Sounds like a tax to me... The only thing they won't do is kneel, and as the King, Jon wouldn't require them too.

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Ok! I'm with you Eira, let's jump into this crackpot! Shaggy, come on board :)

Now, I'm thinking that Rhaegar would not have been Lyanna's style... I mean he kinda remains me of Loras a bit, all great looks, yaayadayaada... plus the man was obsessed with prophecy... if he is indeed Jon's father, Lyanna probably whispered.. "Promise me Ned... don't let him be like Rhaegar" :)

Ok, so the problem with Dayne is that he was a KG, i.e. sworn not to have relations, etc etc..so in some ways he's just as scandalous as the situation with Rhaegar/Elia.

How old was Dayne by the way, older or younger than Rhaegar?

Hehe Rhaegar did seem like a bit of a ennoying know-it-all, well groomed and charming prince kind of guy. I think Lyanna liked guys a bit more scruffy and bearded, bad tempered and wild. Someone to have a good swordfight with, not someone who reads her poetry.

But opposites do attract I believe. Hm... I just can't see her getting past the whole prophecy deal. Maybe Rhaegar was like a religious sect leader, they can be quite magnetic from what I've heard.

And she was very young... But still a She-wolf of the north! It makes no sense.

I tried to find out his age, but it's never mentioned I think, he was brother to Ashara, and little brother to Edrics father so he could not have been very old I think, probably about Neds age or a bit older is my guess.

Hm, I also found that the Daynes is not of Valyrian blood. I wonder if that specific info actually has been changed in the Citadel, I was sure I saw it mentioned that they were from Valyria too...

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Yeah that's the thing - unless Rhaegar completely fooled her and didn't tell her about his fanatical interest in prophecies until the bedding ... "oh and I've just gotten you pregnant with the third head of the dragon"... somehow that conversation might be awkward :)

The thing is that Lyanna doesn't seem like the kind of girl who would be so easily fooled, so if she ran off with Rhaegar she had to have good reason for it....

Now as for the Daynes... we have the speculation that

Septa Lemore might actually be Ashara... so maybe she too knows something about the whole Lyanna/Ned/Rhaegar/Arthur conspiracy

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Yeah that's the thing - unless Rhaegar completely fooled her and didn't tell her about his fanatical interest in prophecies until the bedding ... "oh and I've just gotten you pregnant with the third head of the dragon"... somehow that conversation might be awkward :)

The thing is that Lyanna doesn't seem like the kind of girl who would be so easily fooled, so if she ran off with Rhaegar she had to have good reason for it....

Now as for the Daynes... we have the speculation that

Septa Lemore might actually be Ashara... so maybe she too knows something about the whole Lyanna/Ned/Rhaegar/Arthur conspiracy

Awkward pillow-talk indeed.

Cuddling and kissing in the Tower of Joy...

Rhaegar: Oh I have to tell you something...

Lyanna: what my lovely love?

Rhaegar: We have to make a child.

Lyanna: Sure, it's gonna happen eventually if we keep this up *snicker* would you rather have a boy or a girl?

Rhaegar: A boy definitely. For all Gods sake, not another girl!

Lyanna: OK, thats a bit biased, whats wrong with a girl if I may ask? *angry she-wolf stare*

Rhaegar: Well, it has to be a boy so he can be... eh...promise not to laugh? The Prince that was Promised... No pressure though! It is known.

Lyanna: *big saucer eyes* Say what? The prince that what now?

Rhaegar: *squirming quite a bit* Well it's a bit hard to explain, but here we go - A prophecy I believe says I need to father a child, a boy, by a girl from the north, a Wolf actually, hence you! he he hrmm, *feeling uncomfortable to the max* but I'm sure he will save the world. His song will be The Song of Ice and Fire!!! I already wrote it, lalalalaaa prince lalalalalaaa Ice and Fire lalaaa... See, I wrote him a song!...... Please don't hurt me...

Lyanna throws a fit and... they lived happily... ever after. hrmmm.

Or if he thought Jon was just a head of the dragon, just exchange the prince-parts with dragon-parts... heh

I heard about that Ashara theory too, and it's really fitting and believable. But I think enough people from the past is popping up from the "dead" unexpectedly... I would be nice for the readers to get some proper back-story from her. But then just about no one can be considered actually dead, and that is just tiring!

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That is a great question however the answer isn't as simple. You cant look at it from one perspective as "What will Jon do". You have to see it from the perspectives of the other pieces of the game of thrones also. What they do affects what actions Jon will take so it cant be clear what will happen until you analyze what the other characters do, and draw a valid conclusion that Jon might also think of. From the last chapter of Jon's in DwD he gets the letter from Ramsey and since he still believes Jeyne to be Arya he will need to go and rescue her. This is really the only thing we can be sure he will do, and that is taking for granted he will be alive. I for one believe he will, but he is also my favorite character so its a bit biased.

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Re: Brashcandy

The theory about Septa L

Is this theory based on Young Griff being the child of Ned and Ashara or just that YG is actually Aegon and Ashara is doing her duty protecting her best friend Elias child? If we follow along the lines that Jon is Neds and Asharas, I see no real reason for Septa Lemore being Ashara, I can't see the reason for faking her own death and abandoning her own child. That's really unlikely.

If Jon is Rhaegars son by Lyanna and YG is actually Aegon, I can see that Ashara would go with him. But really I wonder if Septa Lemore will turn up again?

I really subscribe to the theory that Aegon is a Blackfyre, since that "dragons bright and dark"... There's been so much emphases on the Blackfyre rebellion (I haven't read Egg & Dunk but picked up much of it anyway here on Westeros). And with Bloodraven turning up it makes much sense.

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Re: Brashcandy

The theory about Septa L

Is this theory based on Young Griff being the child of Ned and Ashara or just that YG is actually Aegon and Ashara is doing her duty protecting her best friend Elias child? If we follow along the lines that Jon is Neds and Asharas, I see no real reason for Septa Lemore being Ashara, I can't see the reason for faking her own death and abandoning her own child. That's really unlikely.

If Jon is Rhaegars son by Lyanna and YG is actually Aegon, I can see that Ashara would go with him. But really I wonder if Septa Lemore will turn up again?

I really subscribe to the theory that Aegon is a Blackfyre, since that "dragons bright and dark"... There's been so much emphases on the Blackfyre rebellion (I haven't read Egg & Dunk but picked up much of it anyway here on Westeros). And with Bloodraven turning up it makes much sense.

If Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne, then Jon Connington who presumably knew Ashara when she was Elia's lady in waiting, would think of her as "Septa/Lady Ashara, rather than Lady Lemore"

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Such an interesting thread, because primarily, it appears to me that he doesn't desire to be a ruler as much as other characters do. Contrast with Cersei, Dany, Roose, Mace. I just don't think he'll jump at the first excuse to be lord of this and that, more so a king. There must be a reason, most certainly not because he's the son of this or that person. Not even because Robb wanted him to rule. That's just lame, and just another role handed to him on a platter. I want him to take, or more like 'grab', the role he truly wants.

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If Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne, then Jon Connington who presumably knew Ashara when she was Elia's lady in waiting, would think of her as "Septa/Lady Ashara, rather than Lady Lemore"

I agree

At first it seemed strange to me that he would call her Lady Lemore, but there are circumstances in which this seems to be the common courtesy. Like for Lady Melisandre for instance. So maybe because he knows her well and doesn't see her as only a septa any more.

But I don't think there is much to the theory that she is Ashara. I think she was put in the story for there to be a beautiful woman in Tyrions travelogue, to create some "spark" in an otherwise pretty event-less journey...

re: Mike_s_6

I think so too, I really want to see him rise on his own terms and own merits. Just because he is a great leader and pretty much the only one who has a honest purpose. If he's declared King in the north it would mean a lot though, for this purpose to be achieved.

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I don't think Rhaegar had to tell Lyanna anything about the prophecy. It didn't sound like Elia knew what he was talking about. If he wanted Lyanna to be pregnant all he had to do was not give her Moon Tea imo.

I know, we were just fooling around with the idea, at least I am not in much doubt that R+L=J is correct. It was for the fun of it.

But by testing a theory by finding evidence to another theory to compare it's logic, or by trying to falsify the premisses of the theory, you can at least get to a more solid conclusion. Ridding the theory of loose ends so to speak.

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I know, we were just fooling around with the idea, at least I am not in much doubt that R+L=J is correct. It was for the fun of it.

But by testing a theory by finding evidence to another theory to compare it's logic, or by trying to falsify the premisses of the theory, you can at least get to a more solid conclusion. Ridding the theory of loose ends so to speak.

I definitely agree.

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Exactly - not to mention that by simply agreeing to cross the Wall and be integrated into Northern society, they have de facto agreed to these things. Remember the jewelery and other things Jon took from them? Sounds like a tax to me... The only thing they won't do is kneel, and as the King, Jon wouldn't require them too.

Yeah, exactly. Only thing is: they would still stop being wildlings then, and become de facto kneelers. Sad enough. But If anyone of you imagines Jon as King of the Wildlings living in a tent beyond the Wall with sexy Val and funny Tormund, having music sessions and being a free ruler over a free people: forget it.

I think Melisandre was right when she said the free folk was a doomed people. They will be assimilated into the realm sooner or later, I guess this is true, but they won't have Jon as their private wildling king then, that's ridiculous. Most likely they will have Jon (or some Stark) as King in the North ruling over them, but not exclusively.

By the way, the wildlings still have a king, and if no one noticed, Mance has already declared not only to fight for Jon, but to give counsel, too, which is in essence the classic medieval declaration of fealty minus the kneeling, and much more than any of the wildlings promised Jon. If he is alive, he will lead the wildlings in the fight against the Others for Jon. After he dies, the surviving wildlings will become a kneeler people, each of them getting his own account at the Iron Bank of Bravos and looking forward to getting gratis toasters at the end of the year, and I will be glad Mance won't live to see that.

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I am a strong believer in the R+L=J but can appreciate

testing a theory by finding evidence to another theory to compare it's logic, or by trying to falsify the premisses of the theory, you can at least get to a more solid conclusion. Ridding the theory of loose ends so to speak.

which is an awesome way to pass the time.. and in the back and forth on this thread and the is Arthur Dayne Aegon's father theory..( I don't think he is but as you said it's interesting to try fleshing out another theory) but the point Brashcandy stated

not to mention how the hell did Ned win against the best swordsman in the land unless of course Howland Reed helped....

made me question if Arthur Dayne might not just pop up as alive later in the series.. having been in on the R+L=J and agreed to give Ned The Sword of the Morning to bring back to Starfall so his death would be ever so convincing.. ? Any thoughts on this and how he might come into the story?

And BTW as to one of my favorite characters possible reign ... I think he will continue on to Winterfell as was planned hopefully with Tormund and the wildings help.. I hope that his story archs into him coming into power in some way (I would really like him to be one of the heads of the dragon, tPtwP/AA Reborn..) and I want him to destroy the Boltons! The Freys I think will be dealt with by BWB/Lady Stoneheart as she will seek them out with a vengence for the Red Wedding..

And as to the person sneeking around Winterfell .. (I don't have my copy of aDwD with me right now) but I thought the Boltons made use of the killings to kill a few extra unwanted individuals.. are there any other signs that point to it maybe being someone else (because if it was Benjen that would be amazing)

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Yeah, exactly. Only thing is: they would still stop being wildlings then, and become de facto kneelers. Sad enough. But If anyone of you imagines Jon as King of the Wildlings living in a tent beyond the Wall with sexy Val and funny Tormund, having music sessions and being a free ruler over a free people: forget it.

I think Melisandre was right when she said the free folk was a doomed people. They will be assimilated into the realm sooner or later, I guess this is true, but they won't have Jon as their private wildling king then, that's ridiculous. Most likely they will have Jon (or some Stark) as King in the North ruling over them, but not exclusively.

By the way, the wildlings still have a king, and if no one noticed, Mance has already declared not only to fight for Jon, but to give counsel, too, which is in essence the classic medieval declaration of fealty minus the kneeling, and much more than any of the wildlings promised Jon. If he is alive, he will lead the wildlings in the fight against the Others for Jon. After he dies, the surviving wildlings will become a kneeler people, each of them getting his own account at the Iron Bank of Bravos and looking forward to getting gratis toasters at the end of the year, and I will be glad Mance won't live to see that.

Ok so from now on we will not call them the Wildlings but they shall be called "The People formerly known as the Wildlings".

If that is your problem with the reasoning we had above, I hope this will satisfy your need.

The Gift belongs to the Nights Watch, it does not fall under Winterfell jurisdiction, and since we don't know if there is a Nights Watch to speak of anymore we don't know what will become of the Gift.

We don't know what will become of the Wall either, so we can't be sure if the People formerly known as the Wildlings will go back there or if they will be integrated in the peoples of the North (south of the wall), or if they will continue to rule themselves, find their own leaders by their own traditions and so on.

We really don't know what's gonna happen to Mance, we don't even know if he will remain loyal to Jon or what he's up to at the moment.

I don't think for a second that Jon, Val and Thormund will live happily ever after the way you put it.

But I also don't think Jon will permanently end up as King in the North. He will do what he thinks is best (including calling himself king if necessary) for the peoples that have put their trust and loyalty to him, but has no desire to be king. Under his reign I think the people formerly known as the Wildlings are going to enjoy special privileges of freedom.

I'm not speculating what will happen after his death, that's for another thread I think.

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